Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

jed1894

thanks for information....

arjay1

I agree on the switch to synthetic. I have heard it both ways regarding the switch, do it now or need to wait.
From what I have been told that seems to make sence is to leave the original oil in the full period that the manufacturer recommends and than switch to synthetic if you want.
My dealer was very comfortable switching to synthetic at 5M and said that they do that for many of the 1.8t Passats. The dealership uses Castrol synthetic but I supplied my own Mobil 1. They were going to charge me $30 bucks for the synthetic, it was cheaper to provide my own.

jed1894

I too use mobil 1 (in truck), however I think Castrol runs a close race....

JOHn

viggy

I just purchased a 2000 intrigue, 18k miles. Love the motor. but it sounds like it starts dry!! i have been reading On synths, Mobile1, Valvoline, Castrol. Looking for opinions???? I drive a good mix of Highway and city. Hoping to solve dry starts, make engine go 100k+. I drive 27 to 40k yr. any help appreciated.

arjay1

They say the benefit of synthetic is the quick lubrication when the engine is cold (dry starts).
I don't know if one brand is better than the other. The only reason I use Mobil 1 is that it is a true synthetic. I has been addressed before. Castrol and some of the others use a base stock that is actually a petroleum product, but then it is chemically altered so much that they can legally claim it is synthetic. Mobil 1 uses a true synthetic base stock. Does this make a difference? Probably not! But since they basically cost the same, I go with the Mobil 1.
I am still not convinced that synthetic is needed by everyone when compared to a good regular oil. I only switched because of towing with our minivan and also having the turbocharged engine in my Passat.

armtdm

If you live in a cold climate, say below 20 degrees F when you start the engine you may benefit from the synthetic in getting the oil up there sooner. Some engines are just loud until they warm up. Mobil 1 and Amsoil both make a 0W30 synthetic that protects the same as a 5w or 10W but gets the oil up there sooner for cold starts. My ole Corsica with a pushrod engine sounds like a diesel tank until it warms up but it is not from lack of oil.

syjet1

Does anyone know if Amsoil synthetic oil is for real. Amsoil states you can go 25K between oil changes, you only need to change the filter every 3-5k. The stuff goes for about 6 dollars a quart which is a pretty good price if it really lasted that long. 25K is a long time for anything to stay in your engine which scars me. Does anyone have an opinion on this product?

Jim

sniffy

seems like one of things that seems good to be true ...but from what i've heard and read, the 25k/1 yr oil change claimed by amsoil seems to be true, based on tests.
but then again ...i'm scared to have oil sitting in there for that long.
amsoil also has an XL series synthetic oil thats supposed to last 10k/6months ...that seems more reasonable ... but then the top line synthetic is available for only 30cents more per quart, when i saw prices last (their price went up on oct 1)

i use mobil 1 (since its easy to get) and change my oil &filter every 5000miles/5months ...thats what my mfg recommends (1999 mazda protege)

spali

Has anyone heard of an industry standard? My dealer tells me that burning 1 quart of oil per 1000 miles is "acceptable" (industry standard). Ever heard this?
Thanks

sniffy

never heard of an industry standard for oil consumption ...i use mobil1 and dont burn any oil between oil changes (5k/5months)
maybe that should be the standard

syjet1

What brand of oil filter do you use? Thanks.

sniffy

upto now i've been using the mfg oem filter since i get my servicing done thru the dealer ...but i plan on changing that and start doing my own oil changes ...i've already got a mobil1 filter sitting in my drawer.

armtdm

Most owner's manuals and dealers will say 1 quart in 1,000 miles is not excessive but then, they are just looking for an out so they do not have to make repairs. New cars, I look for 1/2 quart in 7,500 miles

syjet1

Thanks for the info, one more question. Are you familiar with Amsoil’s by-pass filter? From what they are saying it sounds like great-added protection or is it just a waste of money.

Jim

armtdm

The bypass filter is truly a bypass, attachment screws on to your normal filter housing but a separate line goes to the bypass and you keep the regular spin on as well. It is supposed to syphon off a very small amount of oil for a very fine cleaning, down to 1 micron I believe and also take out water in the system. With this they claim almost unlimited mileage between changes. Problem is, for cars, very little space under the hood to mount it, most users are big diesels and other trucks. I would love to try it but where to put it???

kblau

Does anyone know for sure if synthetic oil smokes when it burns? I have a Civic that will lose about 1 quart every 2 weeks. I can't find a leak, but it doesn't smoke at all. I haven't taken it to the dealer yet, just been adding oil regularly. I've used synthetic oil since I bought it new in '96, it has 65,000 miles. Has anyone had this kind of trouble from synthetic oil?

jed1894

Which brand of oil are you using? I don't know the answer to your question.

armtdm

Synthetic does smokle. If your problem started relatively quickly there is something seriously worng that should be correctable. At 65,000 miles you should not be using a quart every two weeks so I would get it to a mechanic to check out.

yurakm

The car manuals recommend different grades of oil for different cars and different temperature. The optimal oils are 10W-30 for the 3.8l GM engine (Buick Regal), and 5W-30 for the 3.1l (Chevy Malibu).

