Buying Luxury used cars

hpmctorque

Only a fool or someone who's insanely rich would buy, or even lease, a car that's virtually unfixable today, or one where the cost of repairs and maintenance are unjustifiable.

I look for sales of high end cars to remain depressed for a long time to come, as Americans increase their savings rate over the next several years. Also, credit will probably loosen up, but it's highly unlikely to be as readily available as it was in recent years.

Times have changed. Near luxury ($29,900-$39,900) is the new mid luxury ($40,000-$59,900), and mid luxury is the new high end.

Mr_Shiftright

Bingo, gold star for you. The cars that were considered "luxurious" in the 1980s have options that are now commonplace on far less expensive cars.

Used luxury cars, unless they are extremely rare, will NEVER bring big bucks because of this repairability issue.

Let's face it, if a 25-30 year-old luxury car can't even bring $5,000 today, it's not ever going to be valuable. It's had enough time to start to appreciate.

It's about time to let go of that 1980 Blimp-mobile you've been hoarding, insuring and repairing for 30 years. There is no gold at the end of that rainbow.

Ditto a 1990 Lexus LS400 and ditto a 200X BMW 7 series or MB luxury sedan.

As for luxury coupes and ragtops, well the scenario may or may not be different. Certainly a 1980 Mercedes 450SL or SLC hasn't moved very much in price these past ten years (if at all), and all 90s coupes and convertibles are behaving like used cars, depreciating every year.

There may be a few rare, specialty-built luxury cars that will remain valuable.

"Investment" aside, you have to be the very opposite of risk-averse to buy one of these out of warranty.

I just can't imagine, with these cars using their multi-plexing circuitry, containing over 75 microprocessors, that even the cleverest of computer gurus is going to go in "cold" and fix a very glitchy wiring harness, unless they have a complete set of schematics, lots and lots of time, and your blank check in hand.

hpmctorque

All the points you made conspire to increase depreciation, and, therefore, the cost of ownership, which is why I feel that sales of new high end cars, especially sedans, will remain under pressure for many years. The days when used Cadillacs and Mercedes' held their value well (the '50s-mid '60s, and the '70s and '80s, respectively) won't return. So, yeah, the way to go with used luxury cars is to buy a well maintained one, drive it for 5,000 - 10,000 miles, then sell it while (fingers crossed) it's still intact.

Mr_Shiftright

It's a crap shoot. If say you buy a 1998 Mercedes S600, you'd think that the engine control module was very $$$, like a Jaguar, but it's not. It's cheap!

But then if your brake fluid motor and pump go out (just a little light on the dashboard as you're driving home), that's $2,300 bucks. Ouch!

If you lose the transmission, which can certainly happen on a higher mileage car, that's $5,600 bucks. This is on a $10,000 car.

I guess you could argue that lots of used cars have transmissions that cost 1/2 the value of the car, but you know with a Taurus or a Corolla you can fix it a lot cheaper or buy a used unit.

fintail

I am sure any MB repair shop would be thrilled if you pulled up in this baby...time to buy a new boat!

fintail

I think there will always be enough posers out there to snap up high maintenance barges when they hit the market. There are always fools around who know the average dope on the street can't tell a 2001 lux boat from a new one, so it becomes time to put on appearances.

People will realize the marginal increase in comforts as car prices shoot up isn't worth what you pay. For 35K you can get something pretty excellent, no need to spend 70K, especially if you've lost 40% of your retirement and 25% of your other equity.

Mr_Shiftright

oops! Looks like the author deleted it. What was it?

fintail

Geez what are the odds...I found it like 15 minutes ago.

01 S600, clean, 60K miles, clean history etc....17.9K (I think)

EDIT:

Relisted at a lower price

Mr_Shiftright

He's gonna have to drop to around $12K I fear...maybe $13,5K if he's lucky.

