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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    edited January 2013
    Your dealer was a putz--clearly a possibility.

    It wouldn't be the first time a dealer didn't know his product line. I've had that experience several times.

    It defies logic that a modern vehicle along the lines of the Cruze would not have factory installed cruise control available...

    Edit:

    http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/cruze/2011/features-specs.html?sub=sedan&style=- 101329352

    Cruise was available on the 2011 Automatic trans. model...
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,175
    It defies logic that a modern vehicle along the lines of the Cruze would not have factory installed cruise control available...

    I agree. I have seen the same thing on stripper versions of other makes tho, like the last gen Honda Civic DX and some base model Scions/Toyotas.

    But it was humerous to me how a car called "Cruze" would omit a feature of the same name. Just seems like they left the door wide open for criticism... :P
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    I wasn't. He really has had trouble with his Honda mower.

    I also had a Honda self-propelled mower, which I fortunately no longer have.

    I always felt the HP stated on the engine was highly overstated, and the gearbox had an average 3-4 year lifespan (my lawn is approx. 1/4 acre). After the second transmission played out, I let the mover go to the landscaping product graveyard.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    edited January 2013
    Again, they didn't omit it. It was available in 2011 from the factory.

    And from the order guide in the Yahoo link, it apparently was available in the Eco that year as well.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    If it wasn't for the Corvair, there very well could have been no Mustang, Barracuda, or Camaro/Firebird. It was the Corvair that uncovered the market for an inexpensive domestic compact, and thus served as some inspiration for the Mustang.

    Wonder about that. Could it be that Euopean sports cars were the inspiration for the Mustang?
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,753
    Thirteen cars and 32 years later, I still don't regret never buying one.

    That is a lot of cars for 32 years.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,753
    I've had 5 cars (personal daily drivers, not counting kids or wife's car) in 40 years.

    I guess that's why I'm concerned about long term reliability. ;)

    For someone who trades in every 3 years or so, it doesn't really matter much.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,250
    edited January 2013
    >Your dealer was a putz

    If that was what the dealer actually said. Unbelievable about the stories some will perpetuate about GM. Even the ECO has cruise control standard.

    I did notice that Cruze does what toyota does on the Corolla and probably the Camry, Cruise is an option on the lowest model for price competitiveness.

    I also notice the Corolla is only rated at 34 highway. The Cruze is 36 and the Malibu is 33. Corolla or Malibu? Malibu is much better optioned. Same for the Cruze for me.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    edited January 2013
    That's buying for me and my wife.

    I've had three with over 100K miles (108K, 112K, and 129.6K), one with 94K, one with 93K, one with 75K, and the others with less. Way back when, as a bachelor, I traded every three years as I wanted to. I have 62K and 23K on our two Chevys now.

    My first new car, an '81 Monte Carlo, I had for 18 mos. and 35K miles as it was stolen and not recovered. I replaced it with an '82 Monte Carlo that was the dealership owner's demo. It was a V6 which I did not like as well as my previous V8.

    In 2002, I bought two new Chevys...one for my wife in January, and one for me in April.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,753
    I also notice the Corolla is only rated at 34 highway. The Cruze is 36 and the Malibu is 33. Corolla or Malibu? Malibu is much better optioned. Same for the Cruze for me.

    The Corolla is definitely not very competitive. They're riding on their company reputation and I'm sure it is very reliable. Just not very appealing at all.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,753
    That's buying for me and my wife.

    Ok, not quite so many, then!

    I guess my biggest gap was buying my first car used and waiting ten years for another. Then keeping the next one for another 9 years.

    I've just passed 8 years on my current ride. Thinking about a change in the next couple of years or so. :P
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    Wonder about that. Could it be that Euopean sports cars were the inspiration for the Mustang?

    Not really, when you realize how few European sports cars were being sold in this country at that time, and how the Mustang was priced low--way low--compared to them.

    I think andre left the term 'sporty' out of his sentence.

    The Corvair Monza was the first domestic small car to have (for the time) luxurious and sporty appointments; e.g., bucket seats and deluxe vinyl trim inside. It spawned the Falcon Futura and Lark Daytona and Valiant Signet and eventually the Mustang, which in turn spawned the Camaro and Firebird.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,849
    Not really, when you realize how few European sports cars were being sold in this country at that time, and how the Mustang was priced low--way low--compared to them.

    IIRC, Iacocca was influenced by the 2 seat European cars brought back by WW II vets but he was more interested in their children. Those baby boomers were now reaching an age (18+) where they would be buying their first new cars and had grown up with Dad's import.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    edited January 2013
    The Corvair Monza was the first domestic small car to have (for the time) luxurious and sporty appointments; e.g., bucket seats and deluxe vinyl trim inside. It spawned the Falcon Futura and Lark Daytona and Valiant Signet and eventually the Mustang, which in turn spawned the Camaro and Firebird.

