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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • j2jj2j Posts: 147
    "FYI - Toyota/Nissan and the like both make some fine relatively luxurious vehicles but DO NOT sell in the luxury market IN THIS COUNTRY and under those particuilar brands. Hyundai is in the same position, and never will sell in the luxury market with that particular brand. Simply producing what could be defined as a luxury car does not necessarily mean that particular mfgr can have any impact in the 'luxury market'.
    While I'm sure that there are many Gen buyers who have convinced themselves that they have bought a luxury car. They are, unfortunately, fooling themselves only because such an evaluation is much more subjective than that and has little if anything to do with the car itself."


    ******

    You (as usual), contradict yourself a no. of times.

    You state that the evaluation is "much more subjective" - then in the same sentence, totally dismiss what Genesis owners actually think (i.e. - subjective).

    Once again, the most luxurious model that Toyota/Lexus has is a Toyota (and not a Lexus) - the Century.

    And all Infinitis and Acuras are sold as Nissans and Hondas in Japan (just as it was for Lexus until a few years ago).

    Anyway, this is all rather academic since Hyundai is planning to sell the 2nd gen Genesis sedan (as well as a no. of other models) under a new luxury nameplate - but it is rather ludicrous to think that the Genesis changes from a non-luxury sedan to a luxury sedan simply b/c of a change in nameplate (by this criteria, a person owning a Nissan Cima or Toyota Celsior doesn't own a luxury sedan even tho they are pretty much identical to the Infiniti Q and Lexus LS).

    While Hyundai isn't a luxury nameplate, that doesn't mean that they can't have luxury models (just as not every model that Mercedes or BMW offers qualifies as a luxury vehicle).
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,566
    The decline of the M and GS are linked to Genesis sales volumes, as well as people moving up a little. Surely some people did trade from the more upmarket makes - especially BMW as the Genesis resembles one...but I see nothing to believe that the higher line moves are as significant as others.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,566
    The Genesis is a pretty big "mid size" car, I wonder about its dimensions compared to the original LS (which no doubt was sold at a loss just to get brand footing). the 35K LS was also an anomaly - that's for a stripped cloth interior car, of which very few were made.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    The current LS (460) starts at about $65k, thus is no longer price-competitive with the likes of the C Class, 3 Series (you meant 3, not 5, yes?), and A4. But since the LS is a couple of classes above those cars (more in S Class and 7 Series territory), it's not realistic for the prices to be comparable.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,566
    70K is no more a magic number than 5er or E being an imaginary floor. The real "big boys" of the game are the S/7/A8/LS...and we know who rules that roost on a global basis.

    You made the initial claim about Japan, how about you show where your numbers come from, and then I will counter. The onus is on you, fanboy. European makers dominate countless luxury markets away from the home market - and luxury markets are what is relevant here.

    This discussion was never about total brand sales, but luxury cars...so trying to distract with total sales of Toyota is a weak ploy. How do the Toyota luxury cars fare on the continent? We all know the answer, even if we don't want to admit it.

    Hyundai isn't going to get 20000 lux sales in Europe...I see no evidence that H is even going to sell their higher products in Europe at all - especially when the company has admitted the Equus won't be sold in Europe.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    Yes, the reason the Genesis seems like a big mid-sized car is because it isn't a mid-sized car. It's a large car, in the same EPA size class as the S Class, 7 Series and A8.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    "Big boys" in size, yes, but since when does domination of a market, as you have asserted, have to do with the size of the cars? Most of MB's, BMW's, Audi's, and Lexus' sales come from their lower-end cars, e.g. C and E Class, 3 and 5 Series, A4 and A6, and ES. Yet a few posts ago you tried to exclude all of these cars from the discussion on market domination. :confuse:

    Actually, you made the initial claim re the German automakers ruling the world's luxury market, but I haven't seen any figures to back that up yet. I agree they dominate their home market, the EU. So let's see your figures proving that the German automakers rule the luxury market on a worldwide basis, e.g. some other major market besides the EU--how about the US, China, or Japan? And without any artificial price barriers, e.g. $70k.

