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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    Ah, but this isn't just a mention on BMW's web site... this is a mention in several recent BMW press releases on its new models. If people don't read BMW's press releases, that is an issue BMW will have to contend with.

    You can ignore the facts, but it doesn't make them go away.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,704
    Who other than fanboys reads press releases about cars, online or via any other means? Seriously? Really? Consumers don't look at that propaganda, they read the watered down junk seen on general sites.

    I'm not the one ignoring the facts about the Genesis design and who it wants to be.
  • LASHAWNLASHAWN Posts: 303
    Who really cares what who is trying to look like who anyway? I don't really care, if the car looks good, drives and handles good, has everything in it that I like in a luxury car than amen, sign me up.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    Where do you think the "general sites" get their "junk" to publish? A lot of it comes from press releases, which the general sites repeat and sometimes add their own 2 cents to.

    Seriously, BMW has a major problem if their marketing efforts are being ignored by all but the BMW fanboys.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,704
    Non-enthusiasts don't care about the names of styling details. General junk sites know this.

    BMW has no marketing issues at all, judging by their sales on a national and global level.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    Great. By that measure, Hyundai's marketing is issue-free also. :)
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,704
    At least in TV ad form, Hyundai is doing a good job of touting their rise to competence, yes.

    Although the dopes in the parking lot test drive spots seem a little misleading sometimes. You aint gonna get what they are driving for $199/month.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    Sonata is $199 a month now--just saw one of those TV ads you love so much. Others driven in the ads e.g. Elantra can be had for less. Some are more. All of which is irrelevant to Hyundai's chances in the luxury market.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,704
    A leather lined SuperSonata isn't $199 a month unless you put like $8K down...nor is a spot that touts the lower cars but shows people obviously driving a Genesis (that copied C-pillar can be handy).
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    Maybe you can call your attorney in the morning re filing a lawsuit against Hyundai for deceptive advertising (or sue the poor [non-permissible content removed] who drove a Sonta Limited but is thinking a GLS for $199 a month will do for them), and we can move on.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,704
    Yes, because H can do no wrong and no actions should be questioned or mocked. The best cars in looks, performance, quality, resale, heritage, competition, marketing, you name it.
  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    Took my Genesis over to the dealer the other day and had it car washed. The service manager came over and asked if I was happy with my Genesis and I said that I was very very pleased with the automobile after a 1 1/2 years of ownership. He said that the Genesis has been an overwhelming success with sales out pacing even their most positive forecast. He went on to say that most customers buying are trading in their late model MB, BMW, Lexus etc. They don't keep the trade-ins on the lot as they wholesale out to auction companies. My guess they don't want to promote other luxury brands just Hyundais.

    Equus is coming in late September and they are only allotted 2-3 for the year. According to the guy they already have a waiting list.
  • I've had my Hyundai 3.8 V6 Genesis for 11,500 miles, now. Had it for only 7 months, but I like driving vacations. Here's the shocker, though I have mentioned it on this forum before, I replaced a 2004 VW Phaeton with the Genesis. The Phaeton was an unbelievable car. Great interior. Great aura. But the Hyundai has almost as big an interior (which I needed) and is much more fun to drive. Of course fun to drive is a purely subjective opinion, but even with NEW suspension on the Phaeton the car was too heavy to drive aggressively without feeling the wallow due it's great weight.

    I still think the Hyundai (a 2010, by the way) has a bit of a nervous ride, but I am used to it, now, and really appreciate the fun that ride translates into. Acceleration of my V6 matches that of the Phaeton, even surpasses it in town.

    Listen, if the Phaeton didn't break every 15 minutes (usually nuisance stuff....never left me stranded) I would have kept it. But I had to drive 70 miles for service, and the car was there every two weeks, and there was no end in site for the repairs.

    Yeah, the Hyundai is as quiet, more fun to drive. I call it a luxury car, and it were badged German it would be selling twice as much.