    The Corvair Monza spawned nothing. From its failure and demise in mid-late 60's to this very day, there has not been a single American branded auto using the Corvair's rear-engine, rear-drive layout. Perhaps the closest though was the failed mid-engine Pontiac Fiero, produced for about 5 years in the mid 80's.

    No way did the Monza spawn or eventually lead to the Mustang. The Mustang design was front engine-rear drive, long hood and short deck. Not close to resembling the Corvair.

    GM has had many failures in car designs, brands over the years. Corvair, Fiero, Saturn. Then, the company itself failed, went bankrupt and had to be bailed out by we taxpayers.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    Just before going bankrupt, GM gave us Solstice and Sky. These cars reportedly had many problems and the divisions that produced them, Pontiac and Saturn, were eliminated by GM.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    edited January 2013
    No offense xrunner, but you really need to read some histories on the Monza and the Mustang and which spawned what, and on the explosion of the compact car market in the U.S. at that time.

    BTW, the only problem I ever heard about the Solstice and Sky was that the top was clunky.

    Lots of revisionist history going on here lately.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    Nothing in history showing a connection between Corvair and the original 1965 Mustang which went on sale in Spring of 1964. Mustang is more of Ford's idea for the creation of a brand new market segment. If anything, Mustang was Ford's affordable answer to higher priced "real" sports cars from Great Britain of that era. Such as Jaguar XKE. Two years later, GM answered with Camaro and Firebird.

    Chrysler/Plymouth introduced the Plymouth Barracuda sporty compact based on the Valiant about the same time that the Mustang went on sale. It too was front engine, rear drive. No connection to the Corvair.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    edited January 2013
    Nothing in history showing a connection between Corvair and the original 1965 Mustang which went on sale in Spring of 1964

    That may be the most ridiculous statement I've read on this forum...and there have been plenty...maybe only outdone by the Mustang being influenced by the Jaguar XK-E. Note to xrunner: The Mustang was a Falcon underneath.

    I'm done with this particular discussion. It's getting deep in here.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,998
    Well, if you want to get picky, the first "sporty" compact was probably the 1957 Rambler Rebel...a compact car with a 327-4bbl V-8 and dual exhaust. But, it was more sporty in the tough, brawny musclecar sense, than in the more European-style, "less-is-more" tossable type of sportiness. And by 1958 with the onset of recession, all of a sudden "performance" was becoming a dirty word. So the Rebel was about seven years too early.

    The Corvair Monza did not directly spawn any imitators, in the sense that the Mustang, Barracuda, et al were all conventional front engine, RWD, cars. However, it definitely established a niche for itself as a sporty compact and made Ford and Chrysler sit up and take notice.

    Now, the creative geniuses at Ford might not have said "hey, that Covair's a hot little item, let's copy it, but make it more conventional, and call it "Mustang!" But, Ford no doubt noticed that, as the Corvair showed, there was definitely a demand for compacts that were fun and sporty, yet affordable. And not just plain-jane and cheap.

    So, we may be splitting hairs here, but basically the Corvair accidentally uncovered a market for smaller, sporty compacts, and then everyone else jumped on it, but massaged and evolved their own designs.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,776
    I don't know if I can really buy a direct Corvair -> Mustang link either. I see the Corvair as much more similar to European cars - more modern and bleeding edge. The Mustang was of course just a rebodied Falcon, which wasn't exactly high technology. The Monza coupe might have shown there was a market for small sporty American cars, but I don't know if the same people bought both it and the Mustang.
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Posts: 181
    edited January 2013
    That's simply not true.

    The "Fairlane Group" was a team of ten executives assembled by Lee Iacocca to explore how Ford could tap the youth market, which was projected to grow dramatically in the 1960s.

    When the radical-for-Detroit Corvair sedan appeared in the fall of 1959, it was whipped in sales by the utterly conventional Ford Falcon. GM was seriously disappointed in the Corvair's initial sales performance.

    The Corvair Monza show car appeared in the spring of 1960, and was approved for production for the remainder of the 1960 model year. The first Monza was a specially trimmed Corvair coupe with bucket seats. It was a big hit, and for the 1961 model year, the Monza was the most popular Corvair model.

    This was a huge surprise to Detroit in general, and GM in particular. The top-of-the-line Corvair, with bucket seats, nice interior trim and upgraded exterior trim, was the most popular model. GM had planned the Corvair as a small, economy model, as its mantra was that "small cars were cheap cars." People who bought small cars were not thought to be interested in style or looks, and given the success of late 1950s Ramblers, one could hardly blame GM for making that conclusion.

