Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options

Toyota is on the Offensive. Will it work?

12467…16

Comments

  • Options
    nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I put "Toyota" into my navigation, and ended up in Powerstroke bashing site. Which way is the Toyota discussion, please? :blush:
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I believe that is because the good doctor stated the Tundra would be getting the Navistar diesel engine.

    Go ahead and bash away on Toyota and I will cheer you on :)
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I think I just heard a pin drop.

    DrFill
  • Options
    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually I think it's Nissan that's talking with Navistar. Assuming of course that Ford and Navistar divorce.

    From Autoblog...NaviTitan?...TitanStar?

    The various rumours about a Toyota HD have always had a yellow feline flavor.
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    which is likely, they will use Isuzu/Hino for the powerplant.

    DrFill
  • Options
    hotel1hotel1 Member Posts: 50
    Seems the new tundra didn't sell to well with fewer than
    80k units produced. 08 production started today according
    to wheels.com.............

    Not to mention in NY there is $5000 cash AND special APR
    deals to be had. Stingy GM only has $1500 OR special APR.

    Could it be the $40k plus sticker shock?
    The reports of transmission failures?
    The breaking camshaft issues?

    While GM and the other truck makers are down also this
    does not bode well for a new design.
    Esp. with all the we will sell 200k of these new design
    claims................
    It seems reputation alone won't help the tundra........
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    On NY pick-up truck sales?

    If you go to a New York City showroom (half of New York's population), out of all the dealers you MIGHT see 5 Tundras actaully in a delaership!

    New York doesn't buy pick-up trucks. For what?

    Texas and the midwest buy pick-up trucks. Period.

    Tundra is over 20k units a month, and hasn't leveled-off yet.

    Based on basically 9 months this year for the new truck, Tundra WILL sell 200k this year. ;)

    Don't bet money, bet the farm, and your NYC Condo on it!

    I wouldn't have said that in May, but I can say that today.

    People who drive it, buy it. :blush:

    DrFill
  • Options
    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    You ever been to the rest of New York?

    Once you get out of Long Island, NYC and its suburbs New York is as country as Virginia or Texas when I lived there.
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    about the rest of New York.

    Does anybody care about the San Fransisco Giants, or Barry Bonds?

    I've never been north of Yonkers. Why would I? :confuse:

    Take out Buffalo, Syracuse, Yonkers, MYC, you have maybe 2 million people? Scattered throughout a pretty large state?

    Nobody cares. Nobody cares about Wyoming either.

    DrFill
  • Options
    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Oh so now we have to forget about Buffalo, Syracuse and all the big cities besides NYC?

    Changing your tune I see?

    People in small towns by trucks too and they probably buy more trucks then cars.

    Wyoming is not the same as New York. There are only 500,000 people in Wyoming. To compare Wyoming to New York State is stupid.

    19.1 million people live in New York with only 8 million living in NYC proper.
  • Options
    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I like Barry Bonds and wish I could see him hit one out of the park (I got to see Aaron hit one close to the record).

    Upstate New York is nice too - great canoeing lakes.

    Paisan, a host here, lives in NYC. He drives SUVs - has to tow his race cars and speedboat around.

    I doubt that Toyota is going to write off NY state as a market for the Tundra (or baseball fans or Wyoming either).
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    That's not what I said.

    NYC is not a pick-up truck market, unless it's fleet/business use, and Tundra isn't in that market. :(

    Buffalo and Syracuse will sell some trucks, but compare that to San Antonio, or New Orleans, or Oklahoma City.

    Using NY as a barometer for pick-up truck interest, that's stupid. :sick:

    DrFill
  • Options
    joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    But isn't $5,000+ based on national average?
  • Options
    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    What 'Yota should do is discontinue the V6 non-hybrid highlander and tell buyers, "If you want the power of the V6 you have to buy the hybrid."

    That would work.

    Anyone who buys a V6 non-hybrid highlander with a hybrid sitting there just as powerful AND more fuel efficient is a doofus anyway.
  • Options
    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Toyota Needs Discounts for Tundra Goal, Press Says (Bloomberg)
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If Toyota were to build a 4 cylinder hybrid Highlander would it sell? I doubt it. It is bigger and heavier than the TCH. It is too little gain in mileage for way too much money. Just does not hit the target like the Prius and TCH. Toyota should just cut their losses on all the other hybrids. Only the Prius and TCH are winners. Same will be the case if they try a hybrid Sienna.
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Considering the fact that Toyota has offered a 4-cylinder HL for years, and the $35-40k HL Hybrid as well, they have a pretty good read on the market.

