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Dodge Dakota - Quad Cab

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Comments

  • 2nddak2nddak Posts: 44
    Raybo, I had a rough idle on my 4.7 that wasn't annoying enogh to pursue and one day by accident, I found a cracked vaccum hose on the left side of the manifold area as you look at it from the grill. Fixing that cured the idle problem. I had a more miles on it than you do though. Just a thought and easy fix. Kevin
  • mopar67mopar67 Posts: 728
    "This is my fourth fall with my 4.7 (65K miles) and when it's cold in the morning and warm in the afternoon, the 4.7 runs rough. The computer takes longer to adjust for the cold intake air temp. This is normal and you shouldn't worry about it. It's just the way it is. Kind of like getting use to your wife (10 years and counting). "

    If you are talking about a vehicle equipped with a Holley 2 bbl with a sticky choke, bad accel. pump, and worn jets, yes, this is indeed normal.

    But on a modern computer controlled engine, its not. I have driven many other FI vehicles, including mopars, and none have a rough idle like this.

    As I said, there is a PCM flash that fixes the rough idle and the stall after a cold start. I had the same thing and by golly on the third flash, Chrysler got it right.
  • mtrialsmmtrialsm Posts: 159
    I have the "spit-front" seat in my dakota quad.
    It's realy just bucket seats with a center section
    and arm rest/storage,,right? Has anyone wanted to
    or has swapped it out with a center console from
    a "bucket seat" model?
    I've got taupe color interior, anyone want to trade?
    Mick
    trialsmm@hotmail.com
  • I considered this when I still had my Quad Cab Dakota. If you find someone to swap you will need to swap seats as well, or at least the seat frames. On the 40-20-40 seat setup there are tabs welded to the seat frames that the center seat mounts. The frames on the bucket seat/console setup do not have these mounting tabs. If you watch Ebay you may find a console on there relatively cheap. The center console from a Durango is very similar and could be made to work. You could also just remove the center seat and build a custom console. Rick
  • spike50spike50 Posts: 481
    In the first 10K, my '00 (5sp) started to have the typical rough idle. That wasn't that bad but for some reason the engine would die while coasting up to or partially through turns with the clutch pushed in. With the engine stopped, I lost my steering and this almost caused several head-on collisions. Luckily and quick turn of the key would start the engine and I could continue turning the steering wheel to reach my proper destination. A PCM flash fixed the problem.

    I've probably worn this "excuse" out by now but it has kept my wife from ever driving the truck.
  • My 2003 4.7 has done this sporadically, every now and then since new (23 Kms). It now has about 7500Kms on it. It happens so rarely that I forgot to meantion it when it was in for it's 5000Km service. It did it this afternoon actually. Glad to here It's not unheard of.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    How come this comes up every year about this time? Gee, I wonder.

    Shall I remind everyone about the "learning" aspect of the ECU? As the weather gets cooler, the ECU must relearn how to idle under the new ambient temps.

    I will leave it up to curious readers to review past Dakota forum entries and read about my "handy dandy quick learning" process. I must have typed into these pages at least 3 times since the year 2000.

    HINT: This is a maintenance issue so look in the Dakota Maintainance forum.
  • jimtjimt Posts: 56
    Glad you had safe trip south. Holiday travel can be quite trying. My wife and I both worked Thanksgiving Day so our driving was fairly limited. We are on East coast of Florida; I believe you have settled on on West coast. ( Has much to offer also!) Enjoy your winter! JimT
  • dustykdustyk Posts: 2,926
    A fellow worker bought a 2003 dakota, 4.7, auto, soon after I bought mine. About a month ago he started to have a rough idle problem, but his also was accompanied by stalling and some "surging," as he described it.

    When he took it in for service they diagnoised the problem to the aftermarket filter he had installed. It appears that the oil from the filter contaminated a sensor in the fuel system. Since the repair it has run fine.

