Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

paradigmexp

divSlapping a "Genesis" badge on the trunk makes a Genesis (presto/change-o) a luxury car, right?
* BMWs are commonly sold alongside $16k econo-hatchbacks, thus BMWs are not luxury cars, right?
- no slapping a 'Genesis' badge on the car doesn't in itself change anything, but anything that would serve to distance the car from its more mundane heritage can't hurt - that's exactly what the J3 did, isn't it? And it worked.....
- what BMW dealer sells anything (even preowned) for $16k never mind anything new? A Cadillac for $10k? One of us is living on a different planet
- V8 Audis, MBs, Lexii, and even Cadillacs (barely a lux brand) don't sell for $40k or even $45k they sell for $60k and sometimes a whole lot more."

1. Yes, it might help brand conscious consumers to consider the Hyundai brand. All Hyundai has to do is to put a nice pretty badge on it and the car will sell.

2. Hyundai is not following the other luxury makers because creating dealership networks for the Genesis would have been too cost prohibitive in a recession. Obviously, you do not realise how prudent Hyundai was, by not building a dealership network in 2009.

3. What makes you think that the laws of the universe, dictate how automakers follow a specific formula to sell cars? The world is a great place to live in because of its creativity/diversity. If every car followed in the same footsteps as bland vanilla Lexus(Well engineered car, lots of praise), it would be quite boring.

Plus, Hyundai executives, like John Krafcik, are really regretting the fact they didn't listen to the brilliant captain2 from edmund's forums regarding implementing luxury dealer networks. The point is, is that whatever Hyundai is doing with the Genesis sedan, it is working. Sales figures continue to hover around 1500-2000 range. If every car became the same bland vanilla Lexus, it would be quite boring.

paradigmexp

"Don't you think years of improvement and commitment to quality are more substantial than a re-badge? I know how important perception is, but give people a little credit. You and me know the Genesis is far removed from 1987, so others know it too. This isn't 1990. People are becoming savvy to marketing tricks."

I'd like to hear captain2 respond to this question.

Here is how I take it. Increasingly, people are beginning to wake up to the marketing gimmicks of the auto industry. Players that provide value at a good price are winning the purse strings of the economy sensitive buyers. Brands that can not meet these new guidelines in the auto industry will fail to gain marketshare. It is not a coincidence that the only manufacturer that provides a 10 year warranty while lowballing the competition by 10-20% is winning marketshare.

bobad

It is not a coincidence that the only manufacturer that provides a 10 year warranty while lowballing the competition by 10-20% is winning marketshare.

Some would say that that Hyundai's long warranty and low price are just marketing strategies to sell more cars. However, so are great engineering, refined engines, sensual styling, luscious interiors, and state of the art safety features. Shame on Hyundai for using all those marketing gimmicks.

lemko

Kind of what happened to Packard when they introduced the 120 and the Packard Six. Now, just about any Joe Schmoe could own a Packard.

lokki

If you studied closer, the quality/value ratio of the Hyundai vehicle is main reason why Hyundai is, still, selling cars in the United States.

I think you underestimate the effectiveness of financing anyone who can breath twice in a row in this equation.

tenpin288

I think you underestimate the effectiveness of financing anyone who can breath twice in a row in this equation

May have been true years ago, but given the business climate and tight to almost [non-permissible content removed]-clenched credit markets today, not true anymore. My wife and I have excellent credit and it's not easy for us to get credit for some things now that only took a quick signature a few years ago! :P

backy

OK, I'll call you on that. Please provide factual evidence that Hyundai dealers "extend financing to anyone who can breathe", or more practically that they have credit practices that are significantly looser than its competitors. In particular, for cars like the Genesis, since that is the kind of vehicle we are talking about here.

backy

FWIW, the 10-year warranty started in late 1998, for the 1999 MY.