    The V6 HL saves you several thousand dollars, and now matched the Hybrid in power, so it will be the volume model, as it was before.

    http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/top10/116743/article.html

    Toyota doesn't do failure too good. Failure will be something like the Malibu Hybrid. ;)

    DrFill
  • Options
    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I see that Bloomberg refers to Edmunds here about the $5000 incentive.. Do you have any way to verify if they are making it up or how your colleagues came to this number?

    What's strange is that we are at $2000-$2500 incentive with most transaction prices well above invoice at that so I can't imagine where the $5000 figure comes from. Edmunds wouldn't be guessing would they? Unless they are talking about the interest savings on the 0% for 60 months. That is an incentive of about $5000.

    I'd like to see the source.
    Current info from Edmunds
    Zip Code 92150 Incentives in SoCal
    Zip Code 23320 Incentives in SE VA
    Zip Code 07470 Incentives NY/NJ region NO inctives on the Tundra
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Maybe they're adding dealer cash? Matters not. It's not like domestics didn't start this game. Now Toyota isn't supposed to play?

    That's like the pot calling a pot a pot! :P

    DrFill
  • Options
    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Here's all I know about True Cost of Incentives (TCI):

    "Edmunds.com's TCI is a comprehensive monthly report that measures automobile manufacturers' cost of incentives on vehicles sold in the United States. These costs are reported on a per vehicle basis for the industry as a whole, for each manufacturer, for each make sold by each manufacturer and for each model of each make. TCI covers all aspects of manufacturers' various incentives programs (except volume and similar bonus programs), including dealer cash, manufacturer rebates and consumer savings from subvented APR and lease programs (including subvented lease residual values used in manufacturer leasing programs). Data for the industry, the manufacturers and the makes are derived using weighted averages and are based on actual monthly sales and financing activity."

    link

    And here's a pdf file from the company president talking about TCI to the Society of Automotive Analysts' a few years ago:

    link

    [edit] Forgot to mention the always handy real world discussions, in this case Toyota Tundra: Prices Paid & Buying Experience.
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    If someone takes 0%, and saves $5200, that is averaged against the amount of all loans, vs customers who take cash back, vs the amount of vehicles sold.

    DrFill
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The V6 HL saves you several thousand dollars, and now matched the Hybrid in power, so it will be the volume model, as it was before.

    I would hope the HH has more power than the straight V6. it is a V6 with HSD. This is what so many buyers run into at Toyota dealerships. Salesmen that are not up on what they are selling. Unless your shop is much different than those in CA. The HH is not a big mover. They sit on the lots with big signs in the windows selling at and below invoice.
  • Options
    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    According to Edmunds, a 2007 Highlander Hybrid Limited in Los Angeles area:

    MSRP: $34,610
    Invoice: $31,007
    TMV: $32,579

    Looks to me most of the HHs are still going out the door at around 1 grand over invoice. Not bad for a lame duck model.
  • Options
    anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    The first Highlander sold with a 4-cylinder, I don't see why a hybrid-4 wouldn't. A hybrid Sienna would be very popular I think. Seems like a logical progression in Toyotas hybrid plans...
  • Options
    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Anyone who buys a V6 non-hybrid highlander with a hybrid sitting there just as powerful AND more fuel efficient is a doofus anyway

    It's not quite that simple.

    First off, the hybrid costs thousands more. You have to consider how many miles you drive per year, how long you keep your cars, assume what gas prices will cost, calculate a break-even point, and only then can you decide if it's worth it for you.

    The other issue is that they now use the 2GR engine in the non-hybrid V6s, and that V6 makes nearly 270hp in various applications.

    The hybrid uses the 3.3l V6. Even the 2008 model will still use the older 3MZ engine. By itself that V6 makes much, much less power. With electric boost the power is roughly the same but it still makes less torque.

    The third, and also important consideration, is that the 2GR engine costs less to produce than the 3MZ. What that means is the cost difference between the regular V6 Highlander and the hybrid will increase. Perhaps not retail prices, but production costs for Toyota for the regular V6 will be several thousand dollars less.