    Dusty
  • bpeebles -
    Is this a one way thing, as in only as it gets colder, or should I expect it to do it when it gets warmer too. Mine has done it every now and then since a couple hundred Kms off the lot 7500 Kms ago. It's only started to get what I would consider colder around here the last couple weeks except for maybe a day or two at the first of November (when it was at the 5000 Km mark). Other than that, the temps have been quite steady in the mid teens to the mid twenties celcius and it's done it all along.
    I was chalking the occasional rough idle up to the learning curve of the ECU, which I thought it would be done learning after 7500 Kms. I guess, the truck hasn't experienced -30 temps yet, so it hasn't finished learning yet.
    If this happens every time the temperature swings, then I guess I should expect it to happen more frequently over the next six months because the temps swing from quite warm to very cold on a weekly or biweekly (and sometimes daily) basis around here from December onward.

    I'll be sure to check out your handy-dandy quick learner process in the meantime.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    The learning curve' of the ECU is based on several things. There is an algorythim that starts with some 'base' settings (idle setting, ignition timing...etc) then a 'fudge factor' is added in to modify that 'base' configuration.

    It is this 'fudge factor' that includes a 'map' of what worked well the when specific criteria were met. (such as ambient temp)

    The problem with this design is that it ends up simply 'averaging' a whole bunch of stuff together to get to the 'fudge factor' this usually works well.. until one of the inputs has a large swing. (such as ambient temp swings that you get in the north)

    My Dakota is the first fuel-injected vehicle I have ever owned that has troubles idling. There is NO EXCUSE for this.

    Personally, I feel that Dodge needs to hire some engineers that can come up with better algorythim for the ECUs.

    Luckally, my engineering background allowed me to get around this poor design by "forcing" the ECU to relearn the idle.

    I have been toying with some other ideas to improve the idle quality of my Dakota.. but I have little time to spend on it.

    Were you aware that disconecting the battery for over 10 minutes will ERASE all the fudge-factors and it will have to relearn how to run all over again? If you have the automatic xmission, the shifting will get all mixed up too. (until it relearns your driving habits.)
  • dustykdustyk Posts: 2,926
    Bpeebles, I think you've described the operation of the ECU (PCM in Chrysler parlance) in open loop condition. Open loop does store past set point events to build a history in RAM. I honestly don't know if it stores past events as an average and builds a constantly refreshed algorythm. That might be true.

    But in closed loop various sensors are supplying input data to adjust injector pulse width, ignition timing, and idle air port opening to control idle, as well as the air-fuel ratio for the engine through its operating range.

    Now most systems I'm familar with operates in open loop at initial start to some predetermined point in operating temperature. After a certain temperature is reached the system goes into closed loop for cruising and idle speeds. Most systems do switch to open loop for acceration, but back again when a cruise condition is reached.

    If your explaination is correct I can see how the PCM effects the idle from initial start through the warm-up period, but I don't see an PCM influence on a warm idle problem unless it is getting false or non-calibrated inputs from any number of sensors.

    Thoughts?

    Best regards,
    Dusty
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    (Dusty)I am quite familear with the differences between the 'loops'. This has very little to do with the PCM learning process. The factory shop manual has a detailed description on how there are specific "last known good" fudge-factors that are based on several outside factors such as ambient air temperture.

    The "closed loop" you are refering to is when the exhaust o2 sensors are "looped back" to determine running conditions for the least emmissions.

    I guess, now that I think about it... in the end it is the desire to control EMMISSIONS that are making the idle so crappy at times.
  • bookittybookitty Posts: 1,303
    Boy, you guys are really sharp and are way over my head! When the thread gets around to talking about setting points and adjusting carburetors, I'll jump right in.

    Bookitty
  • mopar67mopar67 Posts: 728
    During cold start and warmup, the ECU, PCM or whatever you chose to call it, runs off pre mapped algorithms. IF that code is wrong for whatever reason, then voila! you have a lousy idle.

    You are correct however in your stance that a FI vehicle should not run like this. I consider myself somewhat of an expert in this area due to experience with PCM flashes and ambient temperatures. It was not an experience that I vounteered for however!

    I don't think its a question of Dodge having less than stellar engineers. Consider the budgets foisted upon them by the finance people along with rushed development cycles and its a wonder that your dodge or any dodge for that matter runs properly at all.

