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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?



  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,914
    edited August 2010
    The high end - S/LS/A8/7er etc. and higher.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,914
    It's a conspiracy!
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    LOL@Lemko! Man, those old boats were made of STEEL! I would love to have one, with modern Japanese or Korean V8, plenty of sound deadening, and re-worked interior to make it Lexus-like. My friends would laugh at me until they took a ride. ;)
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,914
    About 105 years ago, there was also an "American Mercedes", using the exact same parts as a German car, just assembled in the US to avoid duties.


    I wonder if RR will ever do it again, as MB has done it again and will continue it to dodge inflating costs and potential other issues in Europe.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,914
    edited August 2010
    I just don't go for wikipedia, but other sources can be fine. I'd love to see some kind of road racer or even rally version of a Genesis sedan, now that actually would be cool. But as it is, the only Hyundai competition motoring I can find is the Millen Genesis, some old SCCA Tiburons, and a few rally cars almost a decade ago. No storied competition like some of the big worldwide players use to build a halo.

    My opinion of Equus styling isn't alone in its sentiments. The styling will be a hindrance, especially if H dares to use the defective market positioning it has employed elsewhere with the 40K Euro + Grandeur (to which the Equus bears a strong resemblance).

    I can admit to MB faults, there are many MB I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole, I believe it is a firm (like most other German firms) very able to make mistakes. Some here don't seem to believe the same about the swoopy H. A fanboy can be a realist too. Some are...some are not.

    Any dealer website links of sub-30K Genesis?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    Last time I checked, Nissan isn't an American car company, and it took the 2009 MT COTY. Hyundai not being an American car company had nothing to do with the Genesis taking 2nd, IMO. And I think there is an excellent chance MT will name the Sonata the 2011 COTY. Check back in January and we'll see.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    See if you can find a GLS stick Sonata, anywhere, without floor mats or any other options. If not, the lowest-priced Sonata available today is $20,015. Even if you can find a car w/o floor mats, it's $19,915. See how many of those sub-$20k Sonatas you can find. I have yet to see a stick Sonata of any kind. If you want to deduct a few Sonatas from the figures to allow for those rare base Sonata sticks w/o floor mats, go ahead. The numbers are still way under the "half or more" you asserted. I provided the numbers to prove it.

    As long as competitors sell cars like the A Class, GT 200h, and TSX which fall into the same price range as these "mass market" cars from Hyundai, I don't see how you can say the "true" luxury brands aren't in this same place as Hyundai.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    Halos... that is exactly Hyundai's strategy with the Genesis and now the Equus--use them as halos for the entire brand. Not many people seem to understand that, however.

    Mistakes... I've been pretty hard on Hyundai on some things over the past 10 years, and wasn't shy about ranting about those things in Town Hall. When you find a perfect car company, let us know so we can all go buy one of their products., new cars, Hyundai Genesis, max price $30,000, max search radius, sort by price ascending.
  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    16 out of last 20 years were american made autos however 4 of last 6 were imports I'd they were a bit bias towards american autos over the years even when the quality wasn't there
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,914
    I don't know if the revised E60 and a big odd luxobarge alone will build the halo. I can understand someone thinking so, but I don't believe it's enough.

    It seems implying that H might not be perfect in these conquer the world upmarket aspirations isn't a tolerated viewpoint. Perfect company...from a profit and image maintenance standpoint, probably Porsche.

    I took your search I clicked on from a local dealer (in the color combo I would choose, blue with a creme-beige interior) noted that price was after military, college grad, and lease return rebates. Does anyone on the planet actually qualify for those consecutively? Seeing as a banner ad on the side was claiming "starting at $33,000" as I was viewing cars scraping under 30K, seemed kind of funny.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    edited August 2010
    Do you really think Hyundai will call it a day with the Genesis and Equus? I don't. But they're a start. As for toleration, rational thought and logic are always tolerable.

    You are making the Genesis pricing thing WAY too difficult. Let me make it easier for you:

    Genesis 3.8: $33,000 before options - search on those.
    Current rebate (may vary by state/region): $1500 loyalty OR $1500 conquest
    That's $31,500 before any kind of discount by the dealer. It would take less than a 5% discount to get below $30,000 + T&L.

    I'll make it even easier for you, just so we can move past this: go to the web site for Fitzmall (url is obvious, against policy to post it here), and search for Genesis "4dr sedan V6". I count 13 as of right now listed for under $30k. And with Fitzmall, they don't play the military/student/total eclipse of the moon rebate game--their prices include destination and any generally available rebates. That's 13 from one dealer group (3 locations out East). Several of these cars are even your fav color: blue/beige. Does that do it for you? Can we move on now?
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,914
    edited August 2010
    What are they going to do to top those cars, other than redesigns and new generations? As IMO they will have to...

    Rational thought and logic can be subjective...some don't seem to think questioning design themes and brand strategy is rational or logical, some do.

    I actually saw one at Fitzmall for under 29K....what's up with that? How are these cars actually being sold at a profit, or is H doing what Lexus did 20 years ago? Excuse my ignorance, there's no group like Fitzmall in my neck of the woods.

    But really, lighten up on the rhetoric, you are here representing the beloved swoopy H and putting forth a sour tone would make a German exec green with envy :shades: doesn't look nice. If you want to move on, just don't reply to me. We'll never see eye to eye on everything.
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,968
    edited August 2010
    It's ok to link to Fitzmall (unless you are Fitz and are touting it, lol). They do have good prices it seems - I check their Subaru prices now and then and tried to get my sister in VA to go over, but she's too far away from one of their stores. Only thing I can figure is that they live off holdback.

    (Dave Smith up in Kellogg ID may be the nearest thing we have out West, if you want a GM or Chrysler. But it looks like they quit posting prices online).
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    How about ADDING MODELS? e.g. luxury coupe (or a convertible, if they want to go out of their way to win you as a customer), a small sporty sedan to slot under the Genesis, a couple of SUVs... there's a LOT of room for growth in the future. Then maybe Hyundai will meet your definition of a "full line" carmaker. Uhh... probably not.

    I think questioning exterior design is highly subjective. I think it's way too subjective to beat on constantly as a reason an automaker won't have room in the luxury market, especially since it's clear other people find the designs attractive.

    You didn't look very hard if you saw ONE Genesis for under $29k--there were several. But your comment about selling at a profit is really funny, IMO. First, you claim none will sell for a relatively modest discount. Then you worry about whether they are being sold at a profit. Don't you see the huge discounts and lease specials being offered by other automakers? There's room to discount with luxury cars, and still turn a profit.

    Where do you live? I thought you lived on the East coast. Very short flight or even a nice drive to Fitzmall. Drive a little, save a lot. And there's other dealers who offer discounts like that. Recall you asked me to provide ONE. Just one. I'm done. Please don't ask again for someone to provide you with info that you have no interest in seeing--it's really a big waste of time for everyone concerned.

    Lighten up the rhetoric... LOL. That's a good one, thanks for the day-brightener. :D
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,914
    Does H have any legit plans for a sporty coupe, an open car, or a sports sedan? Really?

    The fact that H has apparently toned down the tasteless KDM style bling on the Equus shows that many elements of the design were not attractive, and the rest is just beige. At least H actually made the E60 look better in its mimic design.

    I don't see anyone else selling cars of that size and feature content (although a base Genesis isn't as special) for that money. It makes one wonder what is subsidizing what. And even on the H website, the Genesis is a "premium" car.

    I live on the west coast. I've never seen a Fitzmall in person. Thanks for the links, that group should expand out here.

    I will ask for what I please, you can't prevent it, just as you don't have to answer. As I have told you many times in the past, if you do not like my posts, you can ignore them. No hard feelings, no harm done.

    Man, that 3 year old S550 and 10K in cash sure looks nicer than an Equus.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Even if you can find a car w/o floor mats, it's $19,915.

    oh so I guess there is such a thing as a sub $20k Hyundai after all :surprise: - amazing that a "Hyundai basher' like myself (?) would have to educate you - and even then we are not talking about actual drive out prices and those often legendary discounts that Hyundai has had to historically float to sell its cars at all. The fact is of those 74000 Sonatas (that you chose to ignore) sold in 2010 (yeah the ones with the $18k sticker and the rebate etc I mentioned, the drive out is more likely in the 15s not the 20s. Or let's add back your silly floor mats, AT, some power and a stereo upgrade and buy that 2010 for a whole $16-17k! Think we have put a BIG dent in that 74000 yet? All I said what that half of what's at a Hyundai dealer sells for sub $20k and your sales figures confirm that.
    I have no idea what the product mix looks like on a Sonata, google your butt off if you'd like, but this is also NOT THE POINT.
    The point is that Hyundai (just like many many other mass market mfgrs) sells many of its products at much lower price points than any mfgr even remotely considered 'luxury'. Which is one of the problems with somebody like Hyundai finding 'room'.
    If you can't understand or admit that - then I guess you really do have a bad case of fanboy-itis.
    Hyundai has become an able competitor to those other J3 mfgrs and has even left the D3 folks in the dust IMO, the Sonata has recently become a real alternative to the Camcordimas, and lastly the Genesis is seemingly a legit choice to those other upscale sedans it competes with. No more or less, also quite an accomplishment, but let's not pretend anybody or anything is something they plainly are not.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    Hard to fathom why you care how far the Fitzmall Hyundai dealerships are from you, when you've been clear you aren't in the market for a new car, and certainly not a Hyundai.

    Probably the closest thing to the Genesis 3.8 in price and feature content is the G37 (lease price $349/month vs. $399 for base Genesis), and in the FWD sedan space the Avalon and Maxima. G25 is cheaper still, but significantly less oomph than the Genesis. However, it's not the price I was referring to, but the discount. I thought that is what you were harping about with your comment on profits. You seem shocked that Fitzmall can offer about $4000 off a base Genesis, $1500 of which is a factory rebate. But what discounts are available on other luxury sedans? Hint: big ones. Why? Because there's big markups on them, and luxury vehicles in general aren't selling all that well right now.

    Hope you enjoy that used S550, when you buy it.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    edited August 2010
    oh so I guess there is such a thing as a sub $20k Hyundai after all :surprise:

    Why the surprise? That point was never in question. What I questioned was your assertion that half or more of Hyundais sitting on dealer lots are priced at under $20k. You didn't say "sells for"--until now.

    We are talking present tense here, i.e. CY 2010. The 2010 Sonatas were all but gone by January. Almost all Sonatas sold in CY 2010 were the 2011 models. If you have facts to the contrary, please share.

    The point is that Hyundai (just like many many other mass market mfgrs) sells many of its products at much lower price points than any mfgr even remotely considered 'luxury'.

    That is true in the US, if you don't consider manufacturers such as Toyota and Nissan who have a separate luxury brand. But not necessarily true in other parts of the world. For example, what is the mix in Europe for automakers such as BMW and MB for "mass market" cars vs. luxury cars? What is the mix in Japan, where Toyota sells both luxury cars and mass market cars under one brand? I don't have those figures at hand, but maybe you do since you have made the statement I quoted above, so I assume have some factual basis for it. As Mr. Fintail likes to remind us, the luxury market is not just the US.

    So, what if Hyundai sells, today, 1/3 of its vehicles below the $20k price point? How does that impact their ability to make room in the luxury market? Does it not provide Hyundai with the ability to: 1) grab buyers at almost any price point, and offer them alternatives as they age and their incomes increase; 2) use their higher-end offerings as a "halo" to uplift the entire brand, allowing the uplift in pricing that has occurred over the past few years; 3) maintain a strong financial position, by offering a variety of vehicles under a single dealer/distribution/marketing network (and Hyundai is today the most profitable car company)?

    I don't think making points like those is being a "fanboy." I think it's looking at what Hyundai is doing, and trying to do, and realizing that they are approaching the luxury market in some ways unlike what others have done before them. And they have had some early success. Are they the equal of the likes of MB, BMW, Lexus? Ha ha ha, certainly not! They have a long ways to go to get close to that point. But have they carved out some room in the luxury market, and will they continue to carve out more room in the coming years? I think the answer is "yes."
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,914
    Hard to fathom why someone cares what I think about a distant dealership group. I could easily ask why someone who owns an old Sonata and a few cheapo cars cares so much about the luxury market when they don't appear to have any interest in driving such a car either new or used. Unless of course the old Sonata is some kind of Audi knockoff...right.

    Lease price and MSRP aren't always parallel, lots of subsidization out there. And I am shocked the new and amazing Genesis is being discounted...has the hype calmed down? Luxury vehicles aren't selling? BMW and MB are having very good sales right now.

    I'd probably buy an E63 before an S, the latter is a little big for my tastes. And these days I can get a 3 year old E63 for about the price of a new loaded Genesis :shades:
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,023
    Lease price and MSRP aren't always parallel, lots of subsidization out there. And I am shocked the new and amazing Genesis is being discounted...has the hype calmed down?

    There was the case even over a year ago when I got mine! I was around 1300 or so under invoice (1000 lease cash) and the MF on the lease was .0006 (1.44%) that is pretty heavily subsidized if you ask me.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

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