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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    The main issue I have with "top X lists" is the usual lack of criteria identification in determining what makes the list.

    For example, the Chrysler Airflow was a loser because it didn't sell well, but it was advanced in its design and construction technique, even if there were some problems.

    The Vega sold well for the first few years, but had tons of design flaws.

    Just my opinion, but I like to have a handle on exactly what's being measured before getting out the measuring device.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,910
    I've heard that the '57 Ford was a horrible car in just about every respect...flimsy body, rust-prone, engines and transmissions that weren't up to par, etc. But, I still see them at car shows, and I'll say the build quality definitely looks better than the Plymouths, although not as good as the Chevy. But, wide body gaps and mis-aligned panels don't always mean a car is going to fall apart right away.

    My grandparents had a '57 Ford Fairlane 500 hardtop sedan, and one of my uncles said it was a really nice car. They traded it in '61 for a Galaxie 500 hardtop sedan, so they might not have kept it long enough for it to rear its ugly head.

    I don't know if this is true, or hyperbole, but supposedly if you took a '57 Ford hardtop sedan down a bumpy road, the body would flex so much that the doors could pop open. Even if that's exaggeration, you could see all the little tricks they did for '58 to strengthen the body, like the hood scoop, and the creases in the roof.

    I've heard mixed things about the Mercury. I think it was better than the Ford...at least, it was definitely heavier. But, I've heard they were also rust-prone.

    As for engines, I'm not really up on my Fords from that era, but looking in the old car book, here's what I found for '58:
    Ford: 292, 332, 352
    Edsel: 361, 410
    Mercury: 312, 383, 430
    Lincoln: 430.

    Not positive, but I think the 312 was a version of the Ford "Y" Block (Ford used a 312 in '57). I think the 361/383 were a design developed for Edsel/Mercury, while the 410 was a version of the Lincoln 430.

    I can't remember the last time I've seen a '57 Mercury, and I don't think I've ever seen a '58 in person. I have seen, on rare occasion, a '59 and even a '60. While those cars weren't tremendous sellers, they sold more units in any of those years than Chrysler or DeSoto. So, I dunno if that's some indication that the Mercury wasn't built as well, or simply that there's more demand for old Chryslers and DeSotos?

    With the cheaper cars, I see more '57-58 Plymouths at car shows than I do Fords, but that's somewhat influenced by the "Christine" effect.

    But, of course, everyone knows that every single '57 Chevy ever built managed to survive! :P Just like the early Mustangs and '76 Eldorado convertibles!
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,593
    Late 50s Fords are prolific rusters. My dad was into Fords of that era, and I remember looking at many cars 15-20 years ago that were piles of rust. Even his 60 Ford, a decent low mileage car, had rust free panels - but the front floors were shot when he bought it. Sketchy quality control. They must have improved soon after, as I remember plenty of 63-67 Fords that were still solid.

    I spotted this thing a few years ago, apparently unearthed after a long slumber. Has to be very rare:

    image
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,744
    Tough to strike a balance. Jobs are good, but we need sustainable jobs.

    Exactly. Which is why when people brag how many more jobs GM has than say, Honda or Toyota in the US -- well that's not altogether a good thing. Sort of like bragging about how many people the US Government employs...
  • berriberri Posts: 4,159
    I knew a guy in college who had a mid 50's Buick sedan and those doors would pop open on bumps. But I think it was more about latches than body flex. I always heard the 59/60 GM flat tops were notorious for body flex. And I agree with you and Fintail that latter 50's Fords were rust buckets, as was the 60. The 57 Ford had kind of clean body lines though for it's time and I remember the 57 wagons being very popular in the Chicago area even though it was a GM fan town.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,159
    I always liked the roof lines on those 57 Ford and Merc upper level 4 door sedan and hardtop models. They were kind of unique looking, although the less expensive 6 window sedan models were the volume leaders by far.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,369
    Do you honestly think that is an authoritative list, circlew? I ask seriously, because if you do, I'm stupefied.

    According to the source, it's authoritatively pretty relevant:

    We asked Edmunds, an auto information company that spends a lot of time driving and compiling information about cars, to put together a list of the top 10 worst vehicles ever sold in America. :shades:

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    I think most 'car guys', with perspective on 'those days', would consider that list very shallow.
  • jpfjpf Posts: 496
    GM is cutting jobs in Canada at its Oshawa plants. The Oshawa plants will soon lose Camaro production but gains the new Impala. GM's Oshawa plants employed approximately 20 thousand workers 20 years ago and now its down to about 3 or 4 thousand. In 2016, GM will fulfill its agreement under the bailout with the Canadian governments. By then, there may be no GM jobs left in Oshawa.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    2nd one, as explained by the Chief Engineer:

    http://youtu.be/9rz3QO_wbno
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Just announced.

    Ford had a big Q4 as well.

    Let's see how GM did...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    4 out of the top 5, wow!

    http://www.insure.com/car-insurