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Hyundai Sonata vs Honda Accord

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Comments

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I will let the thieves know. :D
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    "Profitable" automakers average about $1400 on each vehicle in profits. If they started $3K rebate on top of invoice, it sounds more like a giveaway. To compound the effect, nearly half (43%) of Sonata sales go into low profit fleet sales. How's Hyundai's bottom line, after all these rebates?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,694
    When is your 43% number from? Hyundai reportedly reduced Sonata sales to fleets in 2007. Also, do you know Hyundai's profit margin on fleet sales?

    Selling a car at invoice (actually below invoice, including holdback which is about $500 on a Sonata Limited) has zero effect on the profits of the automaker. It does affect the profits of the dealers however.

    For the past couple of years Honda had at times large manufacturer-to-dealer incentives on the Accord. These aren't to-buyer rebates, but the affect on corporate profits is the same. Since Honda is known as being one of the most profitable (per-unit) automakers, there is obviously plenty of room for incentives/rebates and profits.

    Despite the rebates, Hyundai's prices have been shooting up over the past couple of years as they improve product quality and look to increase profits. Three years ago, a $25k Sonata was unheard of, as was a $30k anything.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I stand corrected, it is 27.6% (I confused it with another car that I had in mind while posting 43%). But 28% is still a high number (15K units of 54K sold during mid-year fleet sales evaluation period). I don't have a clue about profit margin on fleet sales, but it is known to be a low profit option for automakers (a reason they choose to trim it down).

    I'm not talking about sales at invoice. I'm talking about massive rebates on top of invoice, and in that case, over $3K below invoice. Isn't it a common logic in this thread (and some others) that the strong suite of Sonata is that one can find incredible deals? I've heard $5K off quite a few times from you. Do you think that doesn't affect Hyundai?

    And now you're talking about rebates from Honda, something you presumed didn't benefit buyers.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,694
    Of course $3k in rebates affects Hyundai's profit margin. I'm not an idiot. But maybe they feel it's more important right now to get sales volumes up vs. profit per unit?

    And I was talking about manufacturer-to-dealer incentives on the Accord, which only benefit buyers if the dealers pass them along to buyers--which they are not required to do. But many/most do of course.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I've heard that one before. Remember the dot com boom? A lot of businesses went out seeking customers offering them incredible deals, like free stuff. When they started to charge, customers quit, the businesses... well they went down the drain.

    So far, the Hyundai strength I've been hearing about surrounds "value" (as in cheap for what you get). I also heard that Hyundai was dumping Sonata into rental fleet to advertise. What happened? 28% is second only to the worst offenders in rental fleets.

    Reality is way different, from a virtual world.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,694
    You may have read posts in other Town Hall discussions (e.g. Mid-Sized Sedans) re Accord owners who have driven nothing else, and won't even check out the Sonata. This is kind of extreme but it demonstrates the brand loyalty that Honda commands. How does Hyundai fight that? By getting folks like those into a Sonata any way they can. How do they do that? One way is to make it easy to drive the Sonata as a rental--the so-called "butts in seats" campaign from 2005-6 as one Hyundai exec put it. Another way is to make the financial incentives so enticing that even a die-hard Honda fan will take some time to check out the Sonata.

    That's reality in a world where one company is trying to gain market share against entrenched competition.
  • looked at a sonata before buying a 08 honda EX.Except for
    looks ,especially the dash,the sonata has the honda beat.
    disregarding resale value
  • godeacsgodeacs Posts: 481
    Say what? Then why did you buy the Honda????...... :confuse: :confuse:
  • car buying is emotional,fell in love with the
    looks of the new accord.
    It is really that simple.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    This is a first! Someone actually bought an Accord based on "LOOKS" alone. The new design is attractive to some. I think it looks great too, but then I am an Accord certified nut.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    I was responding to the post asking for justification of a $5,000 price differential between Sonata & Accord.

    But, what's your point? Should we have looked for a higher purchase price? I already have an '05 Sonata and felt it was a great car at a great price. Should I have been more concerned about helping corporate profits that I was about getting the best deal I could?

    We bought the car from Towne Hyundai, in NJ. Their internet price in Feb. was $1900 below invoice. They are a high volume dealer (very good to deal with by the way) and still make money selling cars at their internet prices. In addition to the dealer discount, we got a $1K general rebate, $1K rebate for HMFC financing (5.9% @ 60 months, lower APR for shorter term loan) and $500 owner loyalty rebate.