    Want a 4th reason? You got it. The 2GR engine is more fuel efficient than the 3MZ. Mileage ratings went up for models that got the 3.5l in place of the 3.3l. So the hybrid mileage advantage will shrink.
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am going by the hand painted signs in the windows of the HH campared to the window sticker. The prices were below invoice. Poway Toyota if you are looking for a deal on an HH. They may have gotten rid of them all with fire sale pricing.
  • Options
    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    How meaningful are those, though?

    You walk in, they add freight, they add a processing fee, an advertising fee, and suddenly the transaction price is $2500 higher than you expected.

    Signs like that mean nothing.
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The point is they were selling for MSRP and over not that long ago. I think the Highlander Hybrid has run its course. It just is not as practical as the Prius or TCH.

    If the price posted is a scam you just walk.
  • Options
    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm sure that happened in some places.

    The Highlander itself is long in the tooth and about to be replaced. I think the hybrid is doing OK all things considered.

    Too bad Toyota doesn't get HSD to work with the new, more powerful/efficient 2GR engine family, though.
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Didn't they use the new engine in the GS450 hybrid?
  • Options
    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    With the new Highlander coming of course the current model is going to suffer on the price. However, it still is pretty good that the current lame duck HH is going out the door at around 1 grand over the invoice.

    Don't understand why the Highlander Hybrid is "not as practical" as the Prius or TCH? Isn't the point of hybrid is to increase fuel efficiency? If that's the case, a good hybrid engine should be practical on ALL the models. According to Toyota, by year 2020 every single model that Toyota makes will have a hybrid engine as standard.

    I personally am already on the hybrid wagon and think it has a brighter future than diesel or ethenal. With the battery technology advancing as we speak, the day that the electric engine to replace the gasoline engine as the primary power source in a hybrid configuration should not be that far away.
  • Options
    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good point, though that is a much higher price point (over $55 grand).

    The RX and Highlander still use the old 3.3l V6. I believe even the new 2008 Highlander Hybrid will use the 3.3l, IIRC.

    Funny thing is the 3.5l costs less to manufacture! You'd think Toyota would try to phase out the costly, less powerful, less effiecient 3.3l from the entire lineup.
  • Options
    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yep, still uses the old 3.3l 3MZ engine:

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=121374

    Don't ask me why, though. Costs more, makes less power and torque than the 2GR engine family.

    As you mentioned the GS has the 3.5l with HSD so I don't get why they didn't put that in the new HH.

    For that reason alone, though, I think I'd take a regular V6 2008 Highlander over a the hybrid model. I'd save several thousand up front and get about 10% more torque, since I tow on occasion.

    I have that 3.5l V6 in my minivan and it's a sweet mill.
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    With the battery technology advancing as we speak

    That may be your opinion. I do not think you can show evidence to that end. Toyota dropped their talk of the Prius PHEV for 2009 because the Li-Ion is just not working as hoped for.

    My understanding is the 2008 HH is essentially the same hybrid system with a bloated body. How will that add to the economy?
  • Options
    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Lithium Ion may not work as what Toyota had in mind RIGHT NOW but would you bet your bank account that it wouldn't in say 3 to 5 years?

    The HH is more fuel efficient than the V6 version isn't it?
  • Options
    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Probably the retooling to adapt the new engine to the HSD system is prohibitive for the market.
  • Options
    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The HH is more fuel efficient than the V6 version isn't it?

    Moderately, but remember for 2008 the regular V6 model upgrades to the 3.5l 2GR engine while the HH sticks with the old 3.3l 3MZ mill.

    My guess is the already small advantage in the real-world will shrink even further.
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    of which I speak, let us review:

    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=121374/pageNumber=1

    The Eco mode should help low-speed mileage improve. :)

    The vehicle is bigger and heavier, but the engine is more powerful, yet more efficient, with a better transmission. I would expect a 1-2 MPG improvement in real-world economy. Soemwhere areound 20 MPG, vs the 23-25 you can get out of the Hybrid.

    Toyota is going to run into a problem. Do they make the 3.5 into a Hybrid, and how do you make it more efficient, yet powerful enough to stand over the gas 3.5? If you add too much power, you get into the Accord Zone. :sick:

    Could they make a 3.5 with LESS power, but MORE torque (the 2008 is around 246lb.ft), but getting 8-10MPG better, maybe as a 2010 model?