For the both cars it is advisable to switch to higher viscosity 10W-30 for hot weather, to lower 5W-30 for cold winter, and to either 0W-30 or synthetic 5W-30 for very cold season (not relevant in Connecticut, but, probably, very important in MN, ND or Canada).

My understanding is, that the first number (10, 5 or 0) show the oil viscosity at some standard temperature when the engine is cold, while the second number (30) when it became hot. The lower the temperature, the less liquid the oil became, and the low viscosity grade compensates for this.

But does it mean the too good viscosity hurts when starting engine? Why does not GM recommend, for example, 0W-30 for all cases? Even more, than both Amsoil and Mobil wrote on their WWW sites, that the 0W-30 oil can be used when the manufacturer recommends 5W-30 or 10W-30.


It would be more convenient to buy just one oil, be it 5W-30 or 0W-30, for the both cars and all seasons. Even more than the price is the same.

yurakm

This continues from the Impala board at

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/engaged/edmund.cgi?&f=0&c=Sedans&t=3949&q=613-615


I live in Hamden, CT. There is a huge Pep Boys auto parts shop near our home and supermarkets. Naturally, I am buying everything here.

The Pep Boys are not selling the Mobil filter. They are selling, though, AC Delco, Purolator, Fram and their own brand.

There are three sub-brands of Delco filters. The base, the better one (more expensive), and ultra. The ultra one costs about $10. I guess that the OEM Delco filter, as from factory or used by GM dealers, is the cheapest one.

The Purolator filters also have different grades / prices / quality. The best one are branded Pure One. Less expensive than the best Delco, about $6 as well as I remember.

The both filter's packages are claiming to be the very best in filtration of smaller particles. Delco with the standard tests, Pure One with the repetitive, multipass tests.

I believe the both filters are much better than the standard ones. Important with the longer change intervals, e.g with the synthetic oil. Probably, the difference between the brands of quality filters is less important.


All three grades of the Mobil 1 oil for cars - 0W-30, 5W-30 and 10W-30 - are available at the Pep Boys. Several other brands of syntetic are available too. The three grades, and the Valvoline brand, are all going for the same higher price: $4.49 a quart, plus tax.

jed1894

Can you explain your answer about Syn. oil smoking.


JOhn

armtdm

Petroleum oil emits a blue smoke when burned heavily in a worn engine or worn parts of an engine. Synthetic oil will also smoke when burned in a worn engine. I believe my reply was that if he started to use that much oil over a short period of time that it was probably not due to a worn engine, that usually occurs over many years.

spali

Thanks for the input on oil consumption. VW is definitely sticking to their story with 1 qt of oil per 1000 miles. For a new car, you say 1/2 qt per 7,500 miles? I had my first oil change at 1,500 miles. Then my oil light came on at 4000 miles. I had to add FOUR QUARTS of oil. Basically, my NEW Jetta has been burning an average 1 quart of oil per 1000 miles. I have filed a complaint with the BBB, but I'm trying to get as much info as possible to possibly persue Lemon Law. Thanks again. I appreciate any advice you can give on oil consumption.

jed1894

Holy cow! Four quarts at 4000 miles! That cannot be normal.

To give you a comparison....I'm at about 4200 miles on my new VW (Passat V6) and had to add about 1/4 quart the other day. I don't know where it started by the dealer for sure because I did not check the oil until about 3500 miles. If they started it at the correct level, then it used 1/4 quart in 3500 miles. I would consider that normal for new engine, but if it continues to drink oil at that rate after break-in, I will have a problem with that.

JOhn

bblaha

WHAT!!!!?????!!!!!

1 qt per 1000 miles !!!???!!!!

Normal!!!!????!!!!!!

Uh uh. No way. When you say VW is sticking to that, I assume you mean VW the dealer? Not VW the company? The Jetta only holds 4.8 qts! Since most people aren't going to bother to get a change before 3k (and some not even that soon) Jettas all over would soon be running dry.

Your dealer just doesn't want to fix your problem. Contact VW corporate and let them know you've been told 1 qt/1k miles is "normal" and that before you contact Consumer Reports with this useful bit of information you wanted to inquire if its actually true.

syjet1

Does the W as in 5w-30 stand for Weight or Winter?