That "trade in" price is pure fantasy. I doubt a dealer would give him half that.

fintail

That car probably cost around 130K when new....so a wholesale/residual of maybe 10% after 8 years and 60K miles...well, it was made during the peak of the Daimler-Chrysler days :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

brutal depreciation, yes. In Wall St. terms, they call that kind of hit--- "whiplash".

hpmctorque

"People will realize the marginal increase in comforts as car prices shoot up isn't worth what you pay. For 35K you can get something pretty excellent, no need to spend 70K, especially if you've lost 40% of your retirement and 25% of your other equity."

I agree with you completely, fintail. When we trade my wife's TL, it won't be for another TL, but, more likely, for a Mazda 6, Accord, or Fusion type car. The reason is that the '09 TL or Lexus ES just don't inspire us. We might consider a C-Class Mercedes, BMW 3-Series or Cadillac CTS, but only if the driving dynamics and other attributes justify the additional cost compared with the more popular priced cars I mentioned earlier. Prestige isn't a consideration for us, so the more expensive cars would have to win on their merits rather than their cache'. Another option would be a 2-4 year old E-Class.

lemko

...of BHPH lots in lower NE Philly full of out-of-warranty luxury cars and a huge market for them. A 2001 S600 is the darling of up and coming Russian mobsters in Somerton!

"Mmmm, Yuri! Luff your 'Sedes-Bainz Seeks-Hun-dret! More ree-laible thain Moskvich heem Sergei haff baik in Odessa!"

fintail

As long as you have a warranty, you should be OK. Actually that middle depreciation period seems to be reasonable on highline cars - it's the first 2-3 years where they really take a bath. Then they are steady for a bit, then they plunge again, usually because of a platform change. I am sure the only thing keeping my car worth more than a dime is the AMG badging.

Mr_Shiftright

Once these cars roll over 100K and are out of warranty as well, then they are sinkholes financially.

hpmctorque

Sorry, but what's "BHPH"?

jrosasmc

"I've owned quite a few "risky" used luxury cars, including: BMW 735i, MB 300D, 300SD, 560SEL, 560SL, Audi 100, (sorta luxury), Jaguar XJ6 (sold quickly after just READING about the car's problems, which it didn't have at the time), Alfa 164LS (quite luxurious)."

With all this talk about buying used luxury cars, and what ones to buy and not to buy, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned anything about Volvos yet. Then again, many people (including myself) don't mention the words 'Volvo' and 'luxury' in the same breath. I've never considered Volvo to be a luxury carmaker, but rather, a producer of very durable and reliable cars for the middle class, in the mold of Toyota and Honda.

Shifty, I see you've owned a few cars that you deem to be "risky," such as Audi 100s and BMW 7-Series- however, would you consider vehicles such as Volvo 850s (like mine) and 960s to be in the same category? My personal take on this is that 1) I don't see the newer, complex Volvos to be cars that would bankrupt an owner, like an older 100 or 7-Series would, and 2) Volvos are still simpler than a Bimmer or Benz, and thus will run longer even if in a decrepit state of condition. Even an older 240 is like an old '54 Chevy, compared to something like the Alfa 164 or Porsche 928. My '96 850 is long out of warranty but I will continue to drive it because I'm not afraid of the repairs, nor am I worried about racking up high mileage. Also, I would see no qualms about purchasing a higher-mileage 960 or post-1998 Volvo, because, again, they are simpler and more reliable than a Bimmer or Benz.

corvette

I doubt they will appreciate in value, but the early LS-es are known for their durability. Just hope the starter never fails (I think the books say it's an eight-hour job to replace).

I am not sure whether anyone builds a luxury car today that won't be a repair nightmare when it's a decade old. Most models have fully automatic power windows and keyless ignition. The Lexus GS series has that weird keypad with a million buttons that pops out of the dash--I guess that's the only alternative to something like iDrive when you have that many features. Even my base model Pontiac G6 has three fuse blocks--one in the passenger compartment, one in the trunk, and one under the hood.

corvette

IMO, Volvo is not in the same league as Toyota or Honda, reliability-wise. Pre-1998, my mother owned a 1995 960, and it was a great car to drive. It ate brake pads pretty quickly, had a few glitches here and there, but what finally drove her to trade it was a battery drain problem that the dealer couldn't fix.