    Again, I was responding to real world prices and showed that nicely equipped Sonatas can be bought for $5K (or more) less than a comparable Accord. So, what's the problem? Do you think it is wise to pay $5K or more up front to get, maybe, $5K more in resale? I keep my cars for a long time. Last 4 purchases (for my personal use) '71, '84, '91 and '05. If the car should be "totaled" CT law, where I live, requires the insurance company to pay retail value. As of a month or two ago, the retail value of my 2.5 year old '05 Sonata was about $3700 less than I paid for it. Not too shabby in my opinion. Similar to a no money down out the door lease at about $150 per month.

    A 2.5 year old Accord must surely lose $3700 in value in that time period.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    By emulating Honda. :)

    Seriously though, and while I can’t speak for everybody, I can surely put my opinion on the subject you just touched. People didn’t start buying Accords right away. Honda’s approach to its product line was keeping things simple, efficient and reliable. Honda was only second model when it was launched in 1976. Two years later, a sport coupe based on Accord was launched as Prelude. While Honda added CRX in 1984, it was fundamentally a Civic. How long did Honda take to launch a fourth model? Welcome to the 90s, whopping two decades later.

    Honda’s product growth was based on success, with emphasis on quality over quantity. Sales followed. Most small companies tend to offer too many products in too little time, instead of focusing on core products. Honda’s approach was the opposite.

    People learnt to respect Honda’s core offering, and started to rightfully believe in every thing they produced. And when people learn to respect, it is hard to sway them. Nobody is perfect, but it is important to be as good as one can be, with consistency.

    I can see why people might not care for Sonata etc. I didn’t care for Camry and Taurus in the 1990s when looking for first car. If I were to buy a car today, I wouldn’t need to test drive a Sonata or a Camry. I have plenty of experience with them as rentals. There is absolutely no point in wasting my time to follow a sales person’s direction. I could use it somewhere else.

    And I may not want to test drive Passat either. Did that ten years ago, loved it and almost bought it before bringing home the Accord. After seeing the state of VWs firsthand, and how they age, I’m glad I didn’t. There is no point wasting my time going there either. And my Accord has given me enough reason to look at Honda. I can certainly afford to bring home a car that I enjoy driving and driving as well as the Accord has over 181K miles in ten years. I’m one of the people that Honda has managed to get hold of. Remember, the Accord was my first Honda, ever. Since then, I have bought a Prelude, Civic and now have a TL.

    Now you know why. :)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    All cars lose value. Some more than others.

    I’m not questioning your purchase, I’m wondering about the hit Hyundai is taking on each sale like that, and for how long can they sustain it. Back in 2001 when most automakers went for 0% financing, I was listening to an analyst over the radio who was talking about what might be next. One of his points was that automakers might actually be paying you to get their products. It was happening a lot in the dot com era, and cars aren’t too far from that reality. It is also one of the reasons for Chrysler/Ford/GM struggles. They used rebate as the bait and sold it. People got too used to it, and they won’t expect anything but rebates, or else take their business elsewhere.

    Hopefully, now you see where I went with my previous post. It can’t be anything but good for you to drive a car that you enjoy while the automaker (in a way) pays for it instead of you.
  • all i have to say my V6 has mind blowing 235 hp and 226 lb of torque,

    If 234 hp is mind blowing, you'd explode driving a new Camry, Altima, or Accord V6, with more torque and horsepower than the Sonata.
  • joeg1joeg1 Posts: 17
    All other comparative issues aside, the Accord is available with an in-dash navigation system. Some folks won't consider a car without it even though hand held units are a fraction of the price. Let's hope that Hyundai offers a reasonably priced in-dash system in the near future.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,694
    Honda’s product growth was based on success, with emphasis on quality over quantity. Sales followed. Most small companies tend to offer too many products in too little time, instead of focusing on core products. Honda’s approach was the opposite.