    That is one main reason I left the Dodge family......I resented performing unpaid duties as a development engineer.

    Quote from bpeebles"

    "How come this comes up every year about this time? Gee, I wonder.

    Shall I remind everyone about the "learning" aspect of the ECU? As the weather gets cooler, the ECU must relearn how to idle under the new ambient temps.

    I will leave it up to curious readers to review past Dakota forum entries and read about my "handy dandy quick learning" process. I must have typed into these pages at least 3 times since the year 2000."

    Funny how Dodge PCM has to "learn" changes in climate and for the driver to have to put up with a lousy running engine. The asian automakers don't seem to have this problem
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    (bookitty) I can talk carbs-n-points too!

    Would you beleive, as a kid, I used to disassemble -n- reassemble an ol' rochester carberator for fun?

    By the time I was about 12 years old, everyone in the neighborhood would bring their small-engined appliences to me for repair.

    My first vehicle was a 3-cylinder 2-stroke motorcycle. The thing has 3 points, 3 carberators, 3 exhaust systems....etc It took some skill to tune all 3 cylinders to be spot-on... but when it was tuned properly it would out-accellerate bikes with TWICE the displacement.

    When Vechicles first started with the fuel-injection, they were mostly junk. (a couple squiters in a disabled carberotor body)

    Modern engines are very different. Since the Federal government mandated OBD-II in all vehicles. It is actually EASIER to tune them.
    A laptop computer and the right software can plug right in to the OBD-II interface.

    The problem is that many of todays "MECHANICS" are not prepared for this "dualisity" of their jobs. (part Mechanic and part software wizzard)

    Quite often, if the onboard computer does not show a problem, they are totally lost.

    That seems to be right were I come in. I am very well versed in IC engines and am a computer programmer by trade. (ref my profile 8-)
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    I am not discussing idle quality DURING WARMUP. You are totally correct that open-loop idle is based on 'special' mappings.

    I stand fast to my assertation that AFTER REACHING OPERATING TEMP.. the engine has 'fudge factors' that are stored in memory and updated with an averaging algorythim based on recient ambient temps.
  • mopar67mopar67 Posts: 728
    but rather cold start. I thought I made that clear.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    I guess I missed the original discussion somwhere.

    Cold-start idle issues should be approached by removing and cleaning the TB. This includes the IAC motor.

    In over 50,000 miles, my 4.7L V8 has always idled acceptably when in open-loop mode. One could also turn on the AC to gain a 50 or so RPMs in the idle too. (in cold wether the AC compressor should not come on ... according to the manual)
  • mopar67mopar67 Posts: 728
    but rather cold start. I thought I made that clear.
  • mopar67mopar67 Posts: 728
    like us to be repetive.......ignore my second post.
  • Yup, I am aware of the 10 minute "Fudge Factor Flush". Presently, I don't consider the rough idle a problem. More like another unexpected nuisance I wouldn't have expected from a $40,000.00 (CAN) truck.
    .. however, a re-learnin' may be in the future, once the weather improves.
  • looking at a 2002 quadcab sport plus with 4 wheel drive and the 4.7. i have looked at pricing here and at kbb. wondering if you feel 17,500 is a fair price. truck has 39300 miles.

    I've been lurking for a bit, thanks all for the good info.
  • I've been lurking around for the past couple of weeks getting lots of useful Dakota info in this topic. Anyways, I paid a visit to a local Dodge dealer, tried out both a Quad cab and a Club cab, and things were looking pretty good until the dealer tried lowballing me on my trade-in($1000 below blue book). The main reason he gave me was that since my sports car (99 Merc Cougar V6) had a manual tranny. He also recommended that I add an automatic to my potential Dakota order, saying that the trade-in value down the road would be much higher. The fact that he only had auto Dakotas in his lot was most likely a motivating factor. Anyways, I thanked him for his time and walked out of the dealership. After I got into my car, another guy (probably the sales manager) came up to me and tried cutting a deal in which the proceeds from me selling the car on my own would be treated as the trade-in value. However, he didn't want to increase the trade-in offer himself. I said I'd think about it and drove off.