    Hyundai isn't going to get 20000 lux sales in Europe...


    Never is a long time. Let's see what happens. Also, I think you might be confusing reports that Hyundai won't offer the Genesis sedan in Europe at this time, for the Equus. I can't find any official statement from Hyundai that they won't offer the Equus in Europe. Can you please post a link to that report for us? I did find this report from C/D in early 2009 that quotes a Hyundai spokesman as saying the Equus will come to Europe "early in the next decade":

    http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/09q1/2010_hyundai_equus-auto_shows

    Do you think it was a coincidence that the latest Equus was unveiled in Geneva? I don't.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    Dreams? No. But as someone who has been watching Hyundai closely for ten years, I get the impression they don't have the word "can't" in their vocabulary. So I think it will be fun to see how this all shakes out over the next few years.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,566
    Don't get me wrong...I applaud how Hyundai has improved so much in almost no time, and I absolutely love how they are accelerating the growth of engine technology. I just can't say I think the sky is the limit. Sooner or later the know how is going to run out...and I think the highlines might be what do it. I have to repeat my babble about the 40000 Euro Grandeur...doesn't say much for an understanding of the market.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    The Grandeur is of course a five-year-old model. And the price is closer to 32k Euros, not 40k.

    http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/hyundai-grandeur-1005925.ht- ml

    Still, for a 5-year-old car that was designed primarily for the US market, it seems to acquit itself pretty well in the review, except for the depreciation bug-a-boo. And fuel economy of course. It's not a fuel-sipper.

    I don't think the Grandeur is a good example of the know-how running out for Hyundai's high-end models--it's an older design, and not even a luxury car, but a upscale FWD sedan ala Avalon and Maxima. The know-how is going into the new powertrains, the new car models--not the five-year-old Grandeur. With the Grandeur, Hyundai tried to grab a few sales in a low-cost manner by selling "what's on the truck." Since you have complained about Hyundai not attacking the European market immediately with the Genesis and Equus, I am a bit surprised you would chide them for trying to sell a few Grandeurs in Europe while they work on the next-gen car.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,566
    edited July 2010
    That's the UK...and I'm not a follower of Yahoo autos...get a Car or Top Gear opinion of that car...the former said "you'd have to be special to buy one" in the last issue I read, and in one of the two there was a note about sales volume in the UK being something like 10 units. When you say a few units, you must mean literally three. I saw zero of these things when I was last there (although I did see a Kia Opirus, being driven as a fleet car by a Kia dealer in Zurich). I also saw exactly one single new style LS in over 2000 miles of driving. Doesn't bode well.

    LPG model is 43000 Euro and you can load it up to 46000 Euro...of course, as I have never seen any evidence of one being bought and have never seen a pic of one in European traffic, maybe it's just an April Fool's joke that was never removed :shades:

    It's not really a lux car indeed...but H is pricing it in lowline E and 5er territory. Are they going to try to sell an 80000 Euro Equus there?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    Maybe they were responding to the criticism that their cars are priced too low to be considered luxury cars. :P

    Or maybe it's all a plot... price the Grandeur high, with no expectation of selling more of a handful. Then when the Equus comes at $50k+ USD, it won't seem very expensive. Yeah, that must be it! :)
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,566
    That could be it...offer the Genesis at the same price, and it's a screaming bargain in comparison. Might piss off the 3 people who bought a Grandeur. Although still at E/5er price level...it won't be an easy sell.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    edited July 2010
    But as someone who has been watching Hyundai closely for ten years, I get the impression they don't have the word "can't" in their vocabulary.

    I'm not a car fanatic, including Hyundai. I am a business fanatic, and I love Hyundai's bold strokes. They're already a worthy competitor, and worrying the J3. I want a front row seat to watch them go for the jugular, taking advantage of poor economy, and J3 mistakes and timidity.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Posts: 804
    For your reading pleasure...

