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'69 GTX and '66 Satellite converts - record prices?

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Comments

  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,065
    I've never been a huge Mopar fan, but I'm beginning to see the light. Oh, to be able to step back in time to 1967 and walk into a Dodge/Plymouth dealer with $20,000 in your pocket.

    Yeah, some of them are definitely an acquired taste. I always thought the intermediate Mopars hit their styling peak with the 1968-70 models. In contrast, the '66-67 intermediates look sort of like the box the '68's came in! Still, there's something tough and brutal about the style of the '66-67, like it's all business and no pretense. GM's '66-67 intermediates were much prettier looking, but the Mopars just looked tougher.

    The '66-67 Mopar intermediates were pretty well-built, too. There was a definite decline in quality with the '68-70 models. However, as the 60's came to a close and the 70's dawned, that was pretty much an industry-wide trend and really gave new meaning to the old phrase "they don't build 'em the way the used to!"
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,320
    Hard to say what it's worth without seeing it. Looks like about $60,000 to me from photos, but some of these auction cars are way over the top restorations that cost the owners well over $100,000 to do up.

    Some of these guys are fanatics. You wouldn't believe. How about paying $3,500 for a factory new stock set of decals (yes, the tiny ones). Or $20,000 for the correct wheels and bias-ply tires?

    One guy spent two years hunting down an original in the box carburetor dash-pot.

    On the #1 cars, every nut and bolt, every single piece of the car, down to the last clip and fastener, is not only restored, but restored in the proper finish. Factory paint and chalk marks are duplicated, and even the splash and drip marks done hastily in the factory are duplicated. All new glass is etched and date-coded. Sometimes 4 or 5 parts cars are purchased, just to find some heater ducting that is date-code correct. Some guys spend over 4,000 man-hours and 8 to 10 years restoring a car.

    One guy spent $3,000 to have dies made so as to faithfully reproduce some impressions on his interior panels.

    The paint jobs, including final finishing, can cost $25,000.

    Or to put it another way, if you see it driving down the street, it's not a #1 car.

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  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,196
    Or to put it another way, if you see it driving down the street, it's not a #1 car.

    Sad. All that money and all you've got is a garage/trailer queen! These cars were meant to be driven!
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    http://www.connorsmotorcar.com/68Plymouth.html

    Here's a nice looking '68 Sport Fury convertible listed for $24,900. I don't know what to make of it, because of the 4-speed and the 383 4 bbl. While I know that 4-speeds found their way into some pretty big sized Mopars around this time, weren't they generally more along the lines of a Road Runner, GTX, or any of the other Dodge/Plymouths with more of a performance image?

    I suppose it's possible the buyer of this Fury wanted a "go-fast" car. But, I'm more inclined to think this car was configured more as an economy option. The perception was probably that the 4-speed would provide better fuel economy, though I would've thought a smaller engine (was a 2 bbl or a 6-cyl. even an option?) would've been ordered if that were the case. The fact that this car doesn't have power windows, power locks or A/C also leads me to believe that someone wanted a semi boy-racer that was fairly stripped, option-wise. Maybe the buyer was a guy in his early 30's with a wife and kids that needed a grocery getter, but still wanted a rather fun car where he could "stir" the gears.

    A Fury just doesn't strike me as a car someone would own as "muscle car" back in the day. Perhaps a dealer would've ordered this to have on his lot? - possibly to move someone up to a higher-optioned Fury?

    While some might "yak" over the color combination, I like it. You just don't see this color today. Yeah, yeah, I know there's probably a good reason for that. LOL!

    BTW, can any one tell if this car has power steering or power brakes?
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,065
    The Sport Fury was basically Mopar's equivalent of the Impala SS. It was their sporty big car, but still came a'la carte, where you had to pick and choose the options you wanted. And it was sporty in looks only. You still had to pay extra for the cool stuff like a big engine, bucket seats, console, extra gauges (although Mopars usually had more standard gauges than their GM counterparts) etc.

    I'd imagine that '68 Fury would be pretty quick, especially with the 4-speed, Sure Grip rear, and especially if it has quick gearing. The 383-4bbl is nothing exotic, at least not in a car this size. It would be a decent performer, but in this size class the 375 hp 440 would be the one to have.

    As for power brakes, yes it has them...I can see the power booster. I can't tell if it has power steering, though. If it did, the pump would most likely be down on the driver's side of the engine, but in the engine view the battery is blocking that location.

    A slant six with 145 hp was standard in the lower-end Fury, with a 230 hp 318-2bbl being optional, then the 383-2bbl, which probably put out around 290 hp by that time. I dunno what was standard in the Sport Fury, though.
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    Thanks. That's good information. By the late 60's, I know that most Impala SS's came with an automatic transmission and I would imagine the same would be true of the Sport Fury. Any one have a guess to how rare the 4-speed was in one of these?

    While it seems that $20K+ is the price of admission these days for any collector car worth having, the $24,900 asking price for this mildly option example (albeit in pretty good condition) still seems pretty steep to me. I would think that $15K to $18K (perhaps less) would be all the money for this one. But, given that this car is now in the clutches of a dealer (ugh!), this car will likely sit at that price until some unsuspecting buyer with more more than sense comes along - to which the dealer will claim the high sale price as "market value". Well, perhaps. But, a market of "one" is not a market in my book.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,320
    $24K is on the high end but it's not out of the question if the car were really really nice. But any flaws hidden by the camera would immediately plunge the value into the teens, yes. And it's only a 383, which will limit future value, as these cars came with the 440 option, which is the one everyone wants. The 440/375HP is worth at least another $8,000 in the marketplace.

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  • parmparm Posts: 723
    http://www.bestofshowautomotive.com/pages/Cars/131013/Pages/cars.html

    From the same dealer that had the Gold '67 GTX convertible, here's a gorgeous '67 Coronet R/T convertible. Alas, this too has also been sold (yeah, like I would've had a chance!). The asking price was $57,900 - Ouch! But, it does have the 440 and had recently received a pretty complete restoration and appears to be well-documented. Obviously, we have no idea what it sold for, but I'm guessing the asking price is pretty close to world record status for a '67 Coronet R/T convertible (non-Hemi flavor).

    With a car this nice, I'd be afraid to drive it any where for fear of hurting its condition (which is what drove the price of this thing to the top in the first place) - and that would truly be a shame.

    I'll say this, this dealer knows how to find some pretty choice cars.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,252
    "With a car this nice, I'd be afraid to drive it any where..."

    That's exactly why I'd have zero interest in ever buying a car llike that one. You're hostage to the condition and price of the car. If you drive it, you devalue it, and if you don't drive it it's likely to be a bad investment, particularly after you factor in the opportunity cost of that money. Also, you obviously cannot fully enjoy a car you just look at, but don't drive. I wouldn't begin to get enough enjoyment just looking at a classic in #1 condition to justify the cost of ownership. It makes a lot more sense to do your admiring at car shows, where all you invest is some spare time.

    While I'm not knowledgeable or prescient enough to predict what the value of these cars will be in, say, five or ten years, it seems to me that once the demand from the generation who either owned one or lusted for one dries up, the value is likely to decline. There may be some demand from abroad, especially if the dollar continues to weaken, but I wouldn't count on it replacing the demand from North American buyers who remember these cars. Some of the muscle cars currently on the market or registered to car buffs will eventually end up in museums around the world, but that will be a sign that demand is weakening, not strengthening.

    Am I missing something?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,320
    Seems overpriced by about $10,000....but you know, if the dealer drops down $5K, and the car was a rotisserie restoration, it might be priced about right when the money changes hands.

    I don't think you could restore a car like this for $57,000, from a beater.

    I'd have to see it, but unless it's a #1++ car, I'd say $45,000 is all the money.

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  • parmparm Posts: 723
    I don't disagree. For most folks, when you have a #1 car, you do become a hostage to it as was so eloquently stated. That's actually a very good way of putting it. With a freshly restored car, the trick is not be the 1st buyer, but rather the 2nd or 3rd. Case in point, I'd be interested to know what this '67 Coronet R/T would go for in ten years. Note to anyone out there in the process doing a full-blown restoration of a mid to late 60's convertible - call me in 10 years. LOL!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,320
    Hard to say. It's not THAT rare a car (over 10,000 made) and it's not a Hemi. And the muscle car market seems to be pretty stretched out.

    The big danger of course is that someday, perhaps someday soon, someone is going to notice that this is just a Dodge, and adjust values accordingly.

    This is a market that could collapse at any time, except for the very rarest, biggest-engined, highly documented, verified, over-restored examples---which will always be a blue chip.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,065
    Where'd you get that 10,000 figure, Shifty? Dodge combined Coronet 500/RT production in 1967, and only built 39,260 combined that year. That includes the Coronet 500 hardtop coupe, sedan, and convertible, in both slant six/V-8 configuration, as well as the Coronet RT hardtop and convertible. I doubt if they made more than 1000 Coronet RT convertibles.

    Plymouth kept better track of production back then. In 1967, for example, they sold 1552 Belvedere convertibles, and 2050 Satellites...but, that Satellite total includes the GTX.

    In 1968, Plymouth sold 1771 Satellite convertibles, 1523 Sport Satellites, and 1026 GTXes.

    Mopar convertibles always were rare compared to their GM competition. For example, in 1967, Pontiac sold 4082 Tempest Custom convertibles, 9820 LeMans convertibles, and 9517 GTO verts
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,320
    They made 9,553 Coronet R/T hardtops and 628 convertibles in 1967, according to the Dodge & Plymouth Muscle Car Red Book.

    Point is, this is not rare by top-tier muscle car standards. It's rare compared to a Chevelle, of course, but not compared to the really big buck muscle cars.

    It's only when you start adding the rare engine options that the numbers drop into that delicious arena of mere tens or under 100 of something.

    I don't think I've ever seen a 1967 R/T Hemi---that would be rare!!

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,065
    Okay, but 628 is still awfully rare compared to 10,000! As for the Hemi, I doubt if they made more than 70-100 of them with it. And with all the aftermarket conversions, clones, crate Hemis, etc, I'd imagine there are more 426 Hemis running around today than were originally produced!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,320
    Rarity alone doesn't count. People have to want the car as well. Some 6 cylinder convertible can be rarer than any Hemi but it won't have much value.

    Anyway, without documentation one's Hemi-engined car is often regarded as a counterfeit.

    Burden of proof is on the owner. Even VIN tags and data plates are suspect.

    Again, muscle car prices are all about the engines, not the cars.

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