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'69 GTX and '66 Satellite converts - record prices?

parmparm Posts: 723
edited March 9 in Plymouth
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300145154171&- - ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=020

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300141437353&- - ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=020

These cars were recently on ebay - and, in the case of the '69 has been relisted. These cars look beautiful to be sure. But, don't the asking prices seem "a tad" high to anyone else? These cars aren't 4-speed hemis and Elvis didn't sweat on them. Yes, I know they're in great condition and I know restoration work isn't cheap. I used to think prices like this were obscene, but nothing surprises me anymore.

What do you guys think about these asking prices?
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Comments

  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,007
    I'm a bit confused about the engine on that '66 Satellite. I was under the impression that the 361 was pretty much just a 2-bbl dog-motor from 1963 onward? The 1958-60 361 was pretty powerful and offered in a wide variety of configurations, but then a wussy 265 hp 2-bbl version came out for 1961. Dodge offered hi-output versions in '61-62, but after that I though they moved on to bigger and better things, concentrating on high-output 383's, 413's, 426'es, and finally, the Hemi and 440?

    I have no idea on fair pricing. They both seem high to me, but you never know. Espcially with '68-70 Mopar musclecars, which seem to be pretty "in" right now. That '66 Satellite is a brick in comparison. I dunno how popular they are.

    Consumer Reports tested a '69 Roadrunner with the 375 hp 440. They hated it with a passion, so you KNOW it has to be good! :P
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,050
    Well the '69 GTX has Galen Govier certification, which is quite important to the collector, but I'd say the car is overprice by $15K or $20K. I think fair market of $55,000--$60,000 is about enough, even as nice as it is. He might get the first bid of $67,000 from some feverish soul who had the exact car in the exact color as a young man (the emotional factor), but if someone pays his "buy it now", that person is going to be eating a loss for a few years at least, and would remain ahead of the market.

    Calling it a "distinguished" motor car made me laugh out loud, since it's really just a taxi cab with two doors and a roof that goes down.

    The '66 Satellite seems overpriced by about $8K to $10K. Again, calling it "undervalued" made me laugh. Well, gee, not once YOU buy it---LOL!

    The seller is "pushing the market" and trying to get some hysteria going, as if the muscle car market will just keep going up and up forever. He might get away with it on the GTX but he won't on the Satellite, (I'd be very surprised) especially with the 361 engine. Were it a 383/ 325HP / 4-speed, he could breach $30K on it.

    Of course, the very VERY best cars will hold value longer, even in a market drop; also, having a 4-speed and a Hemi engine makes a lot of difference in pricing these cars.

    Galen Govier, by the way, is the alleged recognized expert in authentication. He flies around the country and spends a lot of time evaluating each car. He charges a couple thousand bucks per car, goes over them very carefully, and his certificate is worth a lot in terms of assuring the buyer. So one has to factor his certificate as worth thousands of dollars in itself, over and above an unauthenticated car. Personally, I find his occupation risky.

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  • parmparm Posts: 723
    http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/7/9/89548479.htm

    With an asking price of $58K, this one is certainly more in line with Mr. Shiftright's market observations. Perhaps this one isn't quite as nice as the green one, but it looks plenty nice for me.

    I don't know enough about Mopar products to even be dangerous. However, I thought the motor on that that '66 Satellite had to be at least a 383 before it earned the "Commando" moniker.

    On Sunday, I'm going to the big Kruse auction in Auburn, IN. You'll know if I see one of these beauties if the headline in your local paper on Monday reads, "Man Drools To Death".
    ;)
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,007
    I don't know enough about Mopar products to even be dangerous. However, I thought the motor on that that '66 Satellite had to be at least a 383 before it earned the "Commando" moniker.


    Don't worry Parm, I don't exactly have it all memorized either, and have to refer to my old car book regularly. :P

    Anyway, as far as big-block engine go, here's what it lists for the 1966 lineup...

