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Synthetic motor oil

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,795
    ..."Here in the Rocky Mountain West, the bargains/rebates on motor oil have gone away, leaving "bang for the buck" a very altered game from , say, a year ago...."

    As a plug in to the topic, that is another reason to use "synthetic" oil. @ 15,000, 20,000, 25,000 miles OCI's, that can mean a year to 2 years before an OCI is needed. It can save 5 to 9 times the resources and labor (cost of an OCI) over conventional attitudes (OCI EVERY 3,000 miles) and stock. In addition this can DRAMATICALLY decrease the cost per mile lubricated.

    For example several goals: 1. have only the oil quantity for the next OCI (lowest dollar volume, no wasted dollars sitting on the shelf in inventory) . 2. enough top up oil till the next oil changes (most engines consume oil at xyz rate) 3. one viscosity (i.e. 5w30)

    So one compromise is to buy the oil quantity on sales for X future OCI's and top up oil.

    Things can change during those periods. Funny how when a barrel of oil was in the LOW 100's, motor oil products had many rebates/sales etc. and sans that, the product was CHEAPER!!?? Now that the raw materials are "inexpensive" those very same rebates/sales are more rare and the product is... MORE expensive!?
  • wtd44wtd44 Posts: 1,211
    I'm always a little distressed by the seeming lockstep pricing in the oil and gasoline market. But then, we tolerate an international cartel that sets supply limits to manipulate the market. Retail prices are just a short step away from there.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,795
    I would agree, however as I do more research, I realize how much I do not really know as the answers to your statement can be VERY VERY simple to massively complex.

    I do know I like the side benefit of (in one example to illustrate the point) using 4 L of product in 25,000 miles (25,000 miles oil changes) when 34 L will do (3000 mile oil changes. ;) The cost savings (per mile driven) is also another benefit. :shades:
  • wtd44wtd44 Posts: 1,211
    As I recall, you use Mobil 1, correct?

    I am updating my knowledge on the current standings in the (true) synthetic market. I have several vehicles that could do well on synthetic, and I have grown a bit weary of frequent oil changes.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,795
    Yes, most happen to be Mobil One: 0w20, 5w20, 5w30, (recently) 0w30, and 5w40. However, there is one variant, Delvac One 5w40.

    I am also currently using Total Quartz INEO, 5w30, VW 507.00, (French company) which in Europe has 30,000 miles OCI recommendations. After the normal US market boilerplate warranty blather, (10,000 miles OCI- 3 each included with the car) I intend to use 30k oci's. It is rumored to be the oem fill, even as Castrol's products (same 507.00 specifications) are sold @ VW parts counters: when they are enlightened, actually carry it, or you make an issue of demanding it and if they normally don't have it.... order it. Normally they tell you the wrong Castrol product is JUST fine !!!???

    (so I am not being vague, the two variants carry the EXACT SAME nomenclature: however the right stuff is in a GOLD bottle vs the correct for other applications, BLACK bottle.) :lemon:

    I would be careful of one thing, however. (without getting too wordy) Make sure you do NOT have an engine that literally cooks oil. ( I have none that do)

    For example: Toyota has had any number of models with the offending engines. Without admitting guilt or culpability, Toyota has settled past litigated suits.

    Example 2: 03 VW Jetta gassers: 1.8T and 2.0 each have sludging (slight variations) issues.

    The TDI is run on 20-25k OCI's and has NO sludge issues and factory tool markings still visible (to gurus who have actually inspected and measured) on the camshaft lobs.@ 100,000 miles. (the next inspection is due @ 200,000 miles) ;)

    While synthetic (PAO IV and above) oil IS almost massively more resistant to sludging, it is NOT sludge proof.
  • wtd44wtd44 Posts: 1,211
    I'm glad you jogged my memory on the sludge issue, because a year ago I bought a new 2009 Pontiac (rest in peace) Vibe AWD with what I presume to be the Camry-type 2.4L I4 engine. As memory serves, this engine is not known to be sludge prone. Does that check with your remembrance?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,795
    I haven't heard one way or the other.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,795
    47,000 + miles on an OCI (oil change interval) and cleareded to go (by a real tribologist) for another 10,000 miles till ANOTHER SAMPLE (NOT change) !!! ???