As for asking for people to use logic and fairness in their posts here.. I think you have seen that those are not requirements for participation in this forum.

captain2

Don't you think years of improvement and commitment to quality are more substantial than a re-badge?
of course, years of improvement is EXACTLY what must happen.And it also is, incidentally, what has shown to work historically when it comes to mass market mfgr. establishing a luxury brand. Lest you forget, Toyota /Honda made some genuinely crappy cheap cars primarily in the 60s and starting improving rapidly in the early 70s, and stuck with it despite that the '[non-permissible content removed] crap' rep that followed them at least into the mid 80s. By the end of the 80s, however, Toyota (and Honda) products were almost universally recognized and accepted as superior - and deservedly so. This is what 'greased the skids' for Lexus and Acura.
So how does all this relate to what Hyundai is trying to do now ? For one I don't think that Hyundai is in anywhere near the same positive position today that Toyota and/or Honda were in 20 years ago. True or not, I believe that most autobuyers still think of Korean cars indifferently at best and negatively at worst. negatively.
For Hyundai to succeed in the luxury market, Hyundai needs to have the same reputations of superiority that Toyota (and Honda) did and yes the Hyundai name should have to improve to that level before even a 'rebadge' would work. So if we are going to accept the oft stated 2006 transformation in Hyundai's products, now we are going to also assume that Hyundai is going to do in 5 years something that it took the Japanese 15 or 20 to do? OR more importantly are we also going to assume that the consumer can accept the change that quickly??? I plainly, think not.
Is it coming and is Hyundai making progress, sure looks like it. I'm not arguing that at all. But we are supposed to be talking about Hyundai's success in the so called 'luxury' market TODAY and not necessarily what they might be able to do 5 or 10 years (or whatever) from now. Your 'years of improvement' and even 'committment to quality' seem to me to be just beginning and it should take several more years of doing just that BEFORE Hyundai will be generally known first for quality and less so much for lower prices - a necessary component, IMO, if any manufacturers ability to succeed in the 'luxury' car business.

PS If anything, it occurs to me that people are LESS saavy to marketing 'tricks' otherwise things like overextended warranties and/or purchase guarantee programs wouldn't work as well as they do. :confuse:

bobad

PS If anything, it occurs to me that people are LESS saavy to marketing 'tricks' otherwise things like overextended warranties and/or purchase guarantee programs wouldn't work as well as they do.

Hey, some people do much worse by falling for old dated legends in the form of a badge.

On the 1 hand, you keep saying that Hyundai will take years to make a luxury car, and on the other hand you keep saying that perception lags reality by years. Wouldn't it be smart to jump the perception gap? I did that 40 months ago when I bought my 06 Sonata, and I feel smarter every trouble-free day that goes by.

backy

... and yes the Hyundai name should have to improve to that level before even a 'rebadge' would work.

So now you are saying Hyundai should NOT have started a separate brand before selling the Genesis in the USA, contrary to what you have been advocating here for many months???

Or are you saying Hyundai has already improved to Toyota/Honda level of superiority??

:confuse:

tenpin288

So now you are saying Hyundai should NOT have started a separate brand before selling the Genesis in the USA, contrary to what you have been advocating here for many months???

Or are you saying Hyundai has already improved to Toyota/Honda level of superiority??

I think captain must have been, or should have been, a politician in a previous life. He sure has mastered the art of making my head spin! :confuse:

captain2

On the 1 hand, you keep saying that Hyundai will take years to make a luxury car, and on the other hand you keep saying that perception lags reality by years
not sure that you are really understanding what I've been trying to say for all these months. The fact (IMO) that the Gen Sedan is NOT a 'luxury car' has nothing to do with the car itself nor does it have anything to do with Hyundai's ability to make it. Perception often lags reality as you say and if we can grant Hyundai the same quality perceptions that some of those J3 mfgrs had back in 1990, THEN I think we do have a perfectly legitimate candidate for entry into the legions of luxury car mfgrs. Just don't think that Hyundai is thought of in those knids of terms YET.

It's also probably not called a Hyundai specifically or FTM and not sold where Hyundais are sold - that oft demonstrated history of successes and failures when 'mainstream' mfgrs. attempt to do what Hyundai is attempting.

lokki

Please provide factual evidence that Hyundai dealers "extend financing to anyone who can breathe"

http://www.philpottmotors.net/financing/index.htm

http://www.carspace.com/videos/play?@@!id=.5c86246b#

http://www.worldhyundailoans.com/guaranteed-auto-approval.aspx

http://planethyundai.com/Department-Finance.aspx

http://www.hyundaioutletstore.com/Car_Loan_Hillsborough.html

ad nauseum ad infinitum

captain2

I, personally, think that the ten year warranty was pretty gutsy call by the CEO of Hyundai Chung moo koo,
Gutsy or something they were forced to do to get consumers to look seriously at their cars? Or both?

