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'69 GTX and '66 Satellite converts - record prices?

2

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  • Is still being mfrd. in mexico and is quite the hot
    "import" being smuggled over the border !

    Thankfully I purchased 6 30 lb. canisters several years
    back for $99 bucks each before the US ban took effect.
    I have 2 bar/rest./motel operations (and cars too)with plenty of r-12 required equipment.
    Sure comes in handy and cheap too !
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,403
    No harm done if you evacuate the systems properly and don't let the R12 into the air. I'd check those Mexico supplies carefully. Sometimes they put propane in the tanks! (Oddly enough, it sorta works, but...gulp..)

    MODERATOR

  • texasestexases Posts: 5,510
    Guess there's a few more years for Mexico:
    "However, the Montreal Protocol set two schedules for the phase out of ODS—1996 for developed countries and 2010 for developing countries—and unwittingly created a black market in the process. Automobile refrigerants like chlorofluorocarbon 12 (CFC-12), also known as R-12, went from a legal price of $4 per pound to a black market price of $30 a pound in the US."
  • Heck yea LP/propane gas is/can be used as a refrigerant
    (spl). RV fridges use it.............
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,510
    Well, they run on it, instead of electricity. I'm not sure what the 'working fluid' that does the cooling is.
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-Plymouth-Satellite-Convertible-s-Match-Resto- red_W0QQitemZ300172944204QQihZ020QQcategoryZ6415QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVie- wItem

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-PLYMOUTH-GTX-440-CONVERTIBLE-440-COMMANDO-EN- GINE_W0QQitemZ160180088284QQihZ006QQcategoryZ6412QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVi- ewItem

    The first link shows a restored '66 Plymouth Satellite convertible in what appears to be very good condition. The second link shows a very similar '66 Satellite, but as a GTX clone.

    Which would be the better car to have and are these asking prices any where close to their market value?
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    In doing some research, I'm find conflicting information as to whether the GTX option was even an available option in '66. Some sources show that the GTX option (before it was it's own model a few years later) didn't arrive until '67. Can anyone confirm this?

    More importantly, if the GTX option didn't exist until '67, what does that do to the value of the '66 GTX clone cited in the post above. Admittedly, a clone is a clone - meaning, it's obviously worth less than the real McCoy. But, when no real McCoy existed in the first place, how do you value something like this? What comps would you use?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,403
    You comp the '66 Clone GTX as a '66 Belvedere convertible in very nice condition with big block added. I'd think $20,000 is all the money for this car.

    Anyone who pays more is going to be the first to eat dirt when the muscle car market contracts, which it is already doing. It's gone stagnant, except for lots of cars being shipped overseas.

    The asking price for th '66 Satellite is laughable. It's not even listed in most muscle car price guides because it doesn't have a 383 or 426, which everyone wants. AND it's automatic. I'd say it's priced at LEAST $10,000---$12,000 over actual value. It's not even a car many people want and shouldn't be called a "muscle car" at all.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,846
    My old car book doesn't list a GTX at all for 1966. Now for 1967, it lists a Belvedere GTX, with a 375 hp 440 being the standard engine. The only optional engine was the 426 Hemi. For 1968, it was just called "GTX".

    I'm also not familiar with a high performance 361 for 1966, either. For the most part, the 361 never was a high-performance engine. The 1958-60 361-2bbls put out 295 hp, while the 4-bbl was usually good for 305-310. Most powerful 361 was what they offered in the 1958 DeSoto adventurer. Something like 345 with dual quads and 355 with fuel injection. For 1959 though, the 383 and 413 came onto the scene, and they were the main focus for performance. In fact, for 1961, the 361 got downgraded to 265 hp in 2-bbl form, although the 4-bbl stayed with 305-310. My book lists 1962 as the last year for the 361-4bbl, so I'm wondering if that '66 Satellite is just an original 2-bbl with a 4-bbl thrown on? 1966 was the 361's last year, and for 1967 it was replaced by a toned down version of the 383.
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    http://www.bestofshowautomotive.com/pages/Cars/131074/Pages/cars.html

    There may be a more beautiful '67 GTX on the planet, but I doubt it. Before it sold, this car was listed for $85,000 by a dealer in Ohio - though no idea what the eventual sale price was. The ad says that only 680 of these were built. I didn't realize so few were produced. That would help explain the astronomical asking price. Good Gawd, I think this car is absolutely gorgeous. Makes that red '66 GTX clone in St. Louis (with an asking price in the mid to high twenties) that is practically identical start to look like somewhat of a bargain.