Jim

yurakm

For winter.

armtdm

The problem with the VW dealer and most are that in the Owner's Manual it usually states that 1 quyart per 1,000 miles is not excessive and they point to that when saying nothing is wrong.

spali

I have talked directly with VW manufacturer and they have told me the same (industry standard is 1 qt/1000). Basically, I have 20K on my engine now, and I've added about 20 qts (outside of oil changes). Thanks guys for your input. You've convinced me to pursue Lemon Law, where I think I'll get more justice than with the mediation/arbitration line set up by VW!

Cheers

arjay1

There have been other people on the boards before that have been told by different manufacturers that 1 quart per 1000 miles is considered normal consumption.
I don't know what kind of recourse you would have is this is what the manufacturer states. I know that I sure would be pi$$ed if it was me though. I feel sorry for you.

steve234

If I remember right, GM considers that 500 miles per quart is acceptable. Unfortuneately, unless you can prove that the vehicle is defective in some way, the oil consumption is legally acceptable because of the manual.
All engines use oil, it just depends on luck sometimes, how much. An improper break-in can sometimes increase oil consumption. Often it is caused by microscopic scratches in the piston rings or cylinder walls, or a bad match of rings in a cylinder.

queenbee1

Has anyone ever come across this grade of motor oil before and if so, who makes it and where can I find it? The problem I'm having is that I've just purchased a Mazda Tribute and the owners manual says that I have to use 5w-20 oil. I can't find that grade anywhere. Motorcraft markets the oil but I would like to find another company that's cheaper. I just paid almost $17 for two oil filters for my Tribute. I figure that if the filters are that much, the oil will go for a premium price also. The parts mgr. at the dealership said that they had a hard time finding it also. Geez....what a pain. If this is the way Mazda is going to do things....I think I just might go ahead and try synthetic oil after all.

If I do go to synthetic....what grade would be a substitute for 5w-20?

Thanks for any help or advice you can send my way!

dhoff

I've never heard of 5W-20 before. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it sounds strange to me.

Do you think it is possible that your owner's manual has a misprint? Almost every new car uses 5W-30 these days.

If you can't find the 5W20, or it's really expensive, I think 5W30 would be just as good. The same basic engine in your Tribute is used in the Ford Contour and Mazda MPV. I don't know this for sure, but I'd bet they recommend 5W-30.

If you want to spend a bit less on oil filters, you don't have to use the factory ones. There is an entire topic dedicated to oil filters. The consensus there seems to be that there are several aftermarket manufacturers that make good filters, and one to stay away from.

Dave

queenbee1

Thanks Dave for the info. Right now, since the Tribute is so new, there aren't any after-market filters available as yet. It might take 6 months to a year before they're available.

It's my feeling too that 5w30 would be alright to use. I have my sales guy checking on it and he's suppose to get back to me when he gets the info.

Anybody else have any insights,knowledge or experience to share? I would really appreciate it.
Thanks

silvercoupe

Does your owners manual list other weights of oil that are acceptable? I would think that 5W30 would be fine. My Accord calls for 5W30, but the manual states that 10W30 is okay above 20 degrees F. I'm in Alabama, and the local Honda dealers all use Castrol 10W30 year round.

If the manual says only 5W20, then that is what I would use, though.

$17 for 2 OEM filters is not too bad. I just paid $8.50 for a Honda motorcycle filter, and it is not even the spin on type!!! I get Honda filters for my cars 3 for $15. But they are $7.50 each if bought singly.

tboner1965

The engine in the Mazda is a Ford Duratec, so there is a good chance there is a Motorcraft filter there. Might even be the FL-820S (that is what the 2.5L Duratec uses, but the 3.0 might be different.

And yes, that is correct 5W-20. We've discussed it a bit on www.contour.org

I can get my Motorcraft filters for both our MPV and Contour for about $4-$5/each at Advanced Auto Parts. They seem to be the same as the Purolator PureOne, for a bit less money.

Cheers,

TB

tboner1965

Go out and look at the filter and see if it has a Motorcraft number on it.

Our Mazda MPV came from the factory with a Motorcraft filter.

I suggested to many an MPV owner to wager free oil changes with the service manager at the Mazda dealership over the filter. Bet the service manager that there is no special Mazda filter for the MPV or Tribute. If there is, you'll buy an oil change from them. If they use a Motorcraft filter, he gives you a free oil change.

This is especially effective after the service manager has already told you there is a special filter. Just asking them to put their money where their mouth is, is sometimes fun.

Of course, if the service manager lied to you then, I'm not sure I'd want them working on my vehicle.

Cheers,

TB

mwikle

I think 5W-20 is one of the proposed "new" multivis grades to be commonly used under the new GF-3/next API level PCMO (pass car motor oil) standards.

Methinks Ford is "jumping ahead" by a few months, as oil industry appoval of the new oil standard was delayed by a mix of technical and business considerations from what automakers wanted. I dunno, might have wanted this viscosity grade even if rest of oil is GF-2 stuff.