Post-1998? The early S80s had tons of electrical problems. The transmission coupled to the T6 motor in the S80 and XC90 is too weak for the engine.

jrosasmc

I know about the post-'98 Volvos. The first S80s, as well as the T6 editions of both the XC90 and S80, have well-documented problems. To maximize the reliability of any Volvo I buy, I always stick with naturally-aspirated base models, and avoid turbos at all costs. This helps to ensure that I have a good-running, strong car, as I keep my vehicles for a long time. My dad's '99 S70 (base) has close to 100k miles and he has not had one single problem with it. It even has the original tailpipe on it, impressive for a car that sits outside in the frigid Vermont winters.

texases

"To maximize the reliability of any Volvo I buy, I always stick with naturally-aspirated base models, and avoid turbos at all costs."

Avoiding turbos of all types is something I do, too. Are there any turbos out there that folks would buy used?

jrosasmc

Oh I don't know. Even with all the advances in turbo technology during the '90s and early 2000s I still wouldn't buy one out of warranty. Heck, even if my mother gave me her '03 XC70 for free I'd refuse it.

corvette

The 2.5T (low-pressure version) is a nice engine, and I think it's supposed to be reliable. With any turbo, I'd prefer a maintenance history indicating that synthetic oil was used, but good luck finding that on a used car.

andre1969

I think it's "Buy Here, Pay Here". Basically, those lots that carry their own financing, where you can pay weekly or monthly, and while the monthly payment might not seem too bad, it's still a ripoff. One example might be Eastern's Motors, yo' job's yo' credit...

fintail

At the rate I drive, it will be more than 10 years before my E55 hits 100K...and it is 7 years old already. When it is 20 years old, mileage will be a small issue...I'm sure I will have something else by then too.

fintail

I have seen some miled up early LS, too. They copied the W126 in more than one way.

I think they do have a couple of problem areas - the backlit instrument display can fail, and I want to say I have read about something in the steering being a problem too.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, I don't think of a Volvo as a luxury car so it doesn't factor into my opinions on the subject.

Mr_Shiftright

And the leather on the LS400 usually deteriorates, too. But of course that won't keep you from driving it. It's a very nice, very boring car.

fintail

I've seen that especially on early SCs - also otherwise durable cars. Also, I have seen the steering wheel texture kind of wear off or peel off. That would drive me nuts.

corvette

You could always get one of those nifty fake wood and rubber covers for it.

I have been cleaning up my late grandfather's 1998 Park Avenue Ultra, getting it ready to sell, over the past few days. Much to my chagrin, I discovered that the passenger airbag cover is not molded in the color of the rest of the interior plastic, it's painted black plastic. I found this out when I tried to use a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser to clean some spots off it, and the paint started rubbing off. This is the type of cost-cutting that wouldn't fly in a true luxury car, and the type of thing that can leave a three or five year old car looking beat up. I probably don't need to mention the way it floats and bobs down the road, or that the steering is totally uncommunicative and has a huge dead spot in the middle. By the time you've phoned in a request to correct the car's course, it's already drifted into an adjacent lane.

hpmctorque

"I probably don't need to mention the way it floats and bobs down the road, or that the steering is totally uncommunicative and has a huge dead spot in the middle."

If that describes the Ultra, which I believe came with a firmer suspension than the regular Park Avenue, those negative ride and handling qualities you mentioned are even more exaggerated in the standard Park Avenue. Or was the firmer suspension an option on the '98 Ultra?

corvette

If that describes the Ultra, which I believe came with a firmer suspension than the regular Park Avenue, those negative ride and handling qualities you mentioned are even more exaggerated in the standard Park Avenue. Or was the firmer suspension an option on the '98 Ultra?

It has the Dynaride adjustable-height rear suspension, which was standard on the Ultra that year. I have the original window sticker ($36,000 smackeroos--the only options were a CD player and automatic dimming mirror). I think the firmer Gran Touring suspension was an option, but I'm not sure.

texases

Here's a good article about a guy with 3 diesels - at least he gives a realistic description of them, including the great line “I put my foot on the gas, and it didn’t move”, and notes the 20s 0-60 time.
3MBDiesels

hpmctorque

Thanks for the clarification. The car would be more appealing (or less unappealing?) with the Gran Touring suspension, which I'm almost certain became standard on the Ultra in more recent model years, as the Ultra was the supercharged version of the Park Avenue.