    DrFill
  • Options
    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So Edmunds got 23.8 mpg vs. 22.8 for the old one. Slight improvement there. 0-60 in 7.5 seconds is also pretty good.

    They don't list a price but I'd guess the MSRP is close to $40 grand.

    Their last RAV4 V6 hit 60 slightly quicker, 7.1 seconds, and got 20.2 mpg. Their long-term RAV4 V6 got 19.9 mpg. Let's call it an even 20.

    So the HH did about 19% better and was almost as quick, but it'll cost you about $10 grand more than that RAV4 in real-world prices.

    If the 3.5l Highlander is heavier and uses more fuel than the RAV4 you might actually break-even within a reasonable amount of time.
  • Options
    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The first Highlander sold with a 4-cylinder, I don't see why a hybrid-4 wouldn't. A hybrid Sienna would be very popular I think. Seems like a logical progression in Toyotas hybrid plans...

    I fully agree and had hoped for a 'base' HH in the $26000 range using the Camry 4c+HSD getting 30+ mpg on average. It doesn't seem to be in the cards. Maybe the size of the new Highlander precludes the small engine.

    Similarly I had hoped for an Estima-sized hybrid Sienna for next year but I don't think so. :sick:

    My next hope is for a complete line of Prius' in 2009 including a small 1.5L sedan, 2.0L Gen3 Prius, RAV-sized 2.4L CUV and a small 2.4L minivan.
  • Options
    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually it does accomplish the same in terms of fuel savings but it's not as practical if pricing is a key or the main consideration.

    The HH is basically the Lexus 400h. It's built for performance and fun. When it first came out it was V8 power with the fuel economy of a 4c Camry. OK now the new V6's have hit the market and all are wonderful engines. The 3.3L + HSD is competitive in power and still is a blast to drive but it is somewhat less practical as an '08 due to the reasons given by ateixeira. It still is the cleanest Toyota SUV on the road.
  • Options
    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Don't dismiss the Sienna because of its size.

    I just got a new 07, with the 2GR engine, and coming back from the beach we got 29.8 mpg.

    At one point I was averaging 31.3mpg but then the speed limits increased and we went faster.

    Still, the driver controls speeds. If you stay below 65mph you can get 30+mpg in a Sienna on trips. It's geared ultra-tall, so at 65mph you are humming along at less than 2000rpm.

    A hybrid wouldn't do any better on the highway. The batteries add weight and cost. They can only lean out an engine so much. A hybrid would do better in the city, but how many people do you know that commute to a city in a big van like that?
  • Options
    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    That car needs a midsized diesel engine then or maybe a small 4c gas engine and lighter weight batteries.
  • Options
    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A diesel sounds nice, but Toyota pretty much bet the farm on HSD. I doubt we'll see them invest much in diesels.

    They are more likely to find a partner, is my guess, if they go the diesel route.

    But yeah, a diesel van would make sense. I'd just expect Dodge to get there first, with a small Cummins. Or VW, now that they will use Dodge's van platform.
  • Options
    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Honda has already announced a diesel Ody for MY 2010. They announced it this time last year. Saw it confirmed today on GMI and here
  • Options
    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Lithium Ion may not work

    I don't have a bone in this fight, but from the stories I've seen, battery breakthroughs are rare. I hope you're right about the 3 to 5 year interval, but I might just bet against you on this one.

    Are you (or anyone) following the The Great Hybrid Battery Debate and is there any news of progress in the near future?
  • Options
    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think they got gun shy when they saw all the laptop battery recalls. We were affected here at work - LOTS of lithium ion batteries went back.

    Then again, we had no actual fires, and the new batteries seem to be working OK.

    Toyota just didn't want to be bleeding edge, nor did they want the bad publicity. Plus, I'm sure the battery recall cost a fortune overall.
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Toyota will do it right. That's how they do. ;)

    DrFill
  • Options
    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Like the first couple of times toyota tried to make a full sized pickup? ;)
  • Options
    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    They've gotten it right, jes? ;)

    The journey is long. What's important is that we reach our destination together. :)

    DrFill
This discussion has been closed.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles