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Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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Comments

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,676
    By the way, we just aded a 2012 VW GTI 6-Speed Manual to our stable yesterday. The thing's a little pocket rocket to be sure.

    VERY nice! I'm envious.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • Actually, both the 5W-20 Castrol Edge and the Mobile 1 Extended Performance 5W-20 oil meet the "WSS-M2C930-A" Ford Spec. Both would also be excellent for a 2003 Lincoln Navigator, as well as, the 5W-20 Castrol Syntec.

    The 2011 Ford Taurus Owner's Manual is a bit ambiguous regarding the type of oil to use (i.e. Full Synthetic, Semi-Synthetic, etc). The manual calls for both.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,526
    When an oil does meet the O.E. spec it will say so on the back of the bottle.

    Here is a Castrol Syntec pdf.

    http://www.bp.com/assets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/do- wnloads/p,q/pds_syntec_usa.pdf

    Here is information on Castrol Edge

    http://www.bp.com/assets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/do- wnloads/f/Castrol_EDGE_FAQ.pdf

    We can do this with every manufacturer and in fact we really need to today in order to understand what is really required to choose the correct oil for any one car.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,526
    There are a number of articles on this site. Take this one here.

    http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/oil-life-monitoring-systems.html

    If you really start studying the topic, and then read that article and watch the videos associated to it you'll notice that they don't even get all of the details straight. Some information is better than none, but when some of it isn't accurate even if it's only by omission that's a problem!
  • Thank you for the feedback. I did more in-depth research three days ago.

    Lastly, by simply looking on the back of the bottle, I saw that Castrol GTX 5w-20, Castrol Edge w/ Syntec and Castrol Edge with FST (Titanium) ALL meet the "WSS" Ford OEM spec number for the 2011 Ford Taurus SEL.

    I used the Castrol GTX 5W-20 during my 2011 Ford Taurus's first 4500, plus, miles (changing oil/filter every 1200 miles) to keep clean oil and filter in the egine to preclude possible "beak-in" issues. I am now using the Castrol 5W-20 Edge, FST Titanium Advanced Full Synthetic oil. I will also use the same in my 2003 Lincoln Navigator.

    As for Mobile 1 5W-20, although a good oil, on the back of this oil bottle and the Mobil 1 Extended Performance bottle it states that Mobil 1 "recommends" use of the oil for meeting Ford's OEM "WSS" spec number for the 2011 Ford Taurus SEL. However, Mobile does not claim that the oil "meets" or "exceeds" the Ford OEM "WSS" spec number.... sort of a "play on words."

    So.... If an oil company cannot or will not state, CLEARLY, that its oil(s) "meet" or "exeed" a manufactuer's specifications, I will not use the oil. As stated in the web links you sent, oil mixtures are in transition to meet the new standards of OEM manufactuers. Mobile may be waiting to see if their oils will later, in fact, "meet" or "exceed" Ford's "WSS" OEM spec requirements.
  • Thank you for the feedback. My 2011 Taurus SEL owner's manual calls for 5,000 mile oil/filter change if the "oil monitoring system" should ever stop working.

    I changed the oil and OEM (Motorcraft) filter, refilling with Castrol 5W-20 Edge Titanium FST (gold colored jug)... 5.5 quart capacity w/ filter change (Motorcraft FL-500-S). With 100 miles on the new oil the 'oil monitoring system' shows 99% oil life remaining from about 90% highway driving (62 - 65 MPH). At this mileage rate and current driving conditions, this should register 50% oil life remaining at approximately 7,000 - 7,500 miles. With this in mind, the "pint" size (small) OEM Motorcraft filter may not adequately filter the oil passed the 5,000 mile mark!

    Ford and other automakers who now have concluded that "Full Synthetic" and/or "Semi-Synthetic" oil is synomous for today's engine libricant they should also redisign their oil filters... mainly increasing the filter volume!!! I am amazed that Ford and many other automakers have not INCREASED the size of their "pint size" small oil filters!