I imagine the GT suspension improves the ride/handling proposition significantly. Given the depressed cost of these cars today, they represent a good value in a large sedan. Of course, an aggressive driver would choose something else, but it's a good, solid vehicle for a lot of folks.

Good luck in finding a buyer. If it's not too much trouble, it would be interesting to learn about the type of person who buys it.

corvette

The heirs are leaning towards wholesaling it, so I'm not sure we'll know the demographic of the final buyer. I briefly toyed with buying it for myself to use as a beater, but decided against it for the reasons we've already discussed.

corvette

20 seconds 0-60 is just plain dangerous... To me, a luxury car should be able to get out of its own way, at a minimum.

fintail

Heh...a W123 diesel, especially in non-turbo form, with vinyl interior, good chance at manual windows/seats etc, not much in the way of gadgets at all, isn't a luxury car.

Mr_Shiftright

It's just a taxi cab in most parts of the world.

fintail

Quality and durability - not the same as luxury (kind of like quality and reliability not being the same). Those are the MB traits I like the most. Luxury and MB is a relationship made since the 70s at the very earliest, and really a product of the 80s. 107/116 etc were not really luxurious, and a 126 is even kind of austere in a German way. The ideal of softer leather and bling/gadgets is from the 90s.

fintail

Jeez, was it a taxi or a police car?

Mr_Shiftright

Must be the "best deal on the planet" because with that mileage, he must have driven around the earth a few times to verify his own claims.
:P

lemko

I have a 1988 Buick Park Ave I use as a daily beater. You can't kill the car - it's very durable.

Mr_Shiftright

Unfortunately, the odds are against you---the reliability ratings for that car are pretty well...mediocre would be the kindest way to say it.

It strikes me more of the "faux luxury" that Detroit specialized in. Cushy seats, cheap switchgear, bad handling.

it's certainly not a car I'd put my daughter in.

lemko

I have no problem letting my girlfriend use it as I get plenty of chances to drive her LaCrosse. Of all my cars, I drive the '88 Park Ave the most. Cushy seats, cheap switchgear, bad handling, but it gets the job done! Heck, my other two cars are so nice I'm afraid to drive them in Philly! Girlfriend loves the seats in the car as do many other people who rode in it. They wish automakers still put seats as nice as those in my Park Ave in today's vehicles.

andre1969

Unfortunately, the odds are against you---the reliability ratings for that car are pretty well...mediocre would be the kindest way to say it.

I don't think reliability ratings mean much of anything to a 20 year old car. How it's been cared for during its life is much more essential. I saw Lemko's '88 Park Ave soon after he first bought it, and that thing was obviously very well cared for. He's also kept up on maintenance and such, so it should continue to serve him well for awhile.

He's driven it from Philly out to Harrisburg and back numerous times when we get together for car shows, and it hasn't failed him yet!

Now sure, being a 20 year old car that's being used as a daily driver, odds are that eventually, it will succumb to something. But I think I'd trust a 20 year old car with mediocre reliability ratings that's been well cared for more than, say, a 5 year old car with stellar ratings that's been beat on and abused.

texases

Friend had a Park Ave., about 1990, used it for years, then the son did. Only consistent problem, he'd go through an alternator every 30k or so. How about yours?

circlew

At least GM makes cars that are good in Philly!!!

Regards,
OW

andre1969

"GM cars run bad longer than most cars run at all?" Although being a Chrysler man, I say Mopar should hold that title. :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

I'm sure I could take that car around the block and find 35 things wrong with it, but you know, you have to have a grudging respect for a car that won't quit.

hpmctorque

I presume you're referring to lemko's '90 Park Avenue, right, Shifty? Rather than spending the money for a round trip flight from the Bay area to Philadelphia, let's just ask lemko the following: Hey, Lemko, you've mentioned your Buick's paint problem, but be honest now, what other things, big or small, are wrong with your beater?