Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

captain2

A Hyundai customer is never going to understand the value of driving a 'luxury' car and further will justify the differences that do exist by dollar savings. To the H fanboy everything ends up being spec sheet and pricetag comparisons.
A luxury car and a luxury brand both have really little to do with how many gizmos or FTM how much bling a given manufacturer can load a particular car up with, something else that a Hyundai fan would also have difficulty with.

m4d_cow

My point was that if the Genesis was priced more like a luxury car then it wouldn't be winning the awards that it has won, because its competition wouldn't be the $40k Avs/Maxs/Lucernes of the world.

I agree. This is what I've been trying to point out but nobody seems to bother to listen, oh well....

I stick with my side, 2 generations from now at this rate it will be totally ready for luxo class, complete with all the necessary aspects of the class. It may take 10 years, but that's probably the earliest I'd ever truly consider a Hyundai luxury car.

A car has to really stand out to win my attention. Hyundai does it with Genesis Coupe. For $25k (2.0T) nothing comes close, for $30k (3.8) only Mustang GT competes (I skip Z for the lack of rear seat). Alas GT wins only in drag racing, other than that I see zero advantage over Gen Coupe.
OTOH, if you push it and jump up one class, and it'll have to face BMW and Infiniti coupes, not a good prospect.

stever

Does Genesis winning so many awards give me any advantage? Nope. Those awards are worthless to me.

A bunch of awards might contribute to a better resale value, or at least help it sell faster.

Of course, if I see a "MT Car of the Year" blurb in an ad, I'm liable to skip to the next one. :P

ergsum

This forum is the prefect example of the classic paradox of "What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?" Always an interesting read.

espo35

"A Hyundai customer is never going to understand the value of driving a 'luxury' car."

Good grief. So, you know ALL Hyundai owners and what makes them tick, eh?

I'm black, so therefore I must know how to tap-dance, too.

" A luxury car and a luxury brand both have really little to do with how many gizmos or FTM how much bling a given manufacturer can load a particular car up with, something else that a Hyundai fan would also have difficulty with."

So tell us, what DOES constitute a luxury car?

captain2

that's probably the earliest I'd ever truly consider a Hyundai luxury car.
well, they could accelerate things with dedicated Genesis dealers could'nt they?? A bridge I suggest they will have to cross if they really intend on selling the Equus over here.
The Gen coupe may be a perfectly good little rice rocket, but also not a direction that Hyundai needs to be heading if it ever expects any kind of admission into 'lux land'. Acura has tried this, much to the detriment of the brandname over the years - even Infiniti, if you think about it, had a much tougher ticket into lux land because of their initial flirtations with things like G20s. The Coupe would seem to be heading in the wrong direction, the Equus obviously in the right direction even if it shouldn't carry the Hyundai brandname or the Hyundai dealer.

captain2

what is a luxury car has little to do with the car itself, it does have more to do with things not on a specsheet - like what others perceive it to be, and yes even badge prestige. Overstating just a bit, there are a number of mass market manufacturers that could produce a Rolls freaking Royce and still not make a luxury car. Hyundai is in that category. Even the Equus as high end and luxurious as it might end up being, will never be a luxury car as a Hyundai or sold at a Hyundai dealership.
This says nothing negative about the company or its products, simply the perception that the company shares with many others, IMO. If you think Ford, for example, could make a perfectly decent copy of a LS (which they certainly could) and then be selling a 'luxury' car, then I guess one of the two of us doesn't understand what a luxury car is. :confuse:

espo35

"Acura has tried this, much to the detriment of the brandname over the years".

The NSX was a detriment?

Is the Continental a detriment to Bentley?

backy

H fanboy

Yep, as soon as someone makes an argument you can't deal with using logic or persuasive discourse, the name-calling comes out. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is an "H fanboy." Maybe I should start calling those who think what a luxury car is has little to do with the car itself "Elitist Snobs". But that wouldn't be very polite, would it, nor would it contribute at all to the discussion.