    Right now I have NO BUYER'S REMORSE. Always felt the backseat in the 5 series BMW was so tight that there was no reason not to buy a 3 series, or move to the 7. My Genesis is JUST RIGHT, and I have fun driving it, every day. I can't imagine how much more fun I would have driving the BMW, but I suppose I would, but I could not buy the 5.35 because I don't trust the turbo engine yet. I don't want a high maintenance car. I think low maintenance is part of my definition of luxury.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I still think the Hyundai (a 2010, by the way) has a bit of a nervous ride, but I am used to it, now

    I don't know how anyone gets used to the way it rides. Granted, mine is an early build 09, (probably one of the first off the boats) and there was a suspension change mid year 09, but mine is to the point that I hate to drive it. You have no idea what the car is going to do next. Mine is stiff in the front, oversprung and bouncy in the rear, the steering requires constant adjustment to stay straight ahead and transmits every bump in the road through the steering wheel.

    IMO none of these behaviors are constant with "luxury" I do tend to like a floaty ride, but I have driven other stiffly suspended cars that just act differently than the Genesis.

    What I can't understand is how everything else about the car is superb. The interior is beautiful, comfortable, and holding up nicely. The car is tight and rattle free and aside from the power steering wheel limit switch it has been reliable. ">

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,162
    Yeah, $199 a month provided you have a substantial down payment or you intend to finance it until the next ice age.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    All of which is irrelevant to Hyundai's chances in the luxury market.
    wrong like usual -l the fact that Hyundai also sells perfectly fine and relatively cheap mass market vehicles likie the Sonata/Elantra etc has much to do with the fact that Hyundai will NEVER find room in the luxury market
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    Big difference between doing no wrong and picking the nits with the world's biggest nit picker. But between the nit picks, it's clear you give Hyundai a lot of credit. Why else would you question why they aren't yet the equal to automakers like MB, which has been entrenched in the luxury market for decades, just a few years after Hyundai's first foray into the luxury market? That's putting a lot of store in Hyundai's capabilities. More store than I have, anyway. I'm not at all surprised Hyundai still has catching up to do to the established luxury automakers. Genesis was a good first step, and the Equus a daring next step, but it's only been two years since the Genesis hit the USA. What will Hyundai offer in five more years? Or ten? If I were MB, Lexus, BMW et. al., I would be a little worried.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    OK then. Based on that logic, we must eliminate BMW, Infiniti, Acura, and Lexus from consideration as a luxury automakers, since they sell (or in the case of Lexus will soon sell) mass market cars from the same dealerships that sell the luxury vehicles. And in most countries besides the US, we must eliminate MB also. That leaves a pretty small luxury marketplace.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,704
    I'd have no problem recommending a Sonata to a new appliance buyer. I don't denigrate the brand, only some of the rhetoric and what I see as subpar design. No real offense meant...only a little unreal offense ;)

    I am more interested in upcoming Hyundai engines more than anything else. They are forcing everyone else to finally get technology moving along after a slow several year period of advancement.

    H could potentially have some kind of impact on the big players here - if anything it could help to keep prices from escalating...but I just don't see it happening on a global basis.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    edited August 2010
    It's already happening on a "global" basis, with Hyundai a major player in nearly every market, save Japan and Europe. They are the world's 4th largest automaker by volume and the fastest-growing automaker. And they are making inroads in Europe. Based on what I've seen in the past 10 years from Hyundai, I wouldn't count them out of any market they choose to attack, given some time to refine and add to their offerings. I'm sure most people would have laughed had anyone suggested five years ago that Hyundai Group would sell close to 1 million vehicles in the US in 2010, and that they would offer not one but two luxury cars by then, ranging in price from the low $30s to over $60k.

    Next time you're at the library or neighborhood magazine rack, read the September Automobile Magazine article on Hyundai--it might give you more to think about.

    Rhetoric... that's funny, coming from you. :D
  • OK then. Based on that logic, we must eliminate BMW, Infiniti, Acura, and Lexus from consideration as a luxury automakers, since they sell (or in the case of Lexus will soon sell) mass market cars from the same dealerships that sell the luxury vehicles. And in most countries besides the US, we must eliminate MB also. That leaves a pretty small luxury marketplace.

    Took the words right out of my mouth.

    The most important components of success are talent and the inability to give up. Who wants to bet a Korean Co lacks either?

    I remember when Japanese cars were the disposable junk bought for the price value. No one's saying that now.

    I find the Hyundai bashing somewhat humorous. We're not dealing with Yugo's and Trabants built in a communist country, we're talking cars from a country that is hungry to be the best.

    They already dominate the LPGA, and it's no accident.