    MT First Drive
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,566
    "With all the grace and evocative styling of a current Elantra, and ques aplenty from chinese cars. "

    Wow...it's almost like I made that comment :shades:

    Doesn't Samsung have some kind of tablet device that could have been used insted of the ipad? Keep it all Korean, etc.

    I am sure it will be nice for the Lexus enthusiast...but I can't see why I'd choose it over a 3 year old S-class + enough to buy a good 4 year warranty and enough for routine maintenance.
  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    Yes I agree with you on that point. When and if this happens then one might say that Hyundai had achieved its goal in becoming one of the best automobile companies in the world.

    Are they there yet? No of course not but they are on the right track...do I dare say more than any other car company.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    and for as wonderfully cheap that car may be, and for as comparable as it may be to the likes of those 7s/LSs/Ss/A8s/XJs or whatever, it will never ever be considered in the same league as those cars. Except possibly by those that dropped $60 large on one?
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Posts: 804
    One thing I learned a long time ago is "never say never"! It may not make it or it might make it but to say "never" paints you into a corner that you might have to try to escape from in the future. just my .02. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    It appears the editors of MT agree with you, i.e. the Equus will never be considered in the same league as the European and Japanese luxury cars:

    So for making owners of European and Japanese luxury sedans feel foolish, the 5.0-liter Equus is the ultimate embarrassment tool.


    In other words, the Equus is not in the same league as European and Japanese luxury cars. Instead, it is so good it will make owners of those other brands feel foolish. (At least, when the 5.0 V8 is available next year.)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    edited July 2010
    Wow...it's almost like I made that comment

    Yes, with the spelling and capitalization errors and all. :P

    Did you notice, on the photos of this US-spec Equus--no hood ornament. Satisfied that its gone now?

    Get a 3-year old S Class for the price of an Equus, including 4-year bumper-to-bumper warranty and all maintenance? Boy, those S Classes depreciate fast, don't they? ;)

    Re the iPad--you're just upset MB didn't think of it first. :)
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,566
    edited July 2010
    Spelling errors, from me? Surely you jest ;)

    Car tested wasn't even on US soil...who knows what version of that odd looking thing we will see. Hopefully not many either way...it's just not great design. Maybe from another unnamed "European design house"...right.

    And yes the S does depreciate harshly, as do all highline cars in raw dollar terms. This makes them a very appealing used buy, especially as the complex cars aren't as problematic as in the past. CR even lists the W221 as "recommended". I can get a nice 07 S550 for under 50K now. I'd buy it before the Equus based on looks alone, and that S is far from a supermodel.

    Ipad thing seems like a gimmick to distract the lame American consumer...we will see how many makers mimic it, or how many actually still work or are with the cars after 5 years.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    edited July 2010
    The article was clear the car was a US-spec car. But since you say we don't know what the final US version will look like, why the comments re what it looks like? :confuse:

    Used cars can be really good buys, but some people prefer new. Especially a new car that costs about the same as a 3-year-old used car and can smoke it besides. :)

    The iPad thing is obviously a gimmick to distract lame American consumers, since Hyundai came up with it. Had MB or BMW come up with the idea, it would have been the World's Greatest Idea. ;) How many owner's manuals are still with the car after 5 years? :sick:
  • peter_peter_ Posts: 2
    edited July 2010
    I think the Luxury Car market is dominated by European car makers. The brand such as Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW, Porsche etc. There will be excitement if the Hyundai is also eager to enter in this market. There will be space for Hyundai if they reduced the prices of the Luxury Cars and making some extraordinary super cars.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,145
    Comparing an '07 S-Class to an Equus is like comparing Heidi Klum to Susan Boyle. Really? Can I trust a newer S-Class not to doom me to financial purgatory? I'm doing extremely well with my '07 Cadillac DTS. I've experienced no problems whatsoever.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,566
    Articles can say what they want. I can comment about what it looks like because of the garishness of the KDM version and the inconsistent styling merits of the brand in general.

    People can prefer new all they want, its their money. In what ways does the Equus "smoke" the late model competition other than in length of warranty?

