Synthetic motor oil

ruking1

#3851

Yes, I read in a spec sheet somewhere that the life for SL conventional oil is 12,000 miles. Naturally, the oil companies will tell you to follow the manufacturer's recommendations. The manufacturer on one of my cars (Corvette) says on the old SJ ratings, that my oil change interval (synthetics are specified under a GM spec)is good to go for up to 15,000 miles and or one yr. This is as you probably notice, a higher performance machine. Keep in mind also that synthetics now also meet the SL rating. So for the 2003 Corvette, it remains to be seen if the GM folks will recommend a longer than 15,000 mile drain interval with the new SL standard.

So no, I am not poo pooing the parameters at all. What I am saying is that given a healthy engine, his oil analysis results will probably show huge amounts of useful life left. If he is a normal driver, app 50% left.

So let me use a financial analogy: if you want to give me a dollar for EVERY 50 cents I give you, I will take that action 24/7 !

bottgers

Frule

The only person in here, to my knowledge anyway, who has claimed that Chevron's SL is as good as the syns is Fleetwoodsimca. Actually, I think his claim was that the Chevron SL IS synthetic. Whether it is or isn't really syn, I haven't seen any evidence that it's as good as any of the syns, unless of course you choose to believe Chevron's claims. And what company isn't going to claim that their product is the best, or just as good as the more expensive ones?

Yes I did say syns are superior to dyno. They are. I haven't seen any evidence that shows they aren't superior.

Fleetwoodsimca

So you say I won't believe anything just because I don't buy into Chevron's claims that their product is all that? If I believe every company's claims, then I could buy ANY product and have the best available. When I see some non biased facts and/or results for Chevron's SL, I'll believe. Right now, it's still new and hasn't been proven.

bluedevils

Why do you think people were skeptical about syn when it first came out? Because it was new and unproven. Why should things be any different for Chevron's SL? I afraid I'm going to have to have more than just Chevron's claims.

yurakm

My wife and I have two relatively recent cars, 98 Malibu and 2000 Regal. The both car manuals call for 3000 mile oil change for "severe" driving conditions. The definition of severe conditions includes short trips (less than 10 miles) and stop-and-go driving in city.

We used to live in 5.5 miles from work, 7.5 miles commute one way after moving. Daily commute through city with traffic lights every 200 feet or so, and our old "inner" suburb not much different from city.

To play safe, we considered our driving pattern to be severe, requiring oil change every 3000 miles.

However, the Buick have an oil monitor. Turned to be, that in reality we need changing oil less often, at about 6000 miles.

Since buying Regal, we are seldom using Malibu for longer trips. However, otherwise the driving pattern is the same for the both cars. Due to the monitor I feel safe now to change the Malibu oil once in 6 months. This is about 4,000 mostly city miles in winter; up to 6,000 miles in summer, with much higher share of highway miles.

Without the monitor changing oil every 3,000 presumably "severe" miles is what doctor prescribed. However, very few cars are equipped by the gizmo.

wtd

Our 98 Pontiac Grand Prix has the oil life monitor and I used to go by it. The longest I went on an oil change using it, was 7400 miles and the monitor said I still had 3% life left. I use 10W-30 Mobil 1 in this car.

Ever since getting oil analysis results back on my 98 chevy truck which showed that the viscosity was out of range with only 5,000 miles on the Mobil 1, I quit using the monitor on the car and have gone back to 3,000 mile changes for now. I have yet to do an analysis on the car but may do one on this next change.

I still see many people on this site blindly believing the marketing hype about how good synthetics are without doing testing on their particular vehicle. The 5,000 mile oil in my truck was still golden brown and I never would have thought that the viscosity would be out of range or that I would be showing excessive wear metals on some elements. The oil looked like it could go a couple more thousand miles at least. The engine in this truck is a V-8 which has never been over 2500 rpms since new. You would assume that the oil had not been overly stressed in this vehicle.

