Subaru Crew - Future Models II

p0926

Rob- I'm not familiar with the Spider's setup. In fact, to show my ignorance, I wasn't even aware that console mounted manual shifters existed ;-)

The console shifters I was denigrating are similar to the ones found on the likes of the Toyota Highlander and its Acura cousin. Which have automatic shifters mounted in "pods" coming out from the dash (that look ridiculous to my eye). It would appear that fitting a manual trans into these vehicles would require serious modification of the existing console along with the design of a new floor console. Way too complicated and expensive in my opinion. Hence my comment about the manufacturers designing out even the possibility of adding a manual trans option to these models in the future.

-Frank P.

qbrozen

ok. thought there was something strange going on.

Here, this might give you a better idea of the style. Even though that still doesn't seem to point towards the driver as much as the Alfa, that basically is the same location.

locke2c

Mike,

I'm no chassis engineer, but if the passenger compartment needs the door frame for structural support it may not be very rigid. If on the other hand you design a car that uses frameless windows, things tend to be more solid.

That's all I was trying to say, and if someone can state it more succinctly I welcome them to.

-Colin

miksmi

I like it! Actually, I'd have to sit in it to adequately render a human factors engineering report. I wonder if the shifter would be a long, awkward reach for those of slight build (read: short). Would the shifter now block the radio instead of the cup holder blocking it..

Also, thanks for the link, Rob.

..Mike

miksmi

barresa62

Your post was pretty friggin' succinct, I would say! No need for improvement. Good job: :-)

Stephen

dsackman

If I recall correctly the old Renault 4 (going back 30 years or more) had an "L" shaped gear lever in the dashboard quite high up, with the long leg of the "L" disappearing into the dsahboard. Changing gears was a push-pull and left-right movement on the short leg of the "L". Very strange it was, even for a French car.

Daniel

ateixeira

So we can conclude that frameless windows SAVE LIVES! Yahoo! ;-)

That Civic Si shifter seems awful high in relation to the steering wheel. That, to me, would be uncomfortable - you'd have to reach out and hold your arm in the air to shift.

The Alfa may be laid out a bit different, and I'm sure it has less legroom so reach is probably not an issue.

-juice

qbrozen

I could see the layout being a problem on a bigger car (and maybe for a .... slighter person ).
Yes, I've found that the Alfa Spider has even less legroom than the Miata (even though the Miata is decent for its size, I still don't comfortably fit for driving over 20 mins. - its like I'm in a go-cart with the Alfa). Which would put you closer to the dash, so that's a good point. I don't know, I guess you'd have to experience it to see for yourself.
Geez. Now I'm going to have to get over to my parents' garage this weekend (the Alfa is ... um ... incapacited right now) and see just how it is I sit in it while driving, then I could better report on it.

How did we get on this subject? I don't even remember. Where am I?

They say the memory is the first to go.

I can't talk about future Subs, I'm still recovering from the whole "Brat" issue. I gotta start throwing the "Brat" name at friends and family to get their reactions. I still can't wait to see it, though. Did we discuss a release date yet?

ateixeira

Never thought I'd hear that. I've modified the seat tracks on the Miata for more comfort, and it's still tight.

I can't wait to see the BRAT on the road, and yes, people's reactions to the name.

-juice

qbrozen

I sat in an '01 at the Philly car show. Seemed to me like it gave me the same legroom as my 626! (which means my knees just rest against the door and the center console.) Don't know if previous models are different or not.

for reference, the steering wheel is basically between my knees in the Alfa.

ateixeira

Oh, yeah, legroom has improved from the earlier models. I have a 1993, which is basically like the original.

I'm probably not as tall as you, but my problem is that the lower cushion offers no thigh support (it's far too short).

The Forester has angle adjustments front and rear, and I found it comfortable angled up towards the steering wheel. So I put spacers under the front track on the Miata to get a similar effect.

It's better, but I'd like another 2" of legroom still.

-juice

amishra

Well I can tell you there's no way on earth I'd buy a vehicle named a BRAT, unless it was some high-tech military toy that could also fly!

rsholland

The intro, according to Patti, will at Detroit next January, with vehicles hitting the road the following October.

Bob

drew_

twrx

one of the things I love about Subaru is that when they decide on something they stick with it. Thus you know something that they first did 20+ years ago is really perfected today. Examples of long running Subaru trademark technologies include turbo, boxers, AWD and of course frameless windows. The Forester I owned for 4 years never had any water leak or noise problems from the frame less windows. Now I have a WRX and in addition to other quality upgrades I have seen on it the doors sound better when closed. What I most like about frame less windows on a 4 door car such as my WRX is that small frameless doors are very light weight. When you are facing up hill they open so much easier!

ateixeira

Guess we'll have to wait until January to see if we'll get any kind of midgate or bed extender option. Let's hope they figure something out.