    See "rlent"link title

    The vehicle is a baby at 183,000 miles....................

    25,000 miles OCI's are definitely belt and suspenders !!!!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,795
    I have read in more than a few web sites that Castrol markets a 5w30 VW 507.00 EDGE product world wide, but not currently available in the US supply channels.
  • burtkburtk Posts: 6
    I have some interesting ( i hope ) observations. I think something wrong is with Mobil 1 0-40 here in Poland. While watching closely 4l bottle which i recently bought i figured out that this oil lost VW 503.01 approval !!
    Now it is only 502/505. Is it the same oil as a year ago ??
    So i filled my new VW Passat 1.8 TSI with Mobil1 ESP 5-30. And I was dissapointed. Car is slightly louder and not as smooth as on original VW oil. After 1000 km i change oil again and now i am using Motul 8100 x-lite ester 0-30. After starting engine i can "feel" completely different oil. Car is again smooth, quiet and while cold outside, hydraulic valves are "full" and quiet A LOT quicker. And one more thing - engine warms up faster. Same temperature ( my home :) ) - from starting to 90 celcius water now 6.5 minutes, on Mobil 1 ESP 8.5 minutes. I am shocked !

    Somewhere i have read 504/507 (for example Mobil1 ESP) oils are good for catalysator and diesel engines, not for engine itself. Same story API SL/SM.
    SL=better wear protection.

    Now I believe this is true.

    ps. Sorry for my bad english. And Hi to everybody :)
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    I wrote a letter to VW last year asking about the very limited availability of 503.01 oil. In VW's response letter I was told that VW and Audi have both dropped the 503.01 oil specification and that 502.00 is now sufficient for all 503.01 applications.

    Regarding the difference that you noticed between the two oils, keep in mind that by definition, when compared to a 0W-30, all 5W-30 oils will be thicker and more resistant to flowing through your engine following a cold start. Nature of the beast. Were the oil grades reversed and you were comparing a Mobil 1 0W-30 to a Motul 5W-30, I would expect the Motul oil to exhibit the symptoms you described for the Mobil 1.

    As for the new(ish) 504.00/507.00, by all accounts they are both more expensive and superior to any 502.xx, 503.xx, 505.xx and 506.xx oil.

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • burtkburtk Posts: 6
    As for the new(ish) 504.00/507.00, by all accounts they are both more expensive and superior to any 502.xx, 503.xx, 505.xx and 506.xx oil.

    Thats not so obvious. These are "low saps" oils and as I wrote this is not always good for engine. On the other hand it is necessary for DPF filters in diesel engines. But we are talking about petrol. Look at the extremally low TBN number for all 504/507 oils (2 times lower than Full Saps oils ). And low HTHS which is not good for turbo, for sure.

    About 503.01 - why then other oils still have this on the bottles ? Why it is still in my friends new 2009 Audi TT instuction ? And finally I am talking about differences in engine running also when hot. I dont know how this is possible, but i feel smaller turbo lag

    Hours of studying Internet makes me feel 504/507 oils are good for ecology/emissions ( so is API SM) , not for engine wear protection

    And one more thing : Motul specific 504/507 is actually cheaper in Poland than Motul ester 8100 x-lite

    And more - dont You think this versality of 504/507 is suspicious ? Hard to believe theres a good oil for all types of engines.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Thats not so obvious. These are "low saps" oils and as I wrote this is not always good for engine. On the other hand it is necessary for DPF filters in diesel engines. But we are talking about petrol. Look at the extremally low TBN number for all 504/507 oils (2 times lower than Full Saps oils ). And low HTHS which is not good for turbo, for sure.

    TBN and HTHS are a very tricky measurements when it comes to low SAPS oils, however, that in no way means that the oil isn't significantly more capable than traditional Group IV and Group V oils. If anything, the low numbers are simply an indication that the traditionaly methods of oil analysis need to be updated, or a completely different battery of tests need to be created.