As for oil change recommendations by the manufacturor, don't think for a minute that they have your best interest in mind. Just because they are recommending 7500 miles or above, doesn't mean this is the best inverval to make your engine last the longest. Most engines today are higher reving, run hotter and are harder on engine oil than ever before. Sure, oil quality has gotten better over the years, but I don't think its that much better.

adc100

I believe you are putting too much stock in whether the oil costs $1.17 or $4.59 a quart. We have had this discussion many times. I believe most people on this board use syn in spite of the higher costs (of the oil) and not because it could save money in oil changes. They feel that considering the very high prices of their vehicles that skimping on oil quality is "penny wise and pount foolish". They (myself included) are also looking for the extra margin of lubricating reserve when bad things happen.

wtd As I said before its quite possible that the lab erored in your viscosity measurement. I would probably feel the same as you-but I have seen at least half a dozen oil analysis reports where the viscosity of the Mobil 1 has been right on after over 6K miles. (mine was)

tntitan

in my opinion. Ruking1 disses me for stretching to a 6,000 drain interval saying that 7,500 is the recommended interval to start with. My manual says 3,750 for severe driving conditions. My office is only 4 miles from home and the temperature in Nashville is in the 90's at least 4 months of the year. In my book that qualifies as severe driving conditions.

I am not basing my decision entirely on cost. However, my oil changes for 4.5 quarts of the Chevron SL 10W-30 and a Supertech filter are less than $7. If ruking1 wants to compare costs per mile then have at it. I also believe that the Chevron SL may contain just as much "synthetic oil" as others on the shelves costing much more.

The bottom line is I am going to try the "extended" drain of 6K and see what turns up in the analysis. If I like the results I might go longer. The problem as I see it is that at only $4.50 for the oil and $2.00 for the filter is there really a reason to not change. If I change the filter I am definitely going to change the oil at these prices.

I don't mind throwing away some money on oil analysis for my specific vehicles because their cost is nothing compared to my engines and I am not about to believe anyone on this site or any oil company claim about the useful life of oil on MY vehicle without testing on MY oil. All the lab tests on the worldwide web don't mean [non-permissible content removed] to MY car. I am fairly certain that my little Honda would run 25K drain intervals and get 100K or maybe even 200K miles on the engine but I am just not willing to go that route.

I am just old fashioned. I think everyone should invest regularly to provide for retirement, have life and disability insurance, excercise and eat right, and change their frikking fluids in their car.

malachy72

on cost, I was responding to ruking point. But that does not mean cost is not a factor. What one speaks of when talking about such matters is value or marginal utility. If one wants to pay 4x the price for a marginal, if any under common use,increase in protection, do so. I don't eat at expensive restaurants either, with a captain and fine wine list. But hey, that's just me.

frule

I agree with you.I'd venture to guess that "real" synthetic(whatever that is) proponents will disagree.

But once more,how many engine failures do we see due to the oil? I wonder if these folks have syn.tranny fluid,syn.axle fluids,syn. greases,lube for the water pump,etc?The point being that there are many other EXPENSIVE systems that are more likely to fail(early or late in a vehicle's life).

How many of you guys hae had a major engine failure due to your oil?Not me.I have had transmissions fail,axles fail(price a 4x4 locker rear-end),radiator problems,etc.But most pay less attention to these systems than to the one that you can treat poorly!

Oil is cheap and I can change it every 4,000 and rest easy.The insurance analogy is appropriate regarding intervals.

ruking1

#3857

First of all dissing you was the last thing on my mind. If you wish to persist in that thought ,it is not of my doing. The second thing is that I had a truck with app 250,000 miles with app 17 oil changes, 15000 mile intervals. This was a 1987 TLC. My total unscheduled maintenance sold in 2001 was app 2500 dollars. Not only was this used as a daily delivery driver (just as bad if not worse than a New York taxicab) it also went off road and into the mountains for winter spring summer and fall mountain sports. So not only did I get superior lubrication but during that time I went to oil change 17 times as opposed to 84 times. At the time I had 5 cars so you can imagine the time effort and money I saved.

#3859

I have had no engine failure! Nor any of the failures to which you speak!

bigorange30

The point is that for synthetic oils, the manufacturers say that you should use the normal driving drain interval even if you are driving under severe conditions. Therefore, if your draining at 6000 miles, your manual says 7500 miles for normal driving and you are driving under severe conditions, then you are not going long enough. There is some safety factor built in and if 7500 is recommended then at 6000 you are not even coming close.

bigorange30

Others have posted here in the past that you can get higher gas mileage with synthetics. I didn't notice it for the first 4-5 tank fulls (~1000 miles) after changing to Mobil1 but then I did started to get 1.5-2 more mpg. Is it normal to see that delay when switching from dino to synthetic or will that happen on every oil change? If it holds true, it will save me $72.56/oil change in gas at $1.40/gallon for the premium I use. With double drain interval making up for twice the oil cost, that is all profit for me. Then you get the improved engine longevity to boot.

fleetwoodsimca

The added value of increased gas mileage was one of the big selling factors hawked by the manufacturers of synthetics 20 years ago. The ester formula people claimed that the esters were the foundation of the better mileage, as I recall. In fact, the ester brands WERE the synthetic market back then. The phony-baloney came a little later. >;^]

bottgers

Be careful there bigorange30. You just left yourself wide open for a thrashing by the dino/Chevron SL supporters. They're probably going to claim that you can obtain the same benefits (improved fuel economy, and engine longevity) from one of the $1 a quart oils. Haven't you been reading the posts lately? There isn't any difference between synthetics and dinos anymore.

ruking1

#3862

I actually get about 1-2 mpg better with synthetic vs conventional oil, same viscosity.

I also experienced smoother shifting in a 6 speed manual and smoother feeling drive train. I also got a higher temperature tolerance, switching to a synthetic ATF from a conventional ATF and got almost 1 mpg better. I also changed out a rear differential gear oil(75w-90) which probably was a synthetic, so I didnt necessarily pick up any gas mileage

#3864

Actually the courts have ruled that you can call hydro cracked oils synthetic. And the truth is they probably argued (successfully) that hydrocracked oils dont exist naturally, thereby meeting the generic definition of synthetic.

So yes, to get real synthetic, don't get the ones that use hydrocracked oils! i.e., Castrol is called synthetic but is hydro cracked.

Right now practically ,you can select from Mobil One, Amsoil, Redline, to name a few and illustrate the point.

mrdetailer

Another possibility would be to purchase a PureOne, or MobilOne higher capacity filter. They are not the cheapest, but would give you a true test of the oil's life at 6,000 miles. I know that MobilOne goes down to 2 microns so keeping it on a little longer shouldn't harm anything.

ruking1

#3866

Yes those two brands plus ones made by Champion Labs have been the filters of choice for a lot of the Corvette enthusiasts. I myself use the OEM AC Delco brand.

bigorange30

If Chevron SL is as good as synthetic, then why is he afraid to take it as far as synthetics gaurantee they can go (normal driving change interval even if driving severe). I will put the Mobil1 up against that SL any day.

bottgers

I was being sarcastic. I think syns are superior as well, but just the second someone posts a statement like that, someone else refutes it by say saying something like not all syns are superior, or some of the dinos are actually syns, or there's no difference between the 2 types of oil, etc. What I want to know is, if there's no difference, why doesn't everybody just use dino?

ruking1

#3868

This I think is where the rubber meets the road so to speak! And since synthetic oils are also SL rated, I think there is a real margin of doubt that the synthetic is at best way superior, at worst marginally superior to underperforming conventional SL oils, although to admit that on this thread can be a major loss of face. Me? If the Chevron conventional SL oil can do what synthetic can do, I will switch! The best case will be getting a superior lubricant at the same or commoditzed prices as other conventional oils. In the worst case, I save 3 bucks a quart over synthetic! What is not to like about that?

killakella123

You wouldn't have the word "synthetic" on the bottle making you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

ruking1

#3871

So if I take my sharpie and mark synthetic on the Chevron SL oil. I can charge 4 plus dollars a quart!? Actually the other way around would suit me.

bottgers

ruking1

You hit the nail on the head! If Chevron's SL can do what synthetics do, I'll buy it too. Problem is, it hasn't been around long enough to prove it can do anything. Synthetics have been around for over 20 years now, and are well proven.

killakella123

I couldn't give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] what it says on the bottle, if it works, it works!

killakella123

bottgers

There have actually been some serious statements in here, people actually saying that syn supporters think syn is superior just because it says syn on the bottle.

ruking1

Please don't get the feeling that in anyway I am "dissing" Chevron SL. Chevron SL is great stuff! By virtue of the SL standard however I am totally at comfort buying on price, i.e., the cheaper the better given the SL rating. As folks have noted on this thread, I am not as comfortable doing the same with the synthetic side for the stated reasons (hydro crack vs PAO) In addition the Corvette has a GM standard 4718M which happens to be met by Mobil One synthetic 0,5,10W-30 which incidently is what viscosity called for by my other trucks manufacturer.

tntitan

#3866 Mrdetailer I had considered going to higher capacity filter before deciding on the Walmart Supertech but figured (originally) why bother if I am changing every 4K. May reconsider when going to +6K.

#3867 ruking1 I am using a Champion filter - the Walmart Supertech is made by Champion.

#3868 bigorange30 "guarantee" pleeaassee. No one will ever be able to prove that any oil caused an engine failure to an oil company and have them replace an engine. Guarantee=naive.

#3869 bottgers stated my point exactly. If there is no difference then I choose to use the dino hydrocracked synthetic.

You can beat me up all you want but if I can get 200K+ troublefree miles from my Accord using a $2 filter and $4.50 oil every 4-6K miles then I fail to see any reason (other than the convenience of less actual oil changes which I don't mind doing) to go with 16-24K drain intervals with any oil costing 4 times as much (not including extra filter changes).

I truly believe that 200K troublefree miles will exceed all of my expectations and IMHO I have a higher comfort level with dino and a new filter at 4-6K achieving this goal than trying to go 20k on synthetic and changing filters every 10K. Obviously I am in the minority but thats ok by me.

However, I will post my oil analysis results in a few months and then you can pick them apart and tell what a dumbass I am. I may even agree with you. That is why I am willing to give this a shot. Just be patient with me until then and maybe we all take something away from this "real world" experience. Peace to all!

ruking1

reference #3876

in reply to #3877

"You can beat me up all you want but if I can get 200K+ trouble free miles from my Accord using a $2 filter and $4.50 oil every 4-6K miles then I fail to see any reason (other than the convenience of less actual oil changes which I don't mind doing) to go with 16-24K drain intervals with any oil costing 4 times as much (not including extra filter changes).

I truly believe that 200K trouble free miles will exceed all of my expectations and IMHO I have a higher comfort level with dino and a new filter at 4-6K achieveing this goal than trying to go 20k on synthetic and changing filters every 10K. Obviously I am in the minority but thats ok by me."

You will absolutely positively get no argument from me at all about this very operative statement. My goal is pretty much the same, only I want the flexibility of comfort level AT 15k oil change level with up to 16k-24 oil change level with NOT A HINT of sludge and MINIMUM engine wear AT 200-300k miles! Synthetic oil has less ash % so as it "evaporates" if leaves almost no residual behind. The truth is that if you use conventional oil and it does sludge, you can commission the Borsch system hot chemical engine cleaner procedure and for 200 bucks it roto routes the sludge.

frule

"I've read several oil filter tests, and they all said Mobil and Purolator make the best filters. None of them have said Wix and/or Champions were as good".

FWIW,bottgers,Champion MAKES Mobil-1 filters!

"Those who use $.95 oil and $3 filters are just asking for trouble. You might as well take the money you're saving by buying the cheap stuff, and put it away for for that certain premature engine, or car replacment".

It will be my FIRST engine failure!

" Mobil's and Purolator's filters are the best, even better than OEM".

bottgers,Who makes OEM filters?It's companies like Champion,Wix,Hastings,Fram,Purolator,etc.These OEM filters are not made by GM,Ford,Honda,etc

"As with oil, you get what you pay for with oil filters. $3 filters are not equal to, or superior to $10 filters. There isn't a $3 filter on the market that will compare to Mobil's or Purolator's filters".

Whatever......I'm glad I don't have to defend all these pragmatic statements!

bluedevils

"bottgersisms." That is hilarious.

bluedevils

You continue to amaze me with your skepticism and condescending attitude.

1. So you believe the claims of other companies, but you choose not to believe the claims of Chevron re: its Supreme? Chevron is not claiming this stuff kicks the crap out of synthetics. They're just saying it's good stuff and is made with group II+ base stocks. Chevron has its own line of 'fully synthetic' oil anyway.

2. "What I want to know is, if there's no difference, why doesn't everybody just use dino?" Most people do. Only a select few actually spend more for synthetic oil, or even CONSIDER doing so. It's called 'marketing.' The companies try to convince people such as those on this forum that synthetic is better, and that it's worth the extra money. And some people are willing to do just that. I am not slamming that group of consumers, because I am currently among that group. However, I am willing to challenge the status quo and listen to information and think about whether what I believe (that synthetic oil was significantly better, and therefore worth the extra money) really is true. You aren't.

bluedevils

Marginal utility! It's great to hear someone use this term. It's been years since my last economics course. The law of diminishing marginal utility is a great notion. I think most synthetic proponents don't really subscribe to that theory.

bluedevils

"The point is that for synthetic oils, the manufacturers say that you should use the normal driving drain interval even if you are driving under severe conditions." You also said something about the oil companies 'guaranteeing' this.

This doesn't mean it's not true, but Amsoil notwithstanding, that is news to me. I don't remember anybody saying that on the Edmunds oil discussions, except regarding the Amsoil guarantee, which even armtdm acknowledges probably isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

adc100

The companies try to convince people such as those on this forum that synthetic is better, and that it's worth the extra money. And some people are willing to do just that. I think that the overwhelming number of people buy things (including Valvoline SL) based on marketing. I do that less and less as I get older. I like to think that I have researched the benefits of synthetics in my former job. And I feel that the 30 bucks I paid for 3 Technical papers from the SAE which published Mobil's 1995 Syn oil, the 1998 TriSyn and Delvac 5W-40 are much more revealing than anecdotal evedence or marketing hype.

Having said all of that though I have outgrown (I'm 56) the days of crawling under a vehicle every 3 or 4K. I really have trouble comprehending how someone can say they "enjoy" changing oil.

ruking1

Just the savings in parts for the DIY er is app 34% in favor of synthetic, BUT:

The other thing is that when you say change oil at a lubrication place the cost becomes even higher! Suppose I change oil every 5k and the dealer charges 33 bucks a time x5= 165.

He will charge me 19 if I bring my own synthetic oil and filter. So for 15 k miles the charge is 19 plus 28 dollars =47.

Say I bring my own Chevron oil and filter 9 dollars plus 19=27 dollarsx 3= 81.

Which is cheaper and by what %'s ?

zr2rando

I guess your wife doesn't catch you out in the garage under the truck, legs crossed, hands crossed over your stomach...snoring....while the oil is dripping into the pan huh?....or maybe she did catch you!!!!
I am 42, do all of mine myself too, it's not so bad,,,,,,
yes dear, I'll be back in there in about half an hour!!!!
ain't it cool!
see ya

bigorange30

to go to the normal driving interval drain even if driving in severe conditions. I have it in writing.

wtd

I was at walmart today and saw they had the 5 qrt jugs of Mobil 1 for $17.88. I noticed that the front and back label said it was the new supersyn formula. I then notice that the API designation is still SJ and not SL. I looked at about 5 jugs and they all said SJ on them. I thought that all of the new supersyn was SL. Anyone know anything about this?

Wayne

bluedevils

That's strange. I thought I remembered the SL designation on the 1-quart bottles of Mobil w/SuperSyn that I've seen on the shelves, but I could be wrong.

bluedevils

Thanks for the detail on the Mobil 1. Is that info on the bottle, or is it a little harder to come by? I don't feel like going out to the garage to check...

bluedevils

What can I say? Yes, I do enjoy changing the oil. I'm not ashamed of that. It makes me feel good to know I am a piece of vehicle maintenance myself rather than farming out the job. Plus I get to take a look at the underside of the vehicle, which doesn't hurt either. I'm not mechanically inclined, so these sorts of tasks are personal accomplishments for me.

If you don't enjoy changing your own oil, then why do you do it? Is it to save money?

ruking1

#3888

Seems like they are moving the older SJ designation stock out! The new SL stock hit the market not two months ago so it is in transition.

upallnight

Here is some interesting reading. Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to what the unnamed brand of oil was in the commercial? I wonder if the formulation was changed to correct this problem since 1999.

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/columns/1999/November/199911_column_patri.xml

bigorange30

I called the 1-800 # and they told me there. Then I emailed them and asked for it in writing.

http://www.mobil1.com/index.jsp

I don't think its on the bottle.

bottgers

The oil companies don't have to try to convince people that syn is better. For over the last 20 years, syn has proven itself to be superior. I don't pay any attention to marketing, but rather results. Results speak for themselves.

bluedevils

How many 'results' do you have for the WalMart SuperTech full synthetic oil?

Also, how many lab tests have you seen involving SL oils and/or comparisons with 'synthetic' oils?

bluedevils

How much do 10-20 year old test results mean to you? Do you really think the conclusions that can be drawn from tests on oils of yesteryear are applicable to today's formulations? I don't.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think synthetic oil has changed a fair amount in the past 20 years. Yes, I think I heard that somewhere.

adc100

They screwed up tyhe labeling. There was a period of time when they had SL and not labled "Supersyn." Who knows ??The bottle people can't keep up with the changes. Check the color if its darker, u have the "Supersyn."- I guess.

bluedevils I change it because I am a fanatic when it comes to cleanliness. I don't want dirt in the filter or have the oil poured through a dirty funnel. I learned when I was a maintenance foreman that dirt accounts for at least half of bearing failures. I also don't want the plug stripped.

zr2randoAfter being married for 34 year, she could care less what I am up to- She's more or less given up...he-he. And actually at the age of 42, I probably did enjoy changing oil-don't know what was wrong with me., You'll see!!

bottgers

In answer to your questions. None, none, not a lot, no. Yes syns have changed in the last 20 years, they've gotten a lot better. Don't tell me you buy into that theory that syns have gotten worse.

It's a known fact that all store brand oils are produced by brand name companies. As far as I know, all of the brand name syns have been tested, and though some are better than others, they're all very good products. This is why I use SuperTech syn.

jsleesi

Hi WTD,

I also bought 5 qts of Mobile1 Super Syn from Wal-Mart at $17.88.

After I read your comments on Mobile1 Super Syn it does not indicate SL back of lable.

I checked my 1 qt bottle I used last oil change and the 5 qts bottle still have not used.

Back of lable says: " Exceeds ILSAC GF3 and API
Service SL, SJ/CF Warranty.

It does say SL on my 5 qts bottle. I don't know
why yours doesn't.

Good Luck to you, you better check it again.

JSLeesi

yurakm

provides info on extended drain intervals s in FAQ section, questions7: "Can I go longer without changing my oil if I use a synthetic?"

http://www.mobil1.com/why/faq.jsp#faq7

Pesonally, I have impression that the answer is ambiguous. Either my limited English, or more probably, it really is ambiguous.