Just though of something, the B in BRAT was for Bi-Drive, right? That means a low range it a must! Hope so!

I like the frameless windows, too. You also end up with thinner pillars for better visibility. If you disagree, look at Volvo's latest concept - they actually designed little windows in the A-pillar to compensate for their huge blind spots.

-juice

rsholland

Juice, do you remember what the rest of the initials stand for. I used to know, but I can't remember anymore (you know, the geezer effect).

Also, if that's true (regarding the dual range), I wonder if it will come that way with an automatic? To date, Subaru has never offered the dual range with an automatic.

Bob

paisan

I think they offered dual range on ATs before. Not sure, but I'll check on that.

-mike

rsholland

None of the current automatics (in other markets) offer it.

Bob

ateixeira

I'm not sure, but IIRC it was Bi-drive Recreational All Terrain.

Sound right?

So give us a dual range, 200+hp for recreation, and 9" of ground clearance for any terrain.

-juice

paisan

Give us good angles of approach and departure. That was the best part of the stock Isuzu vehicles this past weekend on the trails. Also make the mud flaps on them like the Isuzu ones, that can get flipped up and come back down w/o breaking and they appear to be hard plastic but don't seem to act that way when jumping off a ledge.

-mike

ateixeira

Mine seem rigid. The Aussie Subaru boys recommend removing them because they scoop up sand in the really deep stuff.

-juice

bluesubie

I don't think they'll be much better than the Legacy's, since it is a Legacy. If it gets the higher ground clearance that should make the angles a little better.

My flaps seem rigid too, but I have heard of someone losing theirs in sand. It was an OBS, IIRC.

Dennis

paisan

My dad's legacy ones are stiff and tore one off once. I thought my Trooper ones were the same and thought about taking them off before off-roading this past weekend. I was following a mirror of my truck (color and everything) and he went off a rock and the flap got caught, went up at a 90 degree angle to where it normally sits, then just went back in place! No color fade, no cracking or anything Hopefully I can twist Dennis and/or Juice and/or Patti to come down in Oct.

-mike

ateixeira

They could improve them if the bumpers weren't so elaborate. Tone down the ground effects a bit for function.

Sounds like you guys had fun. October is the due date for my nephew-in-law. When/where is it again?

-juice

paisan

Oct 5-7 Uwharrie National Forrest in Troy, NC.


Yep the bumpers can change the angles a lot. They could totally re-arrange them to give excellent angles of approach/departure.

-mike

ateixeira

Same place again, eh?

I really should have gone up the last time. Didn't you go to some place in PA? How 'bout some place closer. It's much easier for me to sneak out for a day.

-juice

paisan

Pine Barrens kinda suck IMHO, cause the mud there is horrible, and the brush is not soft, it puts pinstripes down the sides.

There is a place out in western PA, but that is more hardcore IIRC.

The cool think about NC is the FL guys come, TN guys and the NE. Like on Sat night we had a huge discussion of the differences in customs from NYC -> Knoxville, TN It was pretty cool.

-mike

ateixeira

Man, don't rub it in. I was at a caroussel!

-juice

paisan

About how I almost got rolled over? Luckily it wasn't my truck!

-mike

ateixeira

Sure, but let's move to Events.

-juice

rsholland

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010723/phm038.html

Bob

ateixeira

$20,095 for a Legacy L sedan with auto. I have to talk to my dad - he'll soon be shopping for a new car for my little sister. Her first, too.

Fitz has a 2001 for $17848. Not bad. She wants a Camry but I'll at least get her to test drive a Subie.

-juice

rsholland

between the Outback 2.5 sedan and the Outback 3.0 sedan. So, when the the H-6 becomes more widely available to other models, this is the kind of price spread we can expect between the H-4 and H-6 models.

Bob

ateixeira

That's $400 less than the Bean adds to the OB Ltd auto wagon ($2400). Good news.

Also, the spread from the Limited to the VDC on the sedan is $4400, while on the wagons it is again $400 bigger ($4800).

Looks like Subaru learned their lesson and priced the sedans very carefully. Too bad I love wagons.

But that makes the cheapest H6 available for $28 grand retail. That should translate to about a $26k street price, maybe even less.