    I only wish the American Co's had the ability to move as fast. I would love to buy an American car I could love. Cadillac is about there, but I don't fit well in the cockpit's of the sportier versions, and I don't like the origami styling.

    Maybe a Buick? Oh wait, the newest are really German designs.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,704
    I was aiming at the lux category rather than the overall market. For general cars, H is gaining everywhere indeed - even the Euros have said nice things about the latest models - and they aren't tied to advertising demands as strongly as biased and bought-off American publications (which mean they will call something out as deficient if it is). But given the inability of Lexus to tear things up outside of this continent, I don't know if the higher line cars are going to go over as well.

    If I want rhetoric, I will look for Krafcik :shades:

    On a note somewhat related to the highline H cars, I see the Phaeton is coming back to the states. I wonder what brought that on.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    we must eliminate BMW, Infiniti, Acura, and Lexus from consideration as a luxury automakers, since they sell (or in the case of Lexus will soon sell) mass market cars from the same dealerships that sell the luxury vehicles.
    ahh but they aren't branded the same are they?.
    In the often obtuse and illogical world of brand perceptions, folks will buy a true lux car simply because of that badge. Hyundai's only mistake here is NOT the cars they are choosing to now produce, it is the fact they are not estabishing that separate luxury brand (and dealership) to sell it - something the brand and status conscious AMERICAN consumer has repeatedly demanded.
    You can crow all you want about how wonderful a Hyundai this or that may be - but it won't change the fact that a Hyundai branded anything will never be considered on the same level as those German brands, and even those J3 ones.
  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    For most people never say "never"

    In your case you will never accept that Hyundai could achieve it.

    You are still stuck in the dayswhen you lived in Korea in the late 80's when they were still making Excels.

    It will be the next generation that will determine Hyundai's future as they will have little or no knowledge of Hyundai's past just what they see now the future product.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    you're confusing Hyundai's ability to do something with the American consumer's ability to accept it. Hyundai has certainly demonstrated the ability to build some pretty damn fine automobiles, but getting the consumer to accept it is something entirely different. Yes, it's been done before but not without that brand differentiation that the autobuyer demands.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    You are still stuck in the dayswhen you lived in Korea in the late 80's when they were still making Excels.

    actually more like the mid 80s, and I actually worked in Ulsan, a very very large (and impressive) facilility that made cars as well as many other things. The Korean predecessor to the Excel was called the Pony over there BTW and were also almost all LPG fueled. Yes they were junky deathtraps, not far removed from those first 'disposable' cars sent over here. Not so much different than those first Toyotas sent over here in the mid 60s.
    My how times have changed! A Japanese brand that became a standard by which others were judged and now a Korean brand that someday would like to do the same?
  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    In many cases already there now!!

    Example: one article noted that Hyundai should be no longer considered an underdog but has demonstated thru its products that it is now a leader.

    Also again its not you or me that will decide if Hyundai will become recognized as a maker of luxury automobiles but our next generation, assuming Hyundai continues to tranform itself. Will there be bumps on way ... of course.

    Who would have thought just 10 years ago the amount of progress that Hyundai has made especially in the last 5.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    On a note somewhat related to the highline H cars, I see the Phaeton is coming back to the states. I wonder what brought that on.

    Option 1: If at first you don't succeed...

    Option 2: "Ach, Franz! Hyundai is selling luxury cars under their own brand in the US; why don't we give it a try again?"

    Option 3: Hope springs eternal.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    ahh but they aren't branded the same are they?.

    Actually in all but one case, they are, and in EVERY case they are sold alongside the luxury models from these brands:

    * Infiniti G25, starting about $30k, overlaps the Sonata (one of the cars you mentioned re Hyundai selling mass market cars) in price.
    * The new Lexus CT 200h will start at $27k (source: C/D) and also overlaps the Sonata in price.
    * The Acura TSX starts at about $29k, and overlaps the Sonata in price.
    * BMW dealerships sell BMW's Mini Cooper cars alongside BMWs in the same dealerships; they start at under $19k and overlap both the Sonata and Elantra in price.

    And MB sells the A Class in many countries outside the US, and that is definitely a "mass market" car in the same general price range as the Sonata (and maybe the Elantra also).

    So if it is a mistake for Hyundai to sell their luxury cars alongside mass market cars with the same brand, in the same dealership, it must be a mistake for all those other automakers. Unless you are applying a double standard?
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