As soon as I can drive a badge or the things about a car that have little to do with the car itself, and as soon as someone else starts buying my cars for me, I'll pay attention to what category a car falls into. Until then, a Genesis by any other label would drive as sweet (sorry, Bard).

captain2

The NSX was a detriment?
of course not, but the Vigors, Integras, RS/ TSXs, and even (to a lesser degree) the TL all were and are. The Acura brand to me is an entry level lux , at best despite the fact that they handled the brand differentiation part of the equation relatively well (back in the late 80s).
Any effort by any manufacturer that lessens product cost, increases commonality, and lessens the exclusiveness that comes with both - all serve to be a determinant to a 'luxury' brand. The ES hurts Lexus, The 1 (and even 3 series) hurts BMW, the Cs MB etc etc. on the same basis.

captain2

you are welcome to call me a 'Toy fanboy' if it makes you feel better, I do happen to drive an Avalon.
I have never ever said anything bad about Hyundai's current crop of products, quite the opposite actually, but it is folks like you that can somehow construe any critical comments made about how Hyundai is attempting to sell 'luxury' cars as 'bashing'. The inability to make that distinction is what would qualify you as a 'fanboy'.

british_rover

I don't often reply to you because you are impossible to argue with but I can't just let what you wrote there stand.

You have no clue how a model hierarchy works. I don't think you have any idea how the car business works. It almost sounds like you want ideological purity in your car brands and guess what that doesn't work.

There needs to be some entry level vehicles for every brand to keep customers introduced to the brand. That is what the 3 series and 1 series are for and that is what the C-Class is for. The customer gets the badge at a more attainable price at a younger age then they would be able to afford a real BMW or Merc or Audi or whatever.

You catch the customer young when he is just starting out professionally with the entry level car whatever that is and they get attached to the brand not the model. Why do you think actual model names have gone away from most car brands? The marketing guys have figured out that a model name associates people with that particular model not the brand. By using alpha-numerics to name models people identify and associate with the brand and when they want to trade up they will pick another model in that brand. Hopefully they will pick a larger more profitable one to boot.

I have been in the car business a long time and I see it every day.

Obviously not every customer works this way but the majority of them do and that is why auto brands do this.

Every model needs a model below it to support its sales. The guy buying the 3 series or the guy buying the corolla is supporting the 5 series and Camry sales above him. That model hierarchy works for lux brands, non-lux brands and premium brands. BMW would sell many, many fewer 5 series and 7 series models if they didn't have the 3 series below to introduce people to the brand at a lower price point.

This model hierarchy works in reverse too. A guy I know bought his first 7 series in 88 or so when he was fairly young. He was a successful business guy and had deep family money so it wasn't a stretch for him. He liked how the car drove and that it was sporty without being ostentatious. As the years went on though and BMW kept bumping up all their cars in size he liked to stay in that same size range. He replaced his second 7 series with a five series in the late 90s and replaced his second 5 series with a 3 series just two years ago.

He wanted to stay in that same size range but still get a BMW that drove the way he liked and get the same quality service he expected.

Ideological purity in a car brand gets you Range Rover in the late 80s to mid 90s. Back then Range Rover was a one model brand in the US. there was the Range Rover model only in a couple of different trim levels with two wheelbase options for some years.

They never made any money and eventually got scooped up by BMW for a song. BMW didn't do much for Range Rover, they really only bought the company because it was the quickest way to develop their own SUV something BMW had never done before, but they did help establish a model hierarchy in the US.

You got the Discovery I in its various trim levels and then the Range Rover in several trim levels. They finished development on the Freelander so that there was a true entry level model that started in the low 20,000 range. The Freelander didn't launch in the US till after Ford owned the company but BMW did prod its development and the development of the new Range Rover which shared some components with the X5.