tenpin288

And here's a few more--note that there are a few other dealerships/manufacturers that offer "2nd chance credit".

http://www.laureltoyotapa.com/displayContent.asp?keywords=SecondChance

http://www.buythomas.com/Thomas_Credit_Solutions.cfm

So I guess Hyundai doesn't have a monopoly on the "fog a mirror and get a car" credit app. It's a very competitive environment out there right now and all dealers will do whatever they can to close a sale and deliver a vehicle, not just Hyundai.

backy

Sorry, does not pass the "so what?" test... for example:

http://www.dickbrookshonda.com/Car_Finance_Simpsonville_SC.html

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/dubrichardsontoyota/Financing.html

http://www.surfcitynissan.com/financing/index.htm#

http://www.bmwofcc.com/Car-Finance-Rock-Port-TX.html

http://www.mercedesofannapolis.com/auto-finance.aspx

http://www.renickcadillac.com/Car_Loan_Los_Angeles_CA.html

There's lots more where those came from.. ad nauseum, ad infinitum. So, how is Hyundai any different from its competitors?

stever

And if Renick in that last link can't fix you up with a car loan, http://www.redneckcadillac.com/ can at least fix you up with a ride.

Hey, that's what it looked like to me at first glance.

Hyundai Beats Expectations With Record Profit (NY Times)

"The Ulsan, South Korea-based maker of the Elantra and Sonata sedans and the luxury Genesis said sales during the quarter rose 33.8 percent to 8.1 trillion won from 6.1 trillion won a year earlier." (AP - note that they say "luxury")
.
And as an aside, the Assurance Program will likely be extended into next year. (AP)

tenpin288

I guess this answers captain's question then...

Less than 75 vehicles have been returned under the program

Somehow I doubt 75 returned Hyundais in one year will have any deleterious effect on resale values.

captain2

Less than 75 vehicles have been returned under the program
as I would have suspected, between whatever fine print is in the Assurance Program and whatever credit and job qualifications HFC has, Hyundai knew damn well that they would have negligible liabilities. But a whole lot of something to brag about for the marketing mavens.
You think, that given Hyundai's rather impressive sales record in these bad economic times, that maybe, just maybe they sold a whole lot more than a mere extra 75 cars because people bought into this whole "Assurance'" thing? No dummies, these Koreans, that's for sure.

lokki

Sorry, does not pass the "so what?" test... for example:
Backy - as usual, you've changed your criteria after the fact. At first you were insulted that I stated (correctly) that Hyundai historically built their sales by accepting customers with poor credit histoy.

You demanded proof of that. I provided it. Now, you're saying "So what, everyone does it."

Sigh.

So, how is Hyundai any different from its competitors?

In the percentage of its customers who have lower tier credit. Clear?

Now -

1. This has nothing to do with the Genesis...which is the purpose of this discussion (See Steve? I'm trying to get back on topic).

2. I think that this discussion has probably reached its end for me.

There is a dichotomy of opinion here that is unresolvable.

Position A. One very nice vehicle a luxury brand makes. Everything is tangible.
Luxury does not mean exclusivity. It only means quality of materials and construction.


Position B. One nice vehicle alone does not make a luxury brand. Intangibles matter. Exclusivity matters. Dealership matters. Status value matters.

I don't see that I have much to offer that will bridge this gap.

Adios.

bobad

not sure that you are really understanding what I've been trying to say for all these months... Just don't think that Hyundai is thought of in those kinds of terms YET.

I understand perfectly. I just don't accept your entire premise. I believe that today's car buyer is not as you perceive them. Sure, there are still some traditonal brand-conscious buyers out there, but these days, people take advantage of all the information we couldn't get 20 years ago. They know their "RCA" television is made in Taiwan or Seoul.

If people hear a certain car, TV, or toaster is good quality at a good price, and they like it, they they flock to it. They don't give as much weight to the brand as they once did. Information really is changing society, and the effects are here now, not in the far-flung future.

This is not just my opinion, but that of others in the industry.

Hey, whatever happened to Joe97? I really miss him in these debates.

captain2

At first you were insulted that I stated (correctly) that Hyundai historically built their sales by accepting customers with poor credit histoy.
to be fair - ALL mfgrs. that sell in the lower extremes of the auto business must by definition also deal with those folks with lower incomes and more marginal credit.

backy

How do you know I was "insulted"? Are you a mind reader?