    It looks to me like Hyundai is emulating Honda. They started with one model, the Excel. They added their second model, the Sonata, four years later. Then their third, the Elantra, after three more years. Later, the Excel's name was changed to Accent, but that was it for models until the 2001 MY, when the Santa Fe and XG300 were introduced. They didn't add any more until the 2005 MY (Tuscon, based on the Elantra). In 1999, Hyundai refocused on quality and introduced their long-term warranty to back it up. Sales shot up, and product quality has been steadily improving since '99.

    You drove the current Sonata and decided you didn't like it. Great. Many people don't even bother to drive the Sonata, based on what they know about Hyundai from the days of the Excel. Would you have gone into a Hyundai dealership to drive a Sonata on your own? Probably not. But you did get to drive a Sonata (several it appears) because it was available as a rental. So from that aspect, Hyundai's "butts in seats" initiative worked. Will everyone who drives a Sonata as a rental buy one? Of course not. But many will, or at least give it serious consideration when they wouldn't have given it a second thought before.

    I was all set to buy a 2001 Civic before I drove some Elantras (actually some older 2000 models) as rentals. I was impressed by their quality and solidity, but heard a new design was coming for 2001 so I waited. And it was even better than the 2000 Elantra--better IMO than the 2001 Civic, which was also all-new for 2001. But Hyundai was an unknown quantity to me while Honda was not. That's where the warranty and financial incentives swayed me to take the leap. The 2001 Elantra cost about $6000 less than the Civic I was considering would have, and as I said I actually preferred the Elantra. Now seven years later, that car is still in my family and is running strong and reliably (and looks like new), as is my 2004 Elantra.

    So I am one of the people, former owner of multiple Hondas and Toyotas, that Hyundai has "managed to get hold of." Thus I would have no problem at least considering a Sonata vs. an Accord. But I will also consider Hondas and Toyotas. I just won't pay much extra for them.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,694
    Word from insiders is that Hyundai will offer factory nav with the 2009 MY refresh of the Sonata, due next spring. Until then, it's available (in-dash) as a dealer-installed option. Personally if I got a nav system, I'd get one of the nice portable ones for around $300, since I don't use it that much around town and could then use it in any of my vehicles.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    That’s right. A lot of people prefer not to take a chance, instead go with something that has impressed them over a long term, something that has proven itself. I am guilty of it myself. They tend to fall in repeat customers category. The downside to it is that as time goes by, the average age of buyers goes up. I was 23 when I got my first Honda (Accord), and if I go out to buy next Accord, I will be ten years older. And I don’t see a reason I shouldn’t buy another Accord. I drive a lot of cars, mostly brand new, thru rentals (I travel a lot, mostly for pleasure). These cars don’t need to be test driven either.

    So, it may be a combination of both, and perhaps more, that people just visit a Honda dealership and drive home the Accord. A friend of mine did just that. She wanted a Civic, got my help with negotiations, and 20 minutes later she was signing papers. Seven years later, she is planning to get the new Civic. She likes how it drives, and she averages over 30 mpg in city, and the car has been just as good as my Accord, absolutely no need for any kind of repair, and no rattle. It is as perfect a car for her as there can ever be. So, new Civic it is for her. One can’t blame her for not going out to try the new Elantra. She refuses to, after having rented one last year.

    There is nothing wrong with people sticking with something they find comfort in. For companies like Hyundai and Kia, they will have to be consistent and persistent and create enough wow factor to sway buyers. They can’t do that by competing solely on value. They need to be more creative, and more advanced (not by listing standard features). How do you think Civic grew from CVCC to the car it is today?

    These are people that have the money to spend. My friend is a great example. She can easily afford to buy (not lease) a $50K car. She “settles” for a Civic for its virtues, and in fact, hers is a “Civic family”, a 1999 Coupe and a 2000 sedan. $2K-3K less isn’t enough reason for her to get out of qualities she expects.

    Believe me, I can get in a car with you and point exactly at things I don’t like about other cars, and give you ample reasons. If you haven't figured it out yet, I’m extremely picky, and understand my wants. That would be a reason I lean towards Honda products.
  • But how much faster/quicker does a family car have to be? If the 0-60 in the mid 6 second range and low 90's in the 1/4 mile in addition to a 140+ mph top speed doesn't do it then you should be shopping for a 2 dr 2 passenger car. I love fast but I recognize a "family" car doesn't need to run with a Corvette. Maybe that's just me.
  • Nah, it's not just you. I chose a 4-cyl Honda over a V6 lesser-priced car because of the economy and fact that the 166 horsepower Honda 4 was plenty smooth and powerful for me, smoother than any GM pushrod V6 I've heard or ridden in lately.