    I've never been a huge Mopar fan, but I'm beginning to see the light. Oh, to be able to step back in time to 1967 and walk into a Dodge/Plymouth dealer with $20,000 in your pocket. You'd wind up with a car collection that would even make Craig Jackson jealous.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,846
    I've never been a huge Mopar fan, but I'm beginning to see the light. Oh, to be able to step back in time to 1967 and walk into a Dodge/Plymouth dealer with $20,000 in your pocket.

    Yeah, some of them are definitely an acquired taste. I always thought the intermediate Mopars hit their styling peak with the 1968-70 models. In contrast, the '66-67 intermediates look sort of like the box the '68's came in! Still, there's something tough and brutal about the style of the '66-67, like it's all business and no pretense. GM's '66-67 intermediates were much prettier looking, but the Mopars just looked tougher.

    The '66-67 Mopar intermediates were pretty well-built, too. There was a definite decline in quality with the '68-70 models. However, as the 60's came to a close and the 70's dawned, that was pretty much an industry-wide trend and really gave new meaning to the old phrase "they don't build 'em the way the used to!"
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,403
    Hard to say what it's worth without seeing it. Looks like about $60,000 to me from photos, but some of these auction cars are way over the top restorations that cost the owners well over $100,000 to do up.

    Some of these guys are fanatics. You wouldn't believe. How about paying $3,500 for a factory new stock set of decals (yes, the tiny ones). Or $20,000 for the correct wheels and bias-ply tires?

    One guy spent two years hunting down an original in the box carburetor dash-pot.

    On the #1 cars, every nut and bolt, every single piece of the car, down to the last clip and fastener, is not only restored, but restored in the proper finish. Factory paint and chalk marks are duplicated, and even the splash and drip marks done hastily in the factory are duplicated. All new glass is etched and date-coded. Sometimes 4 or 5 parts cars are purchased, just to find some heater ducting that is date-code correct. Some guys spend over 4,000 man-hours and 8 to 10 years restoring a car.

    One guy spent $3,000 to have dies made so as to faithfully reproduce some impressions on his interior panels.

    The paint jobs, including final finishing, can cost $25,000.

    Or to put it another way, if you see it driving down the street, it's not a #1 car.

    MODERATOR

  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,116
    Or to put it another way, if you see it driving down the street, it's not a #1 car.

    Sad. All that money and all you've got is a garage/trailer queen! These cars were meant to be driven!
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    http://www.connorsmotorcar.com/68Plymouth.html

    Here's a nice looking '68 Sport Fury convertible listed for $24,900. I don't know what to make of it, because of the 4-speed and the 383 4 bbl. While I know that 4-speeds found their way into some pretty big sized Mopars around this time, weren't they generally more along the lines of a Road Runner, GTX, or any of the other Dodge/Plymouths with more of a performance image?

    I suppose it's possible the buyer of this Fury wanted a "go-fast" car. But, I'm more inclined to think this car was configured more as an economy option. The perception was probably that the 4-speed would provide better fuel economy, though I would've thought a smaller engine (was a 2 bbl or a 6-cyl. even an option?) would've been ordered if that were the case. The fact that this car doesn't have power windows, power locks or A/C also leads me to believe that someone wanted a semi boy-racer that was fairly stripped, option-wise. Maybe the buyer was a guy in his early 30's with a wife and kids that needed a grocery getter, but still wanted a rather fun car where he could "stir" the gears.

    A Fury just doesn't strike me as a car someone would own as "muscle car" back in the day. Perhaps a dealer would've ordered this to have on his lot? - possibly to move someone up to a higher-optioned Fury?

    While some might "yak" over the color combination, I like it. You just don't see this color today. Yeah, yeah, I know there's probably a good reason for that. LOL!