    I figured I'd mention this to see if anyone else out there encountered a similar situation. I like manual trannys in my vehicles. However, it looks like the great majority of folks want automatics in their vehicles. As a result, it appears that a car/truck with a manual is a liability when it's time to trade it in. Any thoughts/opinions on this would be appreciated.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    He is mostly feeding you BS. Besides, you have to consider that it COSTS nearly $800 for the auto tranny to begin with and you will get WORSE MPG and have to perform more costly preventive maintenance on it too.

    Get what you want. Why pay for somthing you dont really want betting that some future "trade in value" will be more. That is a pretty lame reason to pay for an option. Are you buying a vehicle as an INVESTMENT or for TRANSPORTATION?

    Another way to look at it....

    Use the edmunds "Used Car Appraiser" with and without the auto tranny.

    I just ran my 2000 Dak thru the "Used Car Appraiser" and found that the auto Xmission would be worth about $300-$400. I am glad I did not pay the Xtra $800 for one.
  • dustykdustyk Posts: 2,926
    Resale value is determined by many things, but the primary factor is initial cost. The basic rule is the more you spend the more it will be worth.

    The "lower resale" comment for manual transmissions is true, but as Bpeebles points out so is the initial cost. The true resale value is the differential between what was paid and what can be returned in cash value. I ran several combinations of Dakota through the Kelly Used Car on-line and pretty much got the same result as Bpeebles.

    There is one disadvantage when trading in most manual transmission equiped vehicles, and it's the real reason why new car dealers talk them down on trade-in. The turnaround time is longer due to the fact that most people want an automatic transmission when looking for a vehicle. This means the marketability is lower and hence they have a tendency to sit longer on the lot.

    For this reason and this reason alone you may be more likely to get a low-ball offer on a manual, all other things being equal. This is especially true the newer the vehicle is because manual transmission trucks in the higher used price ranges are not as marketable as less expensive ones. A $4995 used Dakota with a manual has a lot more marketability, either to people looking for a truck as a second or third vehicle driven for specific purposes, or to the more youthful person who is either getting their first vehicle and often prefers a manual.

    Best regards,
    Dusty
  • bookittybookitty Posts: 1,303
    Alan, the dealer is trying to get you to pay, in order to simplify his business. When I sold (privately after hearing all of the dealer BS re standard shift) my Ford Explorer, the buyer commented, "I've been looking everywhere trying to find an Explorer with a 5 speed." When I sold my '95 Dakota with the 318 and the 5 speed the buyer commented, "I've been looking everywhere trying to find an Dakota V8 with a 5 speed." In both instances the new car dealer ran the sale as a "courtesy trade" to save me some sales tax. When asked by dealers as to why I don't want an automatic transmission, I always look them straight in the eye and respond thus; "I never learned how to drive one." Stick to your guns.

    Bookitty
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    (bookitty) I will have to start using that line too ;-)
  • fastback2 - I tend to agree totally with bpeebles. Most of these dealerships are looking for any excuse to tell you why your trade in isn't worth as much as you think. I would bet that if you went to that same dealer and told him your trade in was automatic that there wouldn't have been much difference if any in the price difference. If possible I would always try for a private sale. There is a certain segment of the population that will always prefer a manual shift and it is becoming increasingly difficult to find them. I gave up and ordred my 2K Dak to get mine and it was the primary reason I didn't buy a Tundra 4x4. I also ordered a 98 Ram 2500 with manual and had a dealer tell me that I shouldn't order it because it was inapprpriate for northern Virginia, I told him that if it was my money and I wanted it that it was appropriate for me.

    Ron
  • ferousferous Posts: 226
    I have also received a lot of grief about my 4.7 with the 5spd man. After 66K miles I still love it! I was told that I should also order my truck with 4wd as it would improve the resale. I laughed at the dealer and told him that after 150K miles, I will save more in gas than the resale will ever make up. He responded back with "you actually keep a truck for that long?". Yes I do, so I won't be back any time soon.
This discussion has been closed.