    361-2bbl: 265 hp, optional in the Belvedere/Satellite (next step up from the 318 I guess)
    383: 325 hp. 4-bbl, I'm guessing, as a 2-bbl would probably have more like 290-305 hp. Optional in the midsized and full-sized cars
    426: The Hemi, 425 hp. Optional, supposedly, in any Belvedere/Satellite except for the wagon. Did any of these actually end up in 4-door sedans, though? :confuse:
    440: 365 hp. Most likely a 4-bbl, as I think the multiple carbs were more like 390. Optional on full-sized cars, but not on midsized cars this year. In my book, the GTX first shows up as a 1967 model, and that's when the 440 was first offered in the midsize, standard on the GTX, but not available in any other midsizes. Guess they were trying to force you into the Hemi? Or seduce you into a Coronet R/T (where it was standard) or Charger (optional)?
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    "Personally, I find his (Galen Govier's) occupation risky." Yes! But, what a way to make a living.
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    OK. Picky, picky. Is it me? Or, is the driver's seat on this "like new" car seem out of step with the passenger seat - or vise versa. While I suppose it's possible, I'm guessing this car had zero adjust-ability in terms of the seat back angle.

    Photo 10 is taken from behind the car, yet only the passenger seat can be seen. In that, the driver's seat sits down too low to show up. Photo 31 confirms that the driver's seat back is angled back more - which, in all likelihood probably results in a more comfortable seating position.

    But, here's my point. This car seems to be so perfect in almost every other respect that it's rather mind blowing to me that the restorer would make such a glaring mistake. But, then again, Mopar's are not my forte at all. Perhaps this quirky seat thing is common to the breed?
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,007
    Y'know Parm, the more I look at those pics, the more things out-of-whack I'm finding, too. As for the seatbacks at different positions, I think what happened is that either the driver's seat has bent more from use, or perhaps someone pushed the passenger seatback forward and then when they went to put it back, it didn't latch all the way? In one or two of those pics, it looks like they're both at the same angle, such as photo 35. As far as I know, Mopar never offered reclining bucket seats back then, but I could be wrong.

    As for other things I'm finding? Well, the seat coverings in general don't look like they fit very well. It almost looks like someone put a new covering down over the old material. I know workmanship could be sloppy back then but c'mon, it wasn't THAT sloppy!

    Also, I'm sure its going to get points deducted for the speakers in the back seat (photo 36 and others). And it's missing a trim piece on the driver's door panel, as evidenced by the hole just behind the remote mirror adjust (photo 38). The vinyl door inserts also look a little ragged at the bottom, and the metal part of the door looks like it has signs of water leakage (also 38). Something about the steering wheel was bothering me too, and I couldn't quite place my finger on it. It just looked familiar, somehow. Then it hit me...that's the same steering wheel they used in a 1969 Dodge Dart GT! I guess it's possible, though unlikely, that Plymouth and Dodge would use the same steering wheel design, but I doubt if they'd use the same logo! (photo 31).

    I also just noticed that this car doesn't appear to have a tach. The GTX was supposed to be a top-of-the-line musclecar, and fairly well optioned. If you wanted a cheap stripper musclecar you got a Roadrunner, which eschewed such niceties as a tach, bucket seats, center console, extra interior lighting, all that ploodgrain trim, and cool rally wheels or even hubcaps, all in the favor of a low base price. As I recall, you could pay extra for a tach on the Roadrunner, and it was a little afterthought that they stuck on to the right of the temp gauge (you can see the empty spot in photo 31, a blank area with a big + through it). But I thought the GTX had a different instrument display, with two big round dials for the speedo and tach, and then four small ones for gas, oil, temp, and amps?

    Maybe that full-gauge display was extra cost even on the GTX in '69? Or it could have been the Dodge Coronet display I'm thinking of?
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,189
    Wow! Good eye! The next time I feel like buying an overpriced Mopar, I'm bringing you with me! That Dodge steering wheel is a glaring error. The speakers in the back would bother me as I really really hate aftermarket radios in classic cars. If I'm paying $67.5K for a Plymouth, EVERYTHING better be perfect.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,050
    True but think of the liabilities! What happens if ol' Galen says your Hemi 'Cuda is real and then you buy it for $150K, only to find out it is a very clever counterfeit and thus worth only $40,000 as a clone? So Galen gets sued for $110,000? Ouch!

    I suppose he could write disclaimers but if he's issuing a certificate of authenticity....er...how's that defense gonna hold up?

    Scares me.