Land Rover struggled of course with reliability problems because BMW did nothing to address those concerns but Ford did. Ford also helped them immensely with marketing and development of new models. Ford got a real model hierarchy established finally by 2005-2007. You had the Freelander that was replaced by the all new LR2. Then came the LR3 larger and more luxurious then the freelander. The Range Rover Sport was next much more luxurious then the LR3 but built on the same platform to save costs and it was a more sporty model. A significant move up the brand hierarchy because it was badged a Range Rover.

Finally you had the grand daddy Range Rover sitting atop the model hierarchy.

I had customers that went from Freelander when they first bought a Land Rover and luckily got a fairly reliable Freelander. Then they bought a Discovery and later replaced that with a LR3. Some of the customers are in LR3s again now but some are in Range Rover Sports or Range Rovers. They may never have bought the Range Rovers and LR3s if they hadn't' been introduced to all that the brand offered when they bought their Freelanders and Discoveries. Without those entry level models that are a determinant to the luxury brand the brand would have missed out on the highly profitable future sales that the entry level buyer will eventually make.

I mentioned that Range Rover/Land Rover in the 80s through the 90s was a perpetual money loser. It lost money for Ford too but starting making money around 2005 and in 2006 made over a billion dollars wold wide for Ford. I think they also made money in 2007 but started struggling like everyone else towards the end of 2007 to 2008.

stever

you are welcome to call me a 'Toy fanboy' if it makes you feel better,

And we could stick to the topic and not call each other names at all. It's about the cars and the company anyway. :shades:

I'm going to cross-post this over in Inconsiderate Drivers (share your stories, etc.) where it really belongs, but I didn't see any other interesting Hyundai news to help get back on track in here.

Really bad parking job is really good PR for Hyundai (walletpop.com)

captain2

The customer gets the badge at a more attainable price at a younger age then they would be able to afford a real BMW or Merc or Audi or whatever.
of course, that 'attainability' (easy or hard) is a key element to the luxury car. The Genesis sedan, IMO, is plainly too 'attainable' IMO. It is interesting thought that you would discount things like the entry level BMWs and Mercs from being 'real' examples of the brand, exactly the point I guess I didn't make so well?

british_rover

he customer gets the badge at a more attainable price at a younger age then they would be able to afford a real BMW or Merc or Audi or whatever.

Notice the italics around that real.

You do know what that means right?

Sure a C-Class or a 3 series are Real BMWs. The 1 series is a real BMW too. It should have been smaller and lighter to really harken back to what a 2002 was but it is still a real BMW.

You could make an argument that the A4 isn't a real BMW because it shares some components with more plebian VWs but I would disagree. The motor is out front mounted longitudinally and it gets real quattro so it is an Audi.

The A3 on the other hand well you could make an legitimate argument that it isn't a real Audi. It shares too much with the Golf.

Just go ahead and ignore the rest of my post too.

It probably went over your head anyway.

Hyundai wants people to associate/identify with the Genesis as a premium sub-brand within the Hyundai group. Land Rover does the same thing with Range Rovers and it works pretty well.

lemko

Would a Lexus be considered a luxury car if it was sold as a Toyota in the same dealership alongside Corollas and Yarises?

toye

I'm doing a unoffical survey with Genesis owners on another blog which asks the simple question... If the Genesis didn't exist what automobile would you have purchased.. if any? It will interesting if the Genesis is pulling from luxury brands or not!

houdini1

Well, you can count me as a Genesis Fanboy...and I drive a Lexus LS. Right now, the Genesis is the ONLY car I would consider to replace my LS.

The Equus (I hope they change the name) has my attention for a couple of years down the road and I can't wait to drive one.

tjc78

You know we go back and forth here about whether the Genesis is a luxury car. If you go by the title of the forum "is there room...." we are really off topic. IMO in this economic climate, it may actually be a benefit that the Genesis is not sold at a "luxury" dealership. All of the luxury makes are down right now. Hyundai is up, so you would have to assume that foot traffic at their dealers is up as well Lots of exposure for the Genesis.

