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Toyota is on the Offensive. Will it work?

drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
edited August 17 in Toyota
In tribute to the very successful GM discussion, a dicussion of the World's #1 brand is in order. Lovers and haters, please feel free to stop by and share. :blush:

Tundra and Prius are setting sales records. Camry sales are increasing at an almost alarming rate.

People are really satrting to look to Toyota Hybrids when gas prices shoot up.

Quality is down somewhat, but still ahead of the competition.

New competitors want to knock them off the top of the mountain.

Who can stop Toyota?

Can it be done?

Where will Toyota peak?

Who won't live to see the end of the battle?

DrFill
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Comments

  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    To start off, Toyota is a living testament how an organization should be ran, especially given its size. I respect Toyota in many ways.

    Now to the details:

    Who can stop Toyota?

    Toyota.

    Camry sales are increasing at an almost alarming rate.

    To be accurate, the Camry sales are increasing with the inclusion of the hybrid model recently, otherwise, flat.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    :)

    Last time I checked, there is a Camry Hybrid.

    Hybrid power didn't help the Accord.

    So I'm not sure of the point thur. :confuse:

    DrFill
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,391
    Amusing title.

    You certainly have a point there. The Accord hybrid was one of those rare eggs that Honda laid. I'm somewhat surprised at that in that in gives a lot of bang for the mileage. I'm guessing that folks have pretty well decided that they want mpg over 0 - 60 when it comes to hybrids. In this case Toyota bet right and Honda didn't.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    You feel me. :blush:

    How does the 2008 Accord fit into this? Will it slow down the Camry Love Train?

    Camry sales may reach 500k this year, the first time in decades a car has sold 500k in a single year.

    Tundra also has a chance to reach the once-thought outlandish goal of 200k in less than a full year. :surprise:

    DrFill
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,059
    If you were following the Accord Hybrid discussion prior to and after the fall, you would know that most posters were negative about Honda using the V6 to gain power rather than mileage. Toyota may or may not have picked up on that. They did the smart thing building the TCH with the 4 cylinder engine. And it is a popular car. If Toyota had gone for the HP rather than the economy as they did with the HH, Camry sales would not be where they are today. If you have a typical dealership you know how hard it is to unload a Highlander Hybrid. The ones on the lots here are advertised at below invoice. The RX400h is more popular because the wealthier buyers do not really care as much about mileage as performance and that GREEN feeling they get.
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,391
    It will be very interesting to see what happens with the 08 Accord.

    It does seem that Honda is taking the approach of not wanting to lose face on what they perceive as the failure of the Accord Hybrid. They'll put out an Accord and then a separate Accord-like vehicle called something else in hybrid form.

    Now I am one who favors the Accord over the Camry usually but I think it will be a long time before we ever see the Accord outselling the Camry again.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,059
    If Honda makes good on their promise of a 2009 diesel Accord, I think they will gain back much lost ground. The diesel Accord has the potential for close to 50 MPG on the highway. It will directly compete against all the Camry models including the hybrid.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Americans take to diesel the way they've taken to hybrids.

    It has taken Toyota several years to get to this point with Hybrid acceptance.

    I haven't seen any evidence that sales are increasing for diesel power, outside of full-size pick-ups. :(

    DrFill
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,391
    Easy enough to say because at the moment there aren't any diesel cars to buy.

    I suspect that as the new diesels come in people are going to change their minds about them. Will they take to them like they are taking to hybrids? I don't know. To me the attractiveness of the diesel is that the technology has been around for ages, there's no ton of batteries in it and you don't have to teach yourself to drive exactly the opposite of how you normally do.

    I actually welcome the competition. When somebody puts out a diesel hybrid that generates more energy than it consumes I'm there!
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    VW does have the Jetta TDI

    And Mercedes has BlueTec

    And jeep had the Liberty CRD.

    I haven't gotten news of any stampedes for those vehicles.

    If anyone can do it, Honda can, doh. ;)

    I believe Diesels will take off here, but not until 2010 or beyond, when GM releases their 4.5L that goes into the Silverado and Hummer. Dodge will have a smaller Cummins for the 2009 Dodge Ram as well.

    The full-size trucks will start to rely on diesels in the future, and that push should trickle down at some point.

    DrFill
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,318
    diesel hybrid that generates more energy than it consumes I'm there!

    That sounds like perpetual motion. Sign me up for some of that too. :shades:

    I don't have much interest in a diesel (maybe a little VW pickup) and if I'm going to haul batteries around, I'd almost rather have an all electric car and skip the gas or diesel entirely. Or just engage the gas on long trips (I think Toyota is looking at this idea already).

    Toyota is doing a bunch of battery research so hopefully someone will make a breakthrough. Batteries really aren't there yet I don't think.

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • fezofezo Posts: 9,391
    Yeah, I hear that it just what Toyota is working on. In theory at least it would mean if I had one like that my commute would never use any gasoline at all. I could live with that.

    Indeed - there will be a big breakthrough on batteries. Whoever figures it out will make a fortune.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Will be the future, but Toyota will wait until they are 100% sure it is ready.

    Honda may beat them to the punch, as is their way.