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  • parmparm Posts: 723
    The red '69 GTX for sale (see earlier post) at $58K looks like a much better bargain - that is, if $58K can be considered a bargain. This red one appears to have the dash tach mentioned earlier. Plus, it has factory A/C which I suspect doesn't work anyway (they rarely do) and it would be a drag on the motor, but factory A/C seems to be the "gotta have" option to get maximum value - unless we're talk'n hemi.

    Regardless, I'd be proud to have either one in my garage. The only catch is that I'd first have to sell my house in order to afford the car. Catch 22!
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,007
    Plus, it has factory A/C which I suspect doesn't work anyway (they rarely do) and it would be a drag on the motor, but factory A/C seems to be the "gotta have" option to get maximum value - unless we're talk'n hemi.

    Maybe I was just lucky, but every old Mopar I had with the old-style "V-2" compressor, still worked. These included a '67 Newport, '68 Dart, and '69 Dart. Those things blew nice and cold, too!

    Now with the newer style compressor, that's cylinder shaped and more compact, I haven't been as lucky. I've had three 1979 Chryslers and none of them have worked. My '89 Gran Fury worked when I got the car in 1998, but it was losing its cooling power by the time I retired that thing in 2002. Might've just needed a charge, or it could have been something worse. My '88 LeBaron, which I gave to my ex-wife when we divorced, crapped out around 1997 I think. And even my 2000 Intrepid is starting to lose its cooling power. I first noticed it about a month ago.

    I wonder if it's hard to convert one of those old-style V-2 compressor a/c systems to R134A?
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,189
    The A/C compressor in my 1988 Buick Park Avenue finally crapped-out in mid-June. I was financially reckless and self-destructive enough to get it repaired @ $1,110. The car still uses the old R-12 stuff they were able to get a hold of.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,007
    I was financially reckless and self-destructive enough to get it repaired $1,110. The car still uses the old R-12 stuff they were able to get a hold of.

    Lemko, while it's true that you'd never get your money out of that repair if you tried to sell the car, it was probably still worth it, considering how much you drive that car, and if you plan on keeping it for awhile.

    Now if it were me, I would've just let it stay broken. But I'm also down to about 6,000 miles per year in driving, so I'm usually not in a car for that long, anyway. And as long as the windows roll down, I'm usually okay.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,189
    Shoot, my 1988 Buick Park Avenue might become my third good car if I get it painted. I just can't be seen in a beater. My plans for the Park Ave are to simply drive it 'til it dies - which looks a l-o-n-g way off as it's going. That or if its severely damaged in an accident. It's worthless as a used car unless I donate it to some charity.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,607
    Even then, now you only get to deduct what they sell it for, not 'blue book'. A friend of mine lucked out, donated a 15 year old beat up, hail dented Malibu before the rule change, deducted $2000 on a $500 car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,050
    Now why does everyone think R-12 is hard to get ahold of? A licensed shop can just order it up like they would a pizza. They still make R-12, they just don't sell it OTC to the common riff-raff like us.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,007
    Now why does everyone think R-12 is hard to get ahold of? A licensed shop can just order it up like they would a pizza. They still make R-12, they just don't sell it OTC to the common riff-raff like us.

    Well I think that's just it...we can't just walk into AutoZone and buy the stuff for a buck or two a can like our forefathers did. Sure, mechanics can still get it, I guess if you're licensed. Isn't the stuff something like 90 bucks a pound these days?
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,189
    Forefathers? Geeze, I feel old! I remember walking into Pep Boys and getting cans of R-12 for 99 cents!!! The stuff is like gold these days.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,607
    I think the price is going up because they're relying only on old stocks and recycling. I don't think they're making it now.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,050
    Well you could be right about that...I only know for sure that any licensed shop can order it up right away. Many have it right on hand. And yes, it is very expensive. But not as expensive as trying to convert.

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  • Is still being mfrd. in mexico and is quite the hot
    "import" being smuggled over the border !

    Thankfully I purchased 6 30 lb. canisters several years
    back for $99 bucks each before the US ban took effect.
    I have 2 bar/rest./motel operations (and cars too)with plenty of r-12 required equipment.
    Sure comes in handy and cheap too !
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,050
    No harm done if you evacuate the systems properly and don't let the R12 into the air. I'd check those Mexico supplies carefully. Sometimes they put propane in the tanks! (Oddly enough, it sorta works, but...gulp..)