Speculation on my part, tho', but I do work for the Lubricants group of a major oil Co.

I'd just use 5W30 and not worry at all...TB is right, I'd wager the filter is an FL820S (Mopar), which we think is a Purolator with "PureONE" filter media innards (in other words a very good filter...). My mpv was not listed in the books, so I just crawled under it and there was the Cleveland FoMoCo engine with a USA filter on it, sent back by way of Hiroshima mazada plant! (but Tributes are U.S. made. but mostly Mazda Japan Engineered I hear...

Merritt

dhoff

Wow, this is all news to me. Never heard of 5w20 before.

I'm guessing that it takes more additivevs to get the viscosity range of 5w-30, so it's possible 5w20 may be a better lubricant. But, aren't the manufacturers specifying it for fuel economy reasons?

So, Merrit, which is "better", 5w20 or 5w30?

Dave

armtdm

The 20 weight part of it is what scares me. the manufacturers are more concerned with meeting the mpg rules then long term protection. When the 5W30 came out it was generally agreed it did not protect as well as a 10W30 but was used to increase the mpg. Just another reason to use synthetic oil!

silvercoupe

Just read in one of the Accord forums that some of the 2001 Hondas call for 5W20 weight oil. I have yet to see this weight at any parts stores or Wal Mart. Wonder if some of the automobile mfgs. are jumping the gun on this???

bblaha

How can 5w-20 improve mileage but be a lesser performing lubricant?

carnut30

...always improves mileage (MPG), but under heavy loads and heat might not protect against wear as well as 5W-30. Both SAAB and Subaru stuck with 10W-30 into the 1990s for their high-output engines.

mwikle

Generally, the "best" vis is the one recommended by the OEM.

They understand things like bearing design, stress loads, and oil passage flows under operation. I do not think, given litigation in our fine society as well as consumer oversight and competitive pressures, they would release a less durable engine and risk brand reputation...That's my opinion only...

Yes, an SAE 30 makes a heavier film than a 20 weight, but so does a 40 or 50 ...only the OEM can say what optimal upper vis limit is based on ENGINEERING and TESTS. Film strength is only an issue if it fails, so I'd bet 20 weight did fine in tests...failed films show quickly in used oil tests and teardown inspections...

A 5-20 has less VI (vis index improver) so some would say that is a "good" thing...it will shear less than a 5W-30, so not all is bad with the change.

bblaha

carnut30:

Sorry, I can't fully accept that. I'm by no means a lubrication expert, but it seems to me the only place a lower viscosity will improve MPG is from oil pump losses (its much easier for the oil pump to move low viscosity fluid through all the passages - and I can't believe the head loss is all that big). Decreased wear and improved fuel economy ought to go hand in hand, since both are inversely proportional to friction.

Whatever operating temperature the engine is designed for ought to drive the lubricant selection. If 5w20 gives better mileage it seems illogical to be at the expense of increased friction.

khefner

I have been taking my 1999 Chevrolet to the dealer for the past year for oil changes. I would like to start doing them myself as I have been doing with my previous cars. Any recommendations for oil? Viscoscity? Synthetic? Filter? Does anyone know of any unusual tools needed for this job? I live in NY so the climate is not to severe but the car does go through ALOT of short trips, 2 to 3 miles. Thanks for your input.
Kevin

bnormann

Guess what happens when you take a journal bearing designed to operate with 20W and use 30W instead. The oil heats up and thins out,it is a self balancing mechanism. This extra heat is where the mileage gain comes from, heat = wasted energy. It's obviously not as simple as this, and I agree that manufacturers are more interested in their CAFE numbers than long term reliability.....

armtdm

99 Chevy, owners manual probably states a 5W30 or 10W30. First, definitely a synthetic. If in upstate NY (damn cold) I would go with the 5W30 or 0W30. Only Mobil 1 or Amsoil makes the 0W30 so not much choice there. If in the NYC area I would go with the 5W30 and you could add RedLine synthetic to the above list of oils. Filters, I like Mobil 1, Pure One or Amsoil/Hastings. Definitely stay away from Frams, Quaker State, Pennzoils, Store Brands, etc. Pure One is a higher quality then Purolator.

khefner

Yes I live in Upstate NY so the 5W-30 would probably be best for winter. I will consult the manual. How about the GM filters quality? What is wrong with the FRAM,Quaker State etc filters?
Thanks

armtdm

Extremely poor quality, for the most part you get what you pay for. Most filters are made by only a handfull of companies under differemt specs. Many studies have noted frams poor quality in drain back valve construction, paper density, number of
pleats etc. Quaker State filters, Pennzoil and store brands have been rated similar. AC Delco good, Motorcraft too but off the shelf you cannot beat a Mobil 1 or a Pure One (made by Purolator but different higher quality filter)