    About 503.01 - why then other oils still have this on the bottles ? Why it is still in my friends new 2009 Audi TT instuction ? And finally I am talking about differences in engine running also when hot. I dont know how this is possible, but i feel smaller turbo lag.

    To say that I'm highly surprised that 503.01 is specified for a 2009 Audi TT is beyond an understatement. Could you please post a picture from the Owner's Manual? FWIW, if you look at the published list of approved oils published by Audi you won't find even a single 503.01 oil, in fact, you won't even find a category for 503.01 oils. As a side note, I happen to have kept several of the published copies of VW/Audi approved oils and the latest one that has a 503.01 category dates back to 14-Oct-2003. I also have a document dated 19-Dec-2005 that contains the following quote:

    Changes to VW oil specificaitons

    To simplify the current coding
    VW 500 00, VW 501 00, VW 501 01, VW 502.00, VW 503.00, VW 503.01
    Will be covered by a new code VW 504.00

    VW 505 00, VW 505 01, VW 506 00 VW 506 01
    Will be covered by a new code VW 507.00

    Hours of studying Internet makes me feel 504/507 oils are good for ecology/emissions ( so is API SM) , not for engine wear protection.

    I've never seen any indication that 504/507 oils aren't good for engine protection. In fact, as I understand it, 504/507 oils are approved for even longer oil change intervals than any of the previous oils.

    And one more thing : Motul specific 504/507 is actually cheaper in Poland than Motul ester 8100 x-lite

    Interesting point.

    And more - dont You think this versality of 504/507 is suspicious ? Hard to believe theres a good oil for all types of engines.

    I'm not sure what that means. The VW/Audi 504.00 oil specification is for gasoline engines just as are the 502.xx and 503.xx standards, and 507.00 is a standard for diesel engines as are the 505.xx and 506.xx standards.

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • burtkburtk Posts: 6
    Lovely conversation :)
    I do not tell "i know everything";
    I am just asking questions.

    To the last point : every engine needs slightly different oil. Diesel runs slowly and hot and oil should be rather thick and strong - vide 505.01. On the other hand - there is no 503.01 oil ( even if it is historical name ) which is also 505.01. So, there must be differences. As I remember Motul x-lite ester isnt designed for diesel at all.
    You just cant love every person on Earth :)

    You wrote:
    I've never seen any indication that 504/507 oils aren't good for engine protection. In fact, as I understand it, 504/507 oils are approved for even longer oil change intervals than any of the previous oils.
    I am sure longer oil interval does not equal better protection. Thats a pure marketing. Search Internet, ask guys at service - You will find one big VW, Toyota and others "sludge problem". Here in Poland we just cant buy any VW with longlife service !
    Look at professional racing oils - best of all, but only when You change after for example 3000 -5000 max.

    You wrote:
    TBN and HTHS are a very tricky measurements when it comes to low SAPS oils, however, that in no way means that the oil isn't significantly more capable than traditional Group IV and Group V oils. If anything, the low numbers are simply an indication that the traditionaly methods of oil analysis need to be updated, or a completely different battery of tests need to be created.

    TBN - I dont know, You may be right. But HTHS is viscosity at 150 celcius and for me ( and I think my turbo) - the higher the better.
    I have information from "first hand" that low saps, low HTHS, "emission protection system" oils just kill dozens of Renault Laguna Turbos in Europe. Turbos dies in Laguna sometimes even after 10.000 miles when using that oil ! Mechanics say "unoficially" : change your recommended oil as fast as you can or you will have to change Turbo soon. People who changed oil to at least mid saps or oil with high HTHS dont seem to have this problem.
    By the way - low saps oils are Group IV only. 504/507 is not any miracle. To my knowledge Group V oils are only ester oils produced by Motul and Amsoil.
    Believe me, these V Group oils feels different. There is some magnetic interaction between oil and engine - it is even hard to check oil level. It needs even a day or two to stabilize for reading level. After stopping, it is still in the engine.
    I will say it again: none of "low saps" is group V oil.