The last thing we need in this country is another auto make. GM is shrinking, Chrysler is dying a slow death and yet a company that is way up in a crappy economic time is going to take a huge gamble? Heck no, I really think Hyundai is doing the right thing not creating a lux brand right now. They sold around 17K Gen sedans since introduction out of their existing dealer network. How many more would they have sold out of a new dealership? If I were a betting man, I would actually say less.

toye

I think a few more would have sold but at what cost would have it cost Hyundai?

m4d_cow

The answer to me is easy: yes, given time, effort, and patience. Nuff' said, I guess.

Hyundai's doing the right thing right now, that I agree. Pulling a whole new luxury division costs too much for the time being, particularly since Hyundai currently has no reputation in the market. And yeah, they smartly place Genesis as a near luxo as IMO, a warm-up for the real luxury car to come into the market.

Unfortunately this is where the controversy, at least here, starts. One side considers Genesis a luxury car already, while the other side disagrees. To be honest I'm most probably biased, but as far as I see the latter side is being more logical in general. Not to say there's no luxury Hyundai, there is, but not this car IMO.

I understand that different standards play a role here, what I don't understand is why is it so hard for many people here to understand that?

Of course, in the end I guess it's like what another poster said earlier: iressistable force vs. immovable object.

tjc78

Obviously the cost would have been well into the tens of millions. Not worth it in the short term. I really believe the execs over there thought this one out. There is one thing I do believe, if they do create a lux brand in the future they have the engineering and the hardware to do so.

toye

There's no question that Genesis in my mind and many others that it is a luxury automobile made by Hyundai which is not a luxury brand. Hyundai will have to invest sooner than later to position the Genesis, Equus and Veracruz with the Genesis nameplate. Now that they have over a year of data, decent Genesis sales, I believe that it won't be as risky as it once was!!

tjc78

One side considers Genesis a luxury car already, while the other side disagrees

No doubt... even as an owner of one I would call it "luxurious", however, not "luxury" as it still is available to the masses.

Pulling a whole new luxury division costs too much for the time being, particularly since Hyundai currently has no reputation in the market.

I wouldn't say no reputation, if anything they still may have a tainted rep for the junk they built in the late 80s. However, those perceptions are surely going away (for their benefit).

backy

Question: do you consider the GS and M to be luxury cars? And did you see the article posted a little while ago here that dove into which brands/cars lost sales while the Genesis grabbed sales?

If you believe the GS and M are not luxury cars, then I can understand why you'd think the Genesis sedan is not a luxury car. But if you think the GS and M are luxury cars, then I don't understand your position on the Genesis unless you think, as do others, that being a "luxury car" or not is not about the car itself but other things like the badge on the trunk or the building in which it's sold and serviced.

And I would add that reasonable people will sometime disagree... and it's not because one of the people is dense and incapable of understanding something that seems obvious to the other person.

m4d_cow

I still see GS and M as luxury cars. I won't change my mind about Genesis being a near-luxo car, however, it is possible for a near luxury car to grab sales from luxury car market as shown by Hyundai nowadays. As like you mentioned before, there are people who want more for the money.

Assuming GS and M as comparisons, I can easily point out why I don't classify Genesis for a luxury car for 2 reasons I often mentioned before: 1. the lack of proper luxury class customer service (in most dealers out there, excluding yours :shades: ), 2. the lack of premium quality materials (fake metal and wood trims, mid-grade leather). Time will most likely fix problem-1, and Equus can fix problem-2.

This is also the reason I classify Acura as "still working on entering the luxury market", because it's only luxury entry, the RL, still has so much to catch up tot he rest of the class. And yes, before anyone ask, I call the likes of BMW 3 series a near-luxury car with luxury-badge, even as a previous owner of one.