    Toyota is ready to bet the farm on Hybrids, so they will be more cautious.

    The 2009 Prius will still be Nickel. ;)

    DrFill
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,318
    There was some negative press about lithium ions and Toyota recently but I'm positive they are still charging away at it. ;)

    Lithium-ion-powered Toyota Prius put on hold (Straightline)

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,059
    Full sized trucks are already selling 40% diesel from the Big 3. If the cars were available in all 50 states they would have good sales. The diesel VWs are sold at MSRP most of the time. Mercedes is doing very well in 45 states with their 4 diesel vehicles.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    We are on the same page (for once ;) ), I think. Anyway, I did mention the Camry hybrid.

    I pointed out the Camry sales was largely helped by the new hybrid model. If you subtract out the Camry hybrid sales, the regular Camry (and I think Toyota includes the Solara too), you would see the net results similar to last year's, of the same period.

    Hybrid power didn't help the Accord.

    Personally I think V6 and hybrid doesn't glue too well together. I am glad Honda is dropping the hybrid and coming out with the diesel entry.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Critics want to spin this so it's like Toyota is building exploding batteries or something.

    Sony has also had problems implimenting the sensetive batteries, too.

    Obviously the batteries aren't up to Toyota's standards yet, and they are working on it.

    As successful as the Prius is, would you rush a replacement to market? :blush:

    DrFill
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,059
    I think most here consider Toyota smart to back off on Li-Ion. I for one do not think it will ever be the answer. Something else will come along. Until then the NiMH will have to carry the hybrid load. So far they are doing fine.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Their PR dept sure is keeping it on the down low! :(

    Jetta sales are down 6%.

    I think sales would be rising if diesel was in demand over at VW, considering gas prices. Just my opinion.

    I believe Mercedes is having better luck.

    DrFill
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,353
    You kinda can't argue with success:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=arCITDsM1kRw&refer=home

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    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,476
    Sure you can it just isn't very successful.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    You know where the party's at! :shades:

    GM and Dodge are in no rush to release detailed sales figures.

    I'd be interested in how the Silverado and Ram did, with Tundra taking another large leap in sales, from 13k to 17k to 21k. :surprise:

    I know Ford did 65k.

    If you walk onto a Honda lot, do you see Accords stickering for less than $20k?

    DrFill
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,059
    Where is the profit margin if you have to give such big incentives to sell the Tundra? Its not working at So CA dealers. They are gorged with Tundra trucks sitting unsold. Oh, I forgot Toyota counts them as sold once the dealer takes possession. A convenient way to spin the sales figures. We put 21k Tundra vehicles on our dealers flooring. Of course they only sold a few of them. How many Toyota dealers in the USA? I know the one close to me has at least 30 Tundra trucks lining the lot that faces the street. Maybe a $5k rebate, 0% financing as long as you like and Toyota will make the payments. That would be a fair deal. :shades:
  • dtownfbdtownfb Posts: 2,915
    Actually gagrice, I'm pretty sure most car manufacturers count their car sales this way. It is not just Toyota.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,059
    Actually I have no idea. Someone today posted that Toyota and Honda count the vehicles when shipped. Maybe someone has some real data to back that up one way or another. If there are 1500 dealers with 10 of a model sitting unsold that is a lot of claimed sales. You would think that the automakers have an up to the minute sales figure from the dealer network. It is not rocket science. There has to be millions of unsold vehicles sitting on dealers lots all over the USA. Those should not be included in monthly sales figures.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    In regards to making sales, as Ford can't lose share fast enough. The domestics are legendary for their shenanigans when it comes to sold vs. registrations vs reporting dates.

    Are you saying Toyota is inventing some way of counting deals no other maker is using?

    You know Toyota is making money on more of their trucks anyway, as you WILL NOT find a Tundra for less than $20k, no matter if there is $3k or $4k on the hood.

    Toyota itself, above and beyond invoice, is probably making $3-4 a unit anyway. Pickups trucks are one of the best ways for a company to actually make money selling vehicles. They're cash cows, that's why the domestics are so defensive about them.

    GM is already counter-marketing against Tundra in their new commercials. ;)

    That profit should increase after this year, when the 5.7/suspension/platform is spread throughout Toyotadom.

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    In a perfect world, probably not.

    I can't verify if that is the case, but if it were, as far as they are concerned, the vehicle is as good as sold.

    Toyota will never see that vehicle again, except in service. The dealer WILL retail that vehicle. They are paying insurance on it.

    Don't think Toyota takes "We Owe" on delivery. :P

    DrFill
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Their PR dept sure is keeping it on the down low!

    Jetta sales are down 6%.

    I think sales would be rising if diesel was in demand over at VW, considering gas prices. Just my opinion.

    I believe Mercedes is having better luck.


    Jetta's diesel entry is coming back for 2008MY. Diesel is not available for 2007MY.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Diesels can't gain traction, because they have to constantly adjust to emissions standards, not to mention performance standards and economy standards.

    2 years on, 1 year off, is no way to build a following.

    Most companies would go under if they worked 2-3 years, then took a year off.

    Hard to build a business case for that. A lot of money has been lost on the diesel engine. At least in cars. :sick:

    DrFill
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