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  • texasestexases Posts: 5,607
    Guess there's a few more years for Mexico:
    "However, the Montreal Protocol set two schedules for the phase out of ODS—1996 for developed countries and 2010 for developing countries—and unwittingly created a black market in the process. Automobile refrigerants like chlorofluorocarbon 12 (CFC-12), also known as R-12, went from a legal price of $4 per pound to a black market price of $30 a pound in the US."
  • Heck yea LP/propane gas is/can be used as a refrigerant
    (spl). RV fridges use it.............
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,607
    Well, they run on it, instead of electricity. I'm not sure what the 'working fluid' that does the cooling is.
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-Plymouth-Satellite-Convertible-s-Match-Resto- red_W0QQitemZ300172944204QQihZ020QQcategoryZ6415QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVie- wItem

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-PLYMOUTH-GTX-440-CONVERTIBLE-440-COMMANDO-EN- GINE_W0QQitemZ160180088284QQihZ006QQcategoryZ6412QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVi- ewItem

    The first link shows a restored '66 Plymouth Satellite convertible in what appears to be very good condition. The second link shows a very similar '66 Satellite, but as a GTX clone.

    Which would be the better car to have and are these asking prices any where close to their market value?
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    In doing some research, I'm find conflicting information as to whether the GTX option was even an available option in '66. Some sources show that the GTX option (before it was it's own model a few years later) didn't arrive until '67. Can anyone confirm this?

    More importantly, if the GTX option didn't exist until '67, what does that do to the value of the '66 GTX clone cited in the post above. Admittedly, a clone is a clone - meaning, it's obviously worth less than the real McCoy. But, when no real McCoy existed in the first place, how do you value something like this? What comps would you use?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,050
    You comp the '66 Clone GTX as a '66 Belvedere convertible in very nice condition with big block added. I'd think $20,000 is all the money for this car.

    Anyone who pays more is going to be the first to eat dirt when the muscle car market contracts, which it is already doing. It's gone stagnant, except for lots of cars being shipped overseas.

    The asking price for th '66 Satellite is laughable. It's not even listed in most muscle car price guides because it doesn't have a 383 or 426, which everyone wants. AND it's automatic. I'd say it's priced at LEAST $10,000---$12,000 over actual value. It's not even a car many people want and shouldn't be called a "muscle car" at all.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,007
    My old car book doesn't list a GTX at all for 1966. Now for 1967, it lists a Belvedere GTX, with a 375 hp 440 being the standard engine. The only optional engine was the 426 Hemi. For 1968, it was just called "GTX".

    I'm also not familiar with a high performance 361 for 1966, either. For the most part, the 361 never was a high-performance engine. The 1958-60 361-2bbls put out 295 hp, while the 4-bbl was usually good for 305-310. Most powerful 361 was what they offered in the 1958 DeSoto adventurer. Something like 345 with dual quads and 355 with fuel injection. For 1959 though, the 383 and 413 came onto the scene, and they were the main focus for performance. In fact, for 1961, the 361 got downgraded to 265 hp in 2-bbl form, although the 4-bbl stayed with 305-310. My book lists 1962 as the last year for the 361-4bbl, so I'm wondering if that '66 Satellite is just an original 2-bbl with a 4-bbl thrown on? 1966 was the 361's last year, and for 1967 it was replaced by a toned down version of the 383.
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    http://www.bestofshowautomotive.com/pages/Cars/131074/Pages/cars.html

    There may be a more beautiful '67 GTX on the planet, but I doubt it. Before it sold, this car was listed for $85,000 by a dealer in Ohio - though no idea what the eventual sale price was. The ad says that only 680 of these were built. I didn't realize so few were produced. That would help explain the astronomical asking price. Good Gawd, I think this car is absolutely gorgeous. Makes that red '66 GTX clone in St. Louis (with an asking price in the mid to high twenties) that is practically identical start to look like somewhat of a bargain.

    I've never been a huge Mopar fan, but I'm beginning to see the light. Oh, to be able to step back in time to 1967 and walk into a Dodge/Plymouth dealer with $20,000 in your pocket. You'd wind up with a car collection that would even make Craig Jackson jealous.
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