    I was just thinking when I read that that the 3.3L in the Sonata is among the lower-end of this pack now (Fusion, Sebring, Sonata, 6); not mind-blowing power to me. Average.

    Average these days is quick though, that's for sure, but as long as economy can go up too, I'll take more power.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,694
    Like you, I am very picky and understand my wants, and needs. Which I why I didn't go for the 2001 Civic a few years ago. And which is why, before I give someone several thousand dollars more of my money than I would give someone else for a similar product, that more expensive product had better be damn good. Not with rattles (as the last Accord I drove had). Not a ride where I could feel every pebble on a smooth suburban street. It needs to be significantly better in several ways, ways that are important to me, before I'll fork over that extra $5 grand or whatever.

    As far as Hyundai being creative... you probably noticed Hyundai caught Honda napping on active safety with the Sonata, getting active headrests and ESC across the lineup 2-1/2 years before the Accord. They also trumped the Accord until just now on interior room--another move that I see Honda has copied on the new Accord. Still haven't caught up in the warranty department, which was another very creative move for Hyundai I think when they introduced it for the 1999 MY.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    you probably noticed Hyundai caught Honda napping on active safety with the Sonata, getting active headrests and ESC across the lineup 2-1/2 years before the Accord.

    Hyundai must have been napping in 03, when I was shopping for a car. I looked at the safety equipment on the 03 Sonata, and it was only 4 star, when the 03 Accord was 5 star. I consider ABS the most important safety feature, because it has saved me from crashes before. The 03 Sonata didn't even have ABS. Heck, my 92 Accord had ABS. Hyundai was asleep for quite a while there (11 years or more). That's more like a coma.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    The '05 Sonata had ABS available (about $600 msrp) and I think the '03 did also. The jury is still out about the effectiveness of stand alone ABS; ABS with ESC is another matter.

    I think the talk of what has happened in the last 2 or 3 years is designed to show just how much Hyundai has improved the Sonata (and other models) in the last few years and is relative to the new cars of today.

    Mentioning what a car offered (as an option or only in the top model?) 15 years ago doesn't really tell us anything about that same car today.
  • The Sonata is a high quality vehicle, you think just because they write Honda Accord you assume that it is better, my first car was 98 Sonata that is why i believe so much in Korean cars in general. They offer what the Japanese don't higher price less features, the Koreans offer more features for less money, I have a 2006 it has 235 hp not 234. Honda still uses timing belts in their V6 engines, while Hyundai uses timing chains Their V6 engines in opinion The Koreans want my business that is why they improved their quality.
  • I was trying to explain the same damn thing to you, i love Hyundai's those are the only common cars i would drive, other than a Leased BMW 325i or a Mercedes C300.
  • The Sonata is a high quality vehicle, you think just because they write Honda Accord you assume that it is better,

    I'd appreciate you not assuming you know how I think or why I did something. Been there, driven that, and the best car for me was the Honda. It had the best balance of ride and handling for me, along with an interior which I perceived as top-notch - a feeling I didn't get in the awkwardly designed interior of the Sonata. The Sonata didn't appeal to me. I'm sorry you have a problem with that.

    As far as the 1 horsepower difference, if we are using the new SAE testing procedures, which all cars must now fall under, then the 3.3L has 234 hp. Under the old standard, it ws 235 hp.

    the Koreans offer more features for less money,

    If all you are after is features for the dollar, then go Korean. As for me, I had standards that the Sonata didn't meet (driving dynamics, interior quality/interior styling) so I didn't choose the car. Saving some $ to buy something I had no desire to own would be a bad buying decision in my eyes.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I think the talk of what has happened in the last 2 or 3 years is designed to show just how much Hyundai has improved the Sonata (and other models) in the last few years and is relative to the new cars of today.

    The 08 Sonata was not out 2 or 3 years ago. If you can talk about the past, so can I.

    I guess we can only talk about past years, if it benefits the Sonata? OK, I get it now. :(
  • I'm a Hyundai fanatic of course im gonna disagree with you that is the way it is, you the same, I love Hyundai's, you love Honda's.
This discussion has been closed.