    And finally : i asked Mobil about erasing 503.01. They did not answered. I asked a question before and answer was on my e-mail next day. Strange, isnt it ?
    By the way I have read rumours about slipping Mobil 1 0-40 into III Group... Maybe even on this forum.

    About photo - i will try.

    best regards
    Burt
  • kurtamaxxxguykurtamaxxxguy Posts: 1,715
    Perhaps this thread may help explain things:

    http://www.auto-rx.com/pages/how-auto-rx-works.html

    (((no, I'm not promoting this!!! It's for info purposes only)))

    The chemist describing it explains it's esters that make the oil more "polar" and more attractable to the metal.

    A number of corrosion removal products (Corrosion X) work the same way.
  • burtkburtk Posts: 6
    Something more about oil prices : as I sad, in Poland, and I suppose in other EU countries, 504/507 are now cheap oils. For example Castrol Edge 5-30 I can buy on every Supermarket and sometimes it is cheapest oil ( of course we are talking about good syntetic oils )
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,795
    While it is good to have different market (Euro/US/etc) perspectives on "common products," it is obvious to most folks there are chasms and many chasms that might be improbable to impossible to cross across markets.

    So for example, Mobil One & Edge products are available in 5 qt (4.73 L) containers at WalMart. (WalMart as most US folks know are located from almost the MOST rural, to the most urban) Current prices are 26/41 USD respectively. This would come out to be 5.20/8.20. per qt (32 oz). USD. I would submit even though commonly available, it is too rich/pricey for the general car care customers who shops there.

    Now if you are looking for VW 504/507 specification products, right now they are available only at the most specialized of specialty vendors. So at the VW parts counter Castrol LLX (gold bottle) VW 504/507 is app $7.00 per L (33.8 oz)

    I also understand through a quirk or coincidence, a Mobil One product VW 504/507 (# 68001334 A A, # 68001334 A B) can be had at Dodge parts counters.
  • burtkburtk Posts: 6
    As I sad before : it is highly possible, that SM (aka 504/507 ) oils are inferior to engine protection.

    I found this: http://myg37.com/forums/engine-drivetrain-and-forced-induction/188842-ester-oil-- 4.html

    "Mark,
    Thanks for the email and congrats on the new Infinity G37.
    I show that the OEM is recommending the use of an SAE 5W30 viscosity oil meeting the recent API SM Service Classification.
    Royal Purple recommends the use of the RP 5W30 Motor Oil.

    The API SM Service Classification has reduced the amount of performance antiwear engine oil additives - capping them at 800 ppm with the theory that reducing the amount will prolong the life of the catalytic converter.
    RP has chosen to continue to make the more robust API SL version as it contains 25% more of the antiwear additive to better protect the engine components. In three years using the SL in engines recommending the SM - we have not had a single claim for damage to a catalytic converter - with some now totally over 300,000 miles on the vehicles. We fell so strongly about this - we offer a corporate warranty. "

    Royal Purple Inc
    David Canitz
    1 Royal Purple Lane
    Porter, TX 77365
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,795
    Anymore it is about (specific) specifications !!?? It is a gim me, if the (one) oil can kill multiple birds with one stone (so to speak). I am constantly on the hunt for the magic "all in one elixir" (aka cut down bench stock) I have it down to 4 each Mobil One's categories with 2 each sub categories (viscosity differences) : 1. 0w20,5w20, 2. 5w30, 0w30, 3. Mobil One 5w40 Truck and SUV, Delvac One 5w40 and 4. Total Quartz INEO 5w30 VW 504/507.

    To select an SL/SM for a diesel specification (VW 504/507) just because it happens to meet the SL/SM, would not be what I would do. I would select the oil that meets the 504/507 specification and if they happen to coincide with either SL/SM, then yes, so much the better. I do have oils which meet the diesel engine specifications, that I would use in place of 0w30, 5w30 Mobil in a heartbeat, but I would NOT put 0w20,5w20, 0w20, 5w30 Mobil One in the diesel applications !!! In any case after the meager warranties, you are providing self warranty/ies anyway.