    For now, I think I will go with a 5 month/5,000 mile oil/filter change using 5W/20 Castrol Edge Titanium FST full synthetic oil. Should I find a larger oil filter, different from the Motorcraft OEM brand, that will not compromise my "new car warranty" then I will consider 6,000 - 7,000 miles before changing the oil and filter. (Mobile 1 oil filter might be a consideration.)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,526
    DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner!!!!

    Ford and other automakers who now have concluded that "Full Synthetic" and/or "Semi-Synthetic" oil is synomous for today's engine libricant they should also redisign their oil filters... mainly increasing the filter volume!!! I am amazed that Ford and many other automakers have not INCREASED the size of their "pint size" small oil filters!

    Filter size and volume play a significant role in setting a manufacturers service intervals! It doesn't matter what oil you choose, or what any lab testing of your oil states after the fact. If the filters life is exceeded your not doing your engine any good at all!
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,676
    It doesn't matter what oil you choose, or what any lab testing of your oil states after the fact.

    Let me get this straight; are you saying that a good UOA is not indicative of the efficiency/longevity of the oil filter?
    I guess I should tell Blackstone that they no longer need to test for insolubles...

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Filter size and volume play a significant role in setting a manufacturers service intervals! It doesn't matter what oil you choose, or what any lab testing of your oil states after the fact. If the filters life is exceeded your not doing your engine any good at all!

    Unless someone is running junk oil and doesn't change it for twenty thousand miles or more (or if the engine is already in rough shape), it is phylically impossible to "exceed the life of the filter".
  • Hmmm... Interesting thought. However, I personally would not agree that filter size and volume do not matter.

    The Ford Motorcraft filter FL-500-S is small... very small.... much like the size filter found on a Honda Valkyrie. (I used to own a Valkyrie.)

    Mobile 1 is good oil, along with their Mobile 1 Extended Performance oil. Now, with this said, Ford recommends changing the oil/filter at 5,000 miles should the "oil monitor" system stop working. This recommendation is made along with use of full or semi-synthetic oil. Wonder why Ford would recommend doing that using the motorcycle size OEM filter?

    So, if all agree that Mobile is a good brand of oil, why is it that the Mibile 1 filter for the Ford Taurus is larger... more the size of many car or truck filters?
    Obviously, size (volume) does matter for good filtering IF you take changing the oil further than what the OEM filter recommendation shows. In my case, that would be about 5,000 to 6,000 miles for my Taurus using the Motorcrat FL-500-S filter.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,526
    edited November 2011
    Let me get this straight; are you saying that a good UOA is not indicative of the efficiency/longevity of the oil filter?

    Every oil analysis I have ever sent out has come back with levels exceeding normal amounts of wear, much of which is typically aggravated by the bypass valve in the filter (or the block in some cases) as having been forced open when the filter became too heavily loaded and therefore unfiltered oil was circulating. In otherwords, it was already too late for that consumer and their engine.

    When a customers car comes in the door with no oil showing on the dipstick and subsequently getting to watch maybe two quarts draining from the pan and even with it being warm/hot it's still clearly thicker than what is supposed to be in there, exactly how does an oil analysis tell anything that experience hasn't already observed? Then bump the bill up another $25 for that customer? In a perfect world we could do that, but you have to recognize how that consumer is likely to react to any additional expense beyond what they think an oil change should cost. Now maybe if Blackstone would do this for free....(sarc)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,526
    Unless someone is running junk oil and doesn't change it for twenty thousand miles or more (or if the engine is already in rough shape), it is phylically impossible to "exceed the life of the filter".

    Not true, not true at all and that's why the systems have bypass valves to allow unfiltered oil to flow in the event the filter becomes too restricted. In fact it only takes a small pressure differential to open the bypass valve, and high rpm combined with normal filter loading can routinely allow oil to bypass.
  • Each to his (or her) own....