You know? The wife really prefers sedans. Hmmm...tempting. But I'll wait to see what kind of Legacy we get first.

-juice

qbrozen

$28K for the cheapest H6??! That's a bit on the steep side. Granted, it has a good deal of the luxury ammenities like auto climate control, leather trim, power seat, power moonroof, etc. But, I'd rather be able to give some of those things up to save some money. How about a manual transmission? I guess that's not even a thought, huh? Oh well, guess there is no H6 in my near future.

rsholland

We're all in agreement on an entry-level H-6, especially hooked up to a manual tranny.

Bob

paisan

$28k isn't bad, which translates to about 25-26K tops out the door. You have to think about it this way, is the AWD and H6 and VTD worth that much to you? If I were shopping right now, I'd probably not go for it, but that's cause I haven't had a chance to drive it yet. I haven't heard any glowing responses about the H6 being a quick car. Only time will tell.

-mike

ateixeira

My choice would be a base Outback, AWP, moonroof and H6 + manual as stand-alone options.

Or, a base GT wagon with heated seats, a manual and hopefully a turbo engine.

The $28k (retail, which almost no Subaru buyers pay) sedan has the H6 but not the VTD. It's basically the equivalent of the LL Bean minus the wagon and the logos.

-juice

miksmi

Hmm, the All-Weather Package (dual mode heated front seats, heated exterior mirrors and windshield wiper de-icer) is available on the GT Limited sedan; since there is no GT Ltd wagon, the wagons don't get the AWP option. Too bad (not that I need these in DC but I'd like to have the opportunity to torment myself making a decision). Floormats are now standard on the GT and GT Limited.

..Mike

qbrozen

that's because the H6, hooked up to an auto tranny, and put in a 3700 lb. vehicle ISN'T quick. Hence the desire for a manual (which I believe would still only bring it into the high 7 secs. 0-60 at best - but that ain't bad for the type of vehicle you get).

paisan

The AT should be revised. AT is the way to go if you want wide spread sales in this country. A manumatic would also be nice. I drove my uncles 3.2tls last night with the 5 speed manumatic, and it's nice it's heavy and it's fast Albeit he has 260hp and VTech but it's also well over $30K.

-mike

ateixeira

Mike: so still no heated seats on the GT wagon! :-(

-juice

drew_

Topic: July 24th: "What is the stupidest thing you've seen someone do while driving?"

p0926

Manumatics, what's the point? Give me a real manual transmission any day and don't waste time designing something for drivers who just want to pretend like they're driving a manual.

-Frank P.

paisan

Frank, that's fine for you, but you have to realize that the market generally is:

1) Car nuts, these people will be buying performance cars, and want MTs. Manufacturers will give them this

2) Non-car nuts, these are about 95% of the public, they want an AT cause they hit the gas and it brings them to the golf club, the pool club, the market, etc. Some of these people want performance, but aren't car nuts, they will want a manumatic.

Have you ever driven one of the manumatics? I think you'd be pleasantly suprised with it's perfromance.

-mike

ateixeira

Depends on the tuning.

Volvo's and VW's are so slow as to be useless. They shift faster by themselves.

Lexus has it right in the IS300, with quick authoritative shifts, but they still do not let you choose 1st gear (only 1-2). BMW's is also good.

But what about a CVT like Audi's? Check out the new A6 review - they really like it. Imagine a tranny that can keep your engine at peak torque almost all the time, resulting in quicker acceleration, yet get better mileage (in both cases compared to a manual).

There is less involvement, I guess, but if the results are that positive, I'll take it. I wonder what the option will cost.

Also, they really have to figure out how to package it with Quattro. I imagine a FWD CVT will have torque steer problems exacerbated.

-juice

p0926

mike- Yes actually. I recently rented a Mitsu Eclipse for a week and it was equipped with a manumatic. After about 15 minutes, I was saying to myself "what's the point?" After that I just left it in auto mode. I suspect that the vast majority of manumatic owners do the same. I.e. play with it when they first buy the car but then seldom, if ever, use it again.

I'll agree with you that it's a marketing tool, but one that's designed to sell the image of performance rather than the real thing.

-Frank P.

armac13

In my younger days I would have agreed with you 100%. Now in my 50's I have my first automatic. Why? A bad set of knees, osteoarthritis and driving mainly in the city. I often miss the responsiveness and added control of a manual transmission, but rarely miss the pain associated with constant clutch use. Having tried the MB "manumatic" or whatever they call it, I think that it would be a very adequate replacement for a "real transmission". My $.015 US.

Ross