    The rented new style 7-series I had in Germany last year featured the owners manual built into the ICE - you could call it up on the nav screen. I bet the failure rate of that feature will be less than the failure and loss rates of those ipads. I've also never bought a car without the owners manual and other documents, highline cars generally keep at least a good part of their paperwork. A gadget prone to theft/kids/damage, however...maybe not.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,566
    edited July 2010
    I'd trust a W221 tenfold over a W220 (especially an early model) - the car has received very good ratings and does not seem to have the achilles heel areas of the old model. I've seen nice looking used ones for sale locally with asking prices well under 50K now...seems like a fair deal, although I'd rather the CL get to that price point. Similarly aged 7ers can be had for even less.

    I wouldn't expect problems from a DTS either, the technology is all proven and nothing is really new or revolutionary.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    edited July 2010
    In what ways does the Equus "smoke" the late model competition other than in length of warranty?

    Nice try to shift away from the situation we were discussing. You posted about buying a 3-year-old S Class instead of an Equus. I said one advantage to the Equus is it would smoke that 3-year-old car. You're right, the Equus' warranty certainly smokes that of the S Class, especially a used one. The horsepower of the Equus with the DI V8 also smokes the S550 (the model that would be in the same price range as the Equus) by 47 horses. That plus the 8AT (only 7AT on the S550, btw) should allow the Equus to smoke the S Class in other ways.

    It would be hard to bring that 7 Series owner's manual (in the nav system) into your home for browsing in the comfort of your easy chair, wouldn't it? Also, say you want to have the manual handy while you do something outside the car--again, pretty hard to bring that nav screen with you. What is the relative failure rate of the 7 Series system and the iPad, do you have any stats on that?

    Do you suppose the Equus owner will tend to keep his/her car locked, and the iPad tucked away in the glove box? If not, they deserve to have it stolen or messed with!
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,566
    edited July 2010
    No trying at all. You stated the Equus would "smoke" the competion, now the onus is on you and only you to detail this claim. In which specific ways will the Equus "smoke" this competition? To "smoke" implies something pretty exciting.

    2007 S550 has power numbers of 382/391. Equus is 385/333 per the latest Automobile test I read, and earlier numbers are lower. I can't find any data showing the Equus having greater performance, everything I find shows the old S having markedly faster acceleration. Don't give me stories of future powertrains of which concrete offering details don't even exist yet. I can also get that 3 year old S in AWD for a relatively small premium.

    I can get BMW owners manuals directly from the BMW USA website. So I can sit back in a chair and browse on my more practical and logical netbook or laptop that I own anyway and read away. The cars also come with a hardcopy book along with the i-drive and online versions. Logic has it that a portable device (which seems to have a few issues of its own no matter where it is stored) prone to theft and meddling will be a greater risk than a built in computer used for just a few tasks. I doubt any Equus owner who doesn't already own an ipad will always let it sit collecting dust in the car. Again, logic.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    edited July 2010
    You stated the Equus would "smoke" the competion, ...

    That is not what I said. I was more specific, as was our thread of discussion. What I said was:

    Used cars can be really good buys, but some people prefer new. Especially a new car that costs about the same as a 3-year-old used car and can smoke it besides.

    And it was clear from our thread of discussion I was talking of the Equus 5.0 DI V8 that was discussed in the MT article--that's the one with 429 hp. Coming next year. So you can get a 2008 S550 instead, vs. a 2007. ;) InsideLine says that car does 0-60 in 6.1 seconds. MT's estimate for the Equus 5.0 DI is 5.5 seconds--definitely in the "smoking allowed" section.

    Do you know for a fact you cannot get or will not be able to get an Equus owners manual from the Hyundai web site? Has Hyundai said the only way the Equus' manual will be available is via iPad? I must have missed that.

    Yes, I think you are upset because Hyundai thought of using the iPad for this purpose first. Plus that iPad can be used for other things. If you were offered a free iPad, would you turn it down?
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