    I traded a 1986 Ford Bronco II (bught new) for the 2011 Ford Taurus that I have now. Following Ford's service recommendations, using Castrol 10W30 GTX "dino" and Motorcraft FL-1A filter the engine had 254,000 miles, plus, and was still running strong AFTER 25 years of good service. The ONLY reason why I traded was due to the rear axles leaking oil. Ford no longer offered the axles. The aftermarket supplier had a back order on the axles. So, I traded. The Bronco was my "daily driver."

    Too bad Ford does not recommend a Motorcraft filter for the 2011 Ford Taurus the size of the FL-1A filter!!! I really DO NOT like the small FL-500-S Motorcraft filter; hence, no more than 5000 to maybe 6000 mile/ 5-6 months intervals for me.

    Hope everyone had a Happy Thanksgiving!
  • For clarification to my last post, I am using Castrol 5W-20 Edge, Advanced Full Synthetic Titanium oil w/ FST for my Taurus. I would never take "dino" oil and filter further than 3 - 4 months or 3,000 - 4,000 miles.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    edited November 2011
    The presence of a bypass valve and the activation of said valve are two very different issues. Per a study done by GM in the late 1990s (which I read while I was at Mercedes), the only oil change (on a healthy engine) where the filter has a chance of becoming clogged to the point of activating the bypass valve is the very first following engine manufacture. Given how high the manufacturing tolerances have become since then, my bet is that even the first oil change interval is no longer sufficient to cause enough particulate matter to be trapped in the filter element to cause bypass activation.

    So, why bother including a bypass at all? Once again per the GM study; the bypass valve is routinely activated when the oil temperatures are extremely cold following a cold start (and varies by oil temperature, oil type, and age of filter). Once the oil starts warming up the valve closes and the oil once again flows through the filter element. Given the oil flowing through the bypass is already well filtered, a few minutes of unfiltered flow is completely irrelevant in regards to long term engine life.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,375
    edited November 2011
    Shipo and others?

    I have a 2008 Cobalt with 35000 miles. The oil has been in for 1 year and 3,000 miles. The oil is Pennzoil Platinum synthetic 5w-30 and the filter is a PureOne filter.

    Should I change the filter or just put in fresh oil--GM requires oil change every 1 year.

    Most driving was 80 mile trips on interstate and 6 mile commutes to his job downtown Columbus. Very little was short trip driving.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,647
    I'd change the filter, too, just to simplify my life. No need to remember any details, oil and filter once/year. If you're going through a change anyway, might as well do the filter for small additional time/cost.

    As for Ford's 5000 mile recommendation if the OLM fails, it's by necessity a VERY conservative recommendation, suitable for all driving types, including lots of short trips. It doesn't reflect the normal expected life under 'regular duty' conditions.
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,676
    I'd run Pennzoil Platinum(or any other quality synthetic) for 2 years if warranty coverage wasn't a concern. That's what I do with my Jeep Wrangler.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,676
    Every oil analysis I have ever sent out has come back with levels exceeding normal amounts of wear, much of which is typically aggravated by the bypass valve in the filter (or the block in some cases) as having been forced open when the filter became too heavily loaded and therefore unfiltered oil was circulating.

    That has been the exact opposite of my experience, but then I maintain all my vehicles to a high standard.

    When a customers car comes in the door with no oil showing on the dipstick and subsequently getting to watch maybe two quarts draining from the pan and even with it being warm/hot it's still clearly thicker than what is supposed to be in there, exactly how does an oil analysis tell anything that experience hasn't already observed?

    If you are dealing with the typical moronic car owner on a daily basis -fortunately I don't have to- then I would agree. However, that situation is entirely different from the case of a conscientious owner who wants to monitor the mechanical health of his/her car's engine and wants to determine an optimum OCI.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Change it. Why? Unless I miss my guess, you're still in the warranty period.
  • stvtom1stvtom1 Posts: 1
    I have heard that the compression fittings that leak can be cut off and the hoses repaired with compression clamps. Any one have any thoughts on this?
    Thanks
    Stvtom1
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,647
    edited April 2012
    Whatever you're clamping the hose onto has to have some kind of bump or 'barb' to hold the hose on with the clamp. Just clamping the hose onto a straight tube isn't a good idea.
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