    While you might not care too much about this, the 5w40 in the diesel application seems to show 40% less wear (than the comparable (specific) specification) 5w30 viscosity. How that would apply in a Infinity G37, (5w30) I can only surmise. If it were so in the G37 application 5w40 would probably cause you a slight MPG loss.
  • wtd44wtd44 Posts: 1,211
    I bought the 5 quart jug of Quaker State Q synthetic at an "introductory" price, and sent in for the rebate. If I should use it in a 6 quart crank case, I might elect to mix the 5 quarts with 1 quart of Mobil 1. I solicit commentary!
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,795
    They are should be compatible across which ever common specification/s. So for example if Mobil One is an SL and the QS Q synthetic is SL then...
    However from a VOA/UOA point of view, you would not get so called "pure" analysis.
  • wtd44wtd44 Posts: 1,211
    What I didn't state was the underlying reason; that being my disinterest in paying nearly $6 for a make-up quart of Q synthetic. What is your off hand opinion of using the 5 quarts of Q with 1 quart of mineral motor oil? Would you risk running that combo for, say 10K in a V8 Mercury Mountaineer with out an analysis?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,795
    When I first read your response, I thought I had misread your first posting on the subject. But indeed, mineral oil is just another option. The straight up answer, again compatible.(SL to SL for example) . Would I risk running the combo? It is not a risk. While I have done it in the past, I would not do it, as I do not want the 2 or more chemistries to be @ odds with one another.
  • wtd44wtd44 Posts: 1,211
    At this time, I do not have an out-of-warranty vehicle with a crankcase capacity of 5 or less quarts. I do have a 5 quart jug of the "Q" synthetic and 2 vehicles that are past warranty with 6 quart crankcases. I suppose the best plan is to buy the extra quart at full price, but on the other hand, I recall that all the current synthetics claim to be compatible with mineral oils. I am wondering if using a quart of mineral oil (e.g. Chevron) with the 5 quarts of "Q" will degrade the longevity of the "Q" to the point that running the combination for 10K miles in a 6 quart crankcase is risky. I suspect it would work just fine, but I am not a petroleum engineer! :shades:
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,795
    Since they started years ago coming out with (4 qt) 1 gal and 5 qt containers, I have been a fan. It seems packaged that way, it is usually cheaper per qt. There are also usually less items to recycle.

    The real benefit to me is since I have crankcases that range from a full 4 L to 7 qts, it is much easier just to pour a whole container than multiple smaller ones.
  • wtd44wtd44 Posts: 1,211
    Titrating the final volume from a large container is the only hassle, really.
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,386
    Discuss... ;)

    image

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,795
    Because you have a (gasser) turbo, I would be almost intensely curious as what would be the comparison/contrast (numbers) with Mobil One Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40, with your already excellent numbers .

    link title

    The list of standards it complies with is pretty varied.

    link title

    I have been using Mobil One 5w30 for a lot of years (22 years) and miles (745,000), and with 15,000 to more recently 20,000 miles OCI's.

    I have been using Mobil One 5w40, ( lots of AKA's) for fewer years(6) and miles (118,000) and 20,000 to 25,000 miles OCI's.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,795
    I went over my post and probably should have more clearly stated why the comparison / contrast between Mobil One's: 5w30 vs Turbo Diesel 5w40.

    Upshot: Other UOA's in turbo applications showed app 40 % better (lesser) wear with the Mobil One 5W40 ESP/CJ-4 5w40 Turbo Diesel formulations. To add further complexity, Mobil One also has the ESP 5w30 VW 504/507 application: which is long life compatible with VW (obviously) BMW, MB and Porsche turbo applications.... In addition, not that Either and/or BOTH 5w30's can not handle turbos applications (if indeed the oem calls for it) but as the part of the name implies: it is designed for ... turbos.
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