What I asked you to verify with factual evidence was this:

Please provide factual evidence that Hyundai dealers "extend financing to anyone who can breathe", or more practically that they have credit practices that are significantly looser than its competitors. In particular, for cars like the Genesis, since that is the kind of vehicle we are talking about here.

You did provide a few examples of Hyundai dealers who help people with "bad credit" buy cars. But you didn't demonstrate that the credit practices of Hyundai dealers are any looser than those of competitors. Also you didn't show any correlation to the luxury market, per our topic here. And you did not provide any facts regarding the percentage of its customers who have a lower credit tier (whatever that means), compared to percentages for customers of other brands.

It's one thing to offer up a blanket statement; it's another thing to back it up.

jerseyboy5

Yo people, can we all just get along.

Who gives a damn whether Hyundai makes a $5K car or a $500K car.
If there is demand, there will be supply.

As a fellow American of Korean descent, Korean cars do need to have track record of 10-15 years, however, if you ask the Japanese automakers. It's not the Germans or the Italians, it;s the Koreans that they are terrified of.

Ask Sony, Samsung and LG kicked there butts in the Large LCD, plasma TV sectors.

Take care my brothers from another mothers.
My sistas from another mistas.

Peace <><

captain2

I believe that today's car buyer is not as you perceive them. Sure, there are still some traditonal brand-conscious buyers out there, but these days, people take advantage of all the information we couldn't get 20 years ago.
other than giving the car buyers a bit too much credit -As soon as you can convince me that you could go out and offer, for example, the car buyer their choice of let's say an Accord, a Camry, an Altima, and a Sonata all for the same price AND get pretty much an even distribution on the choices - that's when you'll convince me the car buyer is as brand indifferent as you apparently think they are. There is a reason why the Camcordimas sell a million copies a year, and the Sonata is a distant 4th - and it is not because those J3 models are cheaper. .

bobad

What did I just say? What did I just say?

Here's what I said:

If people hear a certain car, TV, or toaster is good quality at a good price, and they like it, they they flock to it.

People have certainly been flocking to Toyota and Honda, and now have begun flocking to Hyundai's in significant numbers. They're number 5 in the world just now, but you must be aware that will improve at a rapid rate.

backy

Your premise assumes that brand differentiation is the ONLY factor in making a choice between a Camry, Accord, Altima, and Sonata. It's not. Also, there are differences in other factors, not car-related, such as number and distribution of dealerships (i.e. availability), and even supply (i.e. max output for the Alabama plant is 300k units/year, and that includes the Santa Fe).

It's simply not that simple.

colloquor

FWIW... I bought a new Hyundai, and my FICO score is 842. You can't make an extended argument that only the lower socioeconomic classes buy Hyundai vehicles. And, I never finance a car - always pay cash, as we did with the Hyundai and more recently, the Audi A6.

paradigmexp

Your premise assumes that brand differentiation is the ONLY factor in making a choice between a Camry, Accord, Altima, and Sonata. It's not. Also, there are differences in other factors, not car-related, such as number and distribution of dealerships (i.e. availability), and even supply (i.e. max output for the Alabama plant is 300k units/year, and that includes the Santa Fe).

Agreed, selling cars is not as simple as what brand name best suits to a consumers needs. Some people need big trucks, small cars, AWD, minivans. Let alone the biggest factor for the average consumer will always will be price and value. If I can get same car or better than another brand at a lower price, the choice to buy the more expensive brand will be harder to justify seeing to it that the economy is making people spend more carefully.

Whether Hyundai is intentionally undercutting competiton, because they do not have the brand prestige is not really relevant to a consumer's need. What matters for regular folk is that Hyundai is providing a good car at a good price. If you want to debate about Hyundai's managerial practice as somehow underhanding the competition, let's debate that in another thread.

captain2

You can't make an extended argument that only the lower socioeconomic classes buy Hyundai vehicles
there sure are too many assumptions made - I didn't say this at all - what I did say that ANY mfgr. that sells relatively inexpensive cars is going to have to deal with MORE folks that can only afford cars in those price categories. For the sake of argument - wouldn't you agree that the average credit store for somebody that buys a Lexus, for example, is going to higher than those buying Hyundai, Fords, Toyotas, Chevys etc etc.
Congrats on your excellent credit, BTW but NOT anything to do the point I was trying to make,.

espo35

Looks like none of you guys are in auto sales, eh?

Hyundai Motor America has VERY tough loan standards. The toughest I've ever seen in 30+ years in the business.

"Credit Criminal-Types" usually go for flashier cars- Land Rover, BMW, Mercedes, etc.

Hyundai customers tend to be well-educated and smart with their money (value-concious). This tends to put them in above-average FICA land.

stever

"Your friends may not be impressed with the brand name, but give them a ride and they'll be impressed with your financial savvy."

6 cars with luxury feel and mass appeal (CNN)

backy

They have got to be kidding. They also included the Malibu in this group of reviews. Maybe CNN Money should stick to talking about the stock market etc.

Here is what they said within the article, however:

So the Genesis is aimed straight at cars like the Mercedes Benz E-class and Lexus LS but at a much lower price. The Genesis is roomy car with a nicely designed interior lined with plenty of leather and wood grain. It's even available with a powerful V8 engine. The Genesis lacks only a little around the edges compared to its genuine luxury brand competitors.

stever

Now that you've had the sandwich, can I offer you a mint? It's certain to please

The Genesis - it's two, two, two cars in one!

A luxury car and an economy ride. What's not to like?

backy

If the suspension is tuned for 2010 to satisfy 99% of buyers instead of just 95%, then I guess the complaints will focus on lack of a cooled passenger seat. :shades:

stever

I'm afraid to try a cooled passenger seat. Out here in August, it could fast go beyond a luxury item to a necessity. I already feel that way about my heated seats.

backy

I've only been in one car, a Lexus, that had cooled seats. It was OK but I could do without it. In MN, heated seats (with leather) are much more useful.

I am a bit surprised Hyundai didn't add the cooled passenger seat for 2010. Lack of that feature was noted by quite a few owners in their reviews--many more than noted a problem with the suspension. Yet they tweaked the suspension. I noticed though, apparently a telescopic steering column is now standard on the base Genesis 3.8 (if Edmunds.com can be believed--and it can, right, Steve? ) That was a strange omission in the 2009 Genesis given that many econoboxes have telescopic steering columns.

british_rover

I have been in many, many cars with cooled seats and generally they give me a kind of weird, "someone is walking across your grave feeling." They just feel strange give me the creepy crawlies and I don't particularly care for them. I will say that the set up on cooled seats has been getting better. I don't feel as weird using them in a new Rover or Volvo then I did in a Lexus, Merc or Lincoln back a few years ago.

stever

It usually hits 105 here every summer (but it's a dry heat - like a pizza oven :shades: ) so some extra cooling could be nice.

I sure don't want any more leather seats. Heated cloth please for my next (first?) luxury ride.

Automobile magazine is testing a Genesis - an update came out today on the web with this tidbit:

"During one particularly sweltering drive, bassist Sedghi Zubin praised the air-cooled front seats. "Few things can ease the pain of sitting in Manhattan gridlock; one of them, I've now realized, is not having a sweaty backside."

carolinabob

BS! Hyundai customers are those that can't get financing anywhere else. Look at the ads on TV, in magazines and in newspapers-that is who they are targeting.
Hyundai is not now and probably never will be a true luxury make, no matter how many Genesis, Equus, etc. they put out there. True, they do exceptionally well at loading their cars up with very nice features, but look closely at BMW, Infiniti, Acura, M-B, etc and you will see a vast difference. I did and that is why I am not buying a Genesis even with the Hyundai Associates Purchase Program discount. And I really, really tried to convince myself to get a Genesis. Couldn't do it.
In three and five years, look at the resale value of Genesis, Equus, etc. compared to the others - that will tell the story. Hyundai in general has one of lowest resale values of any car on the market. They make cheap cars and how do they make them cheaper? That is the real question.
A TRUE luxury car is one you are proud to drive and happy with, not one you you saved some money on - and that is Hyundai's chief attribute. :P

backy

I assume it's OK to be proud to drive and be happy with a Hyundai, AND have saved money on it--both on initial purchase and on depreciation. That is the case with the Hyundai I currently own, and with the one I owned for 5-1/2 years but sold a couple of years ago.