Badge is considered, but no big deal, hence my comment that Hyundai Equus, Toyota Crown, and VW Phaeton are luxury cars (despite the non- luxury badge). Hope taht makes sense to you as I have no other way to explain it.

backy

OK. But it's interesting you give the M a pass for "the vents are pure Altima and the switchgear’s about as classy as the buttons on your first cell phone" (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/infiniti-m45/) and the GS a pass for touchy brakes and insufficient headroom (http://www.edmunds.com/lexus/gs460/2008/review.html), but ding the Genesis on lack of rosewood and aluminum trim and leather quality (although that doesn't seem to be an issue for many reviewers). If real wood and aluminum trim bits are what you need to call your ride a luxury car (even if the glossy wood trim blinds you--see edmunds.com review), plus the badging and cappuccino machines in the customer waiting area, so be it. At least you have a clear idea of what a luxury car means to you, and it's not just based on a badge or building.

m4d_cow

To me almost all car manufacturers share those small bits, be it Toy-Lexus, Hon-Acura, Nissan-Infiniti, and even VW-Audi-Bentley to some extent. And no, room doesnt mean much to me (hell, given my 5"8 figure a GS is almost cavernous). Leather quality IMO matches Infiniti G's and Acura TL's, a.k.a appropriate for class. Against M and GS' much softer leather (albeit much pricier), no way. Pricey? yeah, but luxury has it's costs. IMO most reviewers see no problem with those bits because they keep the price in mind.

So yeah, to each of his/her own.

carolinabob

If Hyundai was capable of a luxury model, why do so many people want to take all the Hyundai badging, including H's on wheels, off their cars? Why have so many done it to Azera and Genesis already?
Are they ashamed to be seen in a Hyundai?
Why did Hyundai take its name off the Genesis and the Equus?
Nicely equipped cars, but not luxury cars yet in the BMW, M-B, Lexus, et. al. sense. Not a luxury make/model.

tjc78

Bob,

You really have a clear cut agenda here against Hyundai. If you feel they have done you wrong so be it, and I feel for you. However, to grasp at straws suggesting that the "rebadge" has any effect on what an Azera or Genesis is, is a big stretch IMO. To some the "wings" look better than the slanty H and others just like adding a bit of curiousity to their ride. Heck, even my stock badge Genesis gets a lot of "what is that?"

I have a friend with WRX completed DE-badged. Does that mean he is ashamed of Subaru? No, he just likes the look.

stever

What's funnier is that people take off the Hyundai badges and put BMW or MB or Lexus badges on.

And no one notices the difference. :shades:

backy

The Hyundai badge is on the Genesis. The Equus is not yet for sale in the USA so we don't know how it will be badged.

I frequently see cars sans badges. These include MB, BMW, Hondas, and others. Are all of these owners "ashamed" to be seen in a car by one of those brands? I don't know.

But if it makes an owner of a Genesis feel better by removing the Hyundai badge and going sans badge or adding a fake badge ala "Genesis", that's their privilege.

You still haven't answered the question I posed several days ago re how a totally unknown brand/badge--Genesis--will magically elevate the Genesis sedan to luxury-car status, unless there is a solid, well-respected brand behind it, as with Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, and Nissan/Infiniti. If the Hyundai brand has no value and no reputation for quality, nor will a "Genesis" brand.

toye

This article about Hyundai is an excellent example of Hyundai's rise in the auto and advertising world. It's getting harder and harder keep putting down Hyundai with yet another ringing endorsement of "HYUNDAI" and their products.

adage.com/moy09/article_id=14038

m4d_cow

If Hyundai really brings Equus to the US, how about giving us the Asian and KDM market name to it: Centennial? That sounds so much better than Equus.sp :P

toye

To me that's worse than Equus.. I expect they will expand the "Genesis" to include 3 vehicles. During the past year and half the Genesis has developed a name and reputation for itself. It will be one more step in the direction of Genesis becoming it's own nameplate.

backy

For some reason "Centennial" conjures up images of Conestoga wagons lumbering over the Great Plains. :P

m4d_cow

Ah, I haven't lived long enough to experience that. :P

backy

Books and movies. There was actually a (famous) book called "Centennial". It wasn't about a Hyundai.

stever

I think it's Michener's best one.

In Hyundai news, not much.