    BTW, can any one tell if this car has power steering or power brakes?
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,846
    The Sport Fury was basically Mopar's equivalent of the Impala SS. It was their sporty big car, but still came a'la carte, where you had to pick and choose the options you wanted. And it was sporty in looks only. You still had to pay extra for the cool stuff like a big engine, bucket seats, console, extra gauges (although Mopars usually had more standard gauges than their GM counterparts) etc.

    I'd imagine that '68 Fury would be pretty quick, especially with the 4-speed, Sure Grip rear, and especially if it has quick gearing. The 383-4bbl is nothing exotic, at least not in a car this size. It would be a decent performer, but in this size class the 375 hp 440 would be the one to have.

    As for power brakes, yes it has them...I can see the power booster. I can't tell if it has power steering, though. If it did, the pump would most likely be down on the driver's side of the engine, but in the engine view the battery is blocking that location.

    A slant six with 145 hp was standard in the lower-end Fury, with a 230 hp 318-2bbl being optional, then the 383-2bbl, which probably put out around 290 hp by that time. I dunno what was standard in the Sport Fury, though.
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    Thanks. That's good information. By the late 60's, I know that most Impala SS's came with an automatic transmission and I would imagine the same would be true of the Sport Fury. Any one have a guess to how rare the 4-speed was in one of these?

    While it seems that $20K+ is the price of admission these days for any collector car worth having, the $24,900 asking price for this mildly option example (albeit in pretty good condition) still seems pretty steep to me. I would think that $15K to $18K (perhaps less) would be all the money for this one. But, given that this car is now in the clutches of a dealer (ugh!), this car will likely sit at that price until some unsuspecting buyer with more more than sense comes along - to which the dealer will claim the high sale price as "market value". Well, perhaps. But, a market of "one" is not a market in my book.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,403
    $24K is on the high end but it's not out of the question if the car were really really nice. But any flaws hidden by the camera would immediately plunge the value into the teens, yes. And it's only a 383, which will limit future value, as these cars came with the 440 option, which is the one everyone wants. The 440/375HP is worth at least another $8,000 in the marketplace.

    MODERATOR

  • parmparm Posts: 723
    http://www.bestofshowautomotive.com/pages/Cars/131013/Pages/cars.html

    From the same dealer that had the Gold '67 GTX convertible, here's a gorgeous '67 Coronet R/T convertible. Alas, this too has also been sold (yeah, like I would've had a chance!). The asking price was $57,900 - Ouch! But, it does have the 440 and had recently received a pretty complete restoration and appears to be well-documented. Obviously, we have no idea what it sold for, but I'm guessing the asking price is pretty close to world record status for a '67 Coronet R/T convertible (non-Hemi flavor).

    With a car this nice, I'd be afraid to drive it any where for fear of hurting its condition (which is what drove the price of this thing to the top in the first place) - and that would truly be a shame.

    I'll say this, this dealer knows how to find some pretty choice cars.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,167
    "With a car this nice, I'd be afraid to drive it any where..."

    That's exactly why I'd have zero interest in ever buying a car llike that one. You're hostage to the condition and price of the car. If you drive it, you devalue it, and if you don't drive it it's likely to be a bad investment, particularly after you factor in the opportunity cost of that money. Also, you obviously cannot fully enjoy a car you just look at, but don't drive. I wouldn't begin to get enough enjoyment just looking at a classic in #1 condition to justify the cost of ownership. It makes a lot more sense to do your admiring at car shows, where all you invest is some spare time.

    While I'm not knowledgeable or prescient enough to predict what the value of these cars will be in, say, five or ten years, it seems to me that once the demand from the generation who either owned one or lusted for one dries up, the value is likely to decline. There may be some demand from abroad, especially if the dollar continues to weaken, but I wouldn't count on it replacing the demand from North American buyers who remember these cars. Some of the muscle cars currently on the market or registered to car buffs will eventually end up in museums around the world, but that will be a sign that demand is weakening, not strengthening.

    Am I missing something?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,403
    Seems overpriced by about $10,000....but you know, if the dealer drops down $5K, and the car was a rotisserie restoration, it might be priced about right when the money changes hands.

    I don't think you could restore a car like this for $57,000, from a beater.

    I'd have to see it, but unless it's a #1++ car, I'd say $45,000 is all the money.

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