    The Monza had (temporarily, as it turned out), saved the Corvair. As Hal Sperlich (who was then at Ford) later said, GM turned a failure into a success with the Monza.

    Ford scrambled to keep up with the 1961 Falcon Futura, a specially trimmed, bucket-seat version of the Falcon two-door sedan. The 1963 1/2 Falcon Sprint convertible and hardtop were additional responses to the Monza.

    The original Monza showed the Fairlane Group that there was a large market for a small, sporty, but not very expensive, car. Lackluster sales of the specially trimmed Falcons, however, showed that Ford needed to offer more than a Falcon with bucket seats and a different roofline. As Sperlich later said, putting a different roofline and bucket seats on the prosaic Falcon was like "putting falsies on grandma."

    In the early 1960s, the popularly priced European imports that still sold reasonably well (import sales had essentially collapsed when the Big Three compacts debuted in 1960) were the VW and various British two-seat sports cars. The VW as an economy car, while Ford knew that the market for something on the order of a MG was too limited by its standards.

    Reaction to its Mustang I showcar, which was a radical, two-seat sports car, confirmed this. Iacocca noted that the real buffs loved it, but they were not a large part of the market at that time (or today, for that matter). The Monza showed Ford which direction to take. The failure of the special-edition Falcons showed that Ford needed something more than a tarted-up Falcon.

    There's a very good chance that, without the success of the first Monza, the Fairlane Group would not have been able to push through the original Mustang.

    Read Mustang Genesis by Robert Fria and The Reckoning by David Halberstam to obtain a complete account of the Monza's influence on Ford's actions during this time period. The first Monza was a hugely influential car in early 1960s Detroit.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,753
    I don't know if I can really buy a direct Corvair -> Mustang link either. I see the Corvair as much more similar to European cars - more modern and bleeding edge. The Mustang was of course just a rebodied Falcon, which wasn't exactly high technology. The Monza coupe might have shown there was a market for small sporty American cars, but I don't know if the same people bought both it and the Mustang.

    Agreed. The Corvair was more like GM's VW Beetle or Karmann Ghia. The Mustang doesn't really have much resemblance other than being "sporty".
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Posts: 181
    edited January 2013
    Ford wasn't copying the Corvair's drivetrain layout - it was copying the concept of a stylish compact coupe with bucket seats, console, and up-level exterior and interior trim. That was a radical concept for Detroit at that time.

    The general consensus in Detroit, prior to the debut of the Monza, was that small cars were primarily purchased by people too poor/cheap/dumb to buy a "real" (meaning, full-size) car.

    If you wanted style, you were supposed to buy an Impala or Galaxie hardtop coupe with all of the trimmings.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    if you're going to be that general then the Corvair was actually GM copying the VW Type 1 "Beetle."
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    edited January 2013
    The Corvair part of the equation is the Monza, not just the Corvair.

    Really, articles have been written about the Monza concept (deluxe trim, bucket seats in a compact car) influencing the rest of Detroit, for decades. I mean, such articles have been around for decades.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    Yeah, but who wrote those articles, the GM PR department? ;)

    All cars influence each other to various extents, even abject failures like the Aztek. But at a certain point one just stretches the relationship too fat.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    edited January 2013
    I have thirty seconds invested in finding the below article on the net, and copying the link here.
    http://wardsauto.com/news-amp-analysis/mustangs-birthing-pains-iacocca-scores-hi- - s-third-pitch-henry-ford-ii
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Posts: 181
    edited January 2013
    The first Corvair was GM's response to the VW Beetle, and was influenced by its layout.

    Ed Cole had long been enamored with a rear-engine layout.

    Cadillac had built several rear-engine prototypes in the immediate postwar period, when Ed Cole worked on the development of Cadillac's milestone ohv V-8 for 1949.

    Booming sales of the VW Beetle after 1955, along with the severe recession in late 1957, enabled him to get a greenlight for what became the Corvair. It's safe to say that, if the VW Beetle hadn't scored its big sales increase in the late 1950s, there never would have been a Corvair. At best, in response to rising Rambler sales, GM probably would have went with a "safer" (and cheaper to build) design on the order of the 1962 Chevy II.

    This is all part of the historical record. There is no denying that the success of the first Corvair Monza had a tremendous influence in Detroit, and played a key role in Ford's decision to greenlight the Mustang. Even former, high-ranking Ford executives such as Hal Sperlich readily admit this on the record.

    As I've said in a previous post, read Mustang Genesis by Robert Fria and The Reckoning by David Halberstam to learn how the huge success of the Corvair Monza spurred the development of the first Mustang. And, no, Mr. Fria and Mr. Halberstam did not work for the GM PR department.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    Thanks for posting. That's the kind of stuff I've heard and read since I was a teenager...maybe younger.
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