There's the usual "If you've mistaken Hyundai's Genesis sedan for a Lexus or Mercedes-Benz, you are forgiven. It's an easy mistake" review at the Montreal Gazette.

houdini1

I think they should just call it "THE BIG KAHUNA".

bobad

That brings to mind the movie "Independence Day".

I see nothing wrong with putting a small group of premium cars under the Genesis banner. However, creating separate dealerships makes no sense in today's market.

lemko

...the lousy early 1990s economy that scuttled Mazda's plans for an upscale Amati make. The attractive 1992 Mazda 929 was the manifestation of what was to be the Amati car. This economy is even worse than that of the early 1990s and it would be foolish to have separate Genesis dealerships.

fintail

I can see mistaking it for a BMW, as the styling is a pretty close copy...but a MB?

stever

Well, some of us see a C-Class and think it's a Sentra.

m4d_cow

BMW??? I can see people mistaking it for a 90s model of C and E class, or Infiniti from behind. But I don't see any similarities with BMW.....

fintail

The greenhouse of the Genesis mimics the 5er to an uncanny level. The rear profile is also tremendously similar, along with the body contouring.

I don't see any MB styling characteristics at all, save for maybe the general grille shape, but the weirded-up Hyundai interpretation puts some distance there. What am I missing?

Regarding Sentra/C-class...the cure for that one is an updated glasses or contacts prescription :P

captain2

...the lousy early 1990s economy that scuttled Mazda's plans for an upscale Amati make. The attractive 1992 Mazda 929 was the manifestation of what was to be the Amati car
check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Millenia
the Millenia was the car that was to be Amati's first effort, and it was Ford, Ford's financial problems and the fact that Mazda had nowhere near as good as a name as Toyota and/or Honda did that eventually lead to the scrapping of the whole Mazda 'lux brand' idea., and the eventual 'failure' of the Millenia. The whole Amati thing was supposed to happen in the early/middle 90s - following Acura's/Lexus's/Infinti's lead a few years earlier. The supposedly bad economy you mention in the early 90s certainly didn't have a whole lot of negative effect on Acura or Lexus, did it?. The 929, incidentally, predated any of this - the car itself goes back into the 70s (Cosmo) and as a 929 into the 80s , was RWD, and did provide some competition to the big Toyotas (Cressida?) and Nissan/Datsun (810) at the time well before the Amati brand and those other J3 lux brands were even pipedreams. .
The Millenia was a fine upscale sedan in many ways, with a bit of powertrain innovation and upgraded enough that it could have competed with (at least) Acura at the time. As an Amati we'll never know - but as a Mazda it didn't have a chance. Mazda though has always been a rather innovative and pioneering mfgr even if it has been a mainstream brand. Ford, currently in its own financial mess, has pretty much dissolved its interest in Toyo Koygo (Mazda) these days. I look for some better things from the brand, much like it was 30 or 40 years ago.
Although,the Millenia definitely had its sights set a bit lower, there are some inescapable parallels here with what Hyundai is trying to do with the Genesis - trying to compete in the luxury arena with a definitively non luxury brand.

stever

The Sentra/C-Class comparison sounds funny on paper but when a sedan cruises by, I usually have no clue what it is unless the badge is obvious. A passing C-Class looks as CamCord as the next car in line.

I bet most of the population couldn't tell you which was which if you parked most cars side by side, debadged.

Hyundai may as well copy MB or BMW or Aston Martin because it doesn't take much to mimic most sedans these days. If you try to stand out too much, you'll wind up in Aztek territory.

fintail

There's being derivative, and there's copying, not always the same thing.

The Genesis coupe is a pleasant-enough unique design. You can be original and not stand out in a negative way. Some car designers just need to put a little more effort into their jobs.

stever

True enough. And car guys will get it. The general population won't.

If Mystery car pix.... was a TV game show, not many people would go home with bedroom sets or cruises or "other valuable prizes".

Searching for Character in the Age of Uniformity (Edmunds Daily)