P.S. My FICO is in the 820s range last time I checked.

houdini1

And I really, really tried to convince myself to get a Genesis. Couldn't do it.

Are you saying that they would not finance you ?

british_rover

Actually he is right. The old Ford Motor Credit captive finance arm, who I have the most experience with selling Land Rovers and Volvos, would buy basically anyone as long as their was a decent down payment. The rate would be in the high teens but you could get a loan. Even now with lending requirements very tight so that say Chase or US bank won't buy someone Volvo Credit probably will if there is a large enough down payment.

You could be in the low 500 range but if you had over 30% down Ford would buy that loan. The rate would just be 18.9 ++++ percent.

carolinabob

In 2006 and 2007 all the same sources, TV, financial, automotive, etc. referred to here were saying the same wonderful things about the Azera.
Now the only good thing you hear is that you can pick one up for a song as a used car or as a new one because they are not selling and/or low resale values.

carolinabob

NO, I could have paid cash for it, but there are too many complaints and too many negative comments about the car already. Wait till people start getting 20, 30, 50,000 miles on them. I test drove three different ones trying to find one that rode well - couldn't do it. There are even complaints on the official Hyundai Think Tank site-and it has a membership test to join.
Almost every review I read had negative comments re: the suspension/ride. Even 54% of the subscribers to Consumer Reports forum were dissatisfied with the ride. Also, when you look close at the interior and the other features and then compare to the true luxury makes, you can spot the differences.
Also, Hyundai Motors America, in my dealings with them, has been very poor compared to the luxury makes. Ironically, I have received better customer service from Lexus, M-B, Infiniti and Acura at the national level even though I do not own one of them than I have received from HMA even though I own an Azera.

backy

So you don't like the way the 2009 Genesis (I assume you haven't driven the 2010 model yet) rides. Fine. You don't like the interior. Fine. You don't like HMA's customer service. Fine. You should buy a car you like, from a company that gives you an acceptable level of service.

Why add the sweeping (and inaccurate) generalizations about the credit of Hyundai buyers?

audiobuff

After having a M-B (E Class), Infiniti(M35) and an Acura (RL) we leased a 2009 Genesis v8 last year. Now with over 23K miles on it, and not a problem , we have a second one (a 2010 v8) and never looked back!!!

toye

There are alot of former MB, BMW, LEXUS and INFINITITY that have bought the Genesis and have no regret on their purchase. It's so sad that when a couple of bloggers get on this forum they trash Hyundai every chance they get. Grant you no car company is perfect..but Hyundai has done an excellent job in the last decade to improve their product, image and service.

deltheking

All Hyundai critics must go and buy a GM or Chrysler/Dodge. C'mon guys-Give credit where it is due. Hyundai have done a remarkable turnaround from the tinboxes of the 90`s. GM and chrysler have been around for decades and their quality is pathetic. Infact Toyota/Honda fear Hyundai/Kia more than anyone else.

I like Lexus/Toyota and have both of them but I must say the new Hyundai products are of very good quality. I feel they are giving Toyonda a run for their money. And I always favor competition. Helps Toyota keep making better comfy,plushy quiet cars that I like. But unfortunately and this is real sad--Hyundai still has a stigma attached to it . Unfortunately that`s the real world scenario. Car folks though know that a Hyundai is a great bargain especially a used one. But for the general folks out there- It takes time for perceptions to change . :surprise:

But it wont take a long time like Toyonda b`cos this is the age of the internet and news,reviews,reliability data travel real fast. Still, a luxury car needs a separate image and branding . That`s how luxury buyers perceive it. Sad but true.Hyundai in the near future will definitely set up a totally new luxury brand. Absolutely no doubt. The timing now is just not right,so they are just waiting and playing it it safe and calculated. They have a simple strategy- Make really good reliable cars , have a couple of luxury optioned cars- Get the brand image up,the ratings and reviews up,reliability stats up and then set up a luxury brand. :shades:

A luxury car is almost always about branding . Why? It`s just the way it is. Sad,it just can`t be helped. For example- A loaded Toyota Avalon I feel is much much better than the entry Lexus ES. Still the ES is a Lexus and the Avalon a Toyota. I know , I know - that`s not the truth . But that`s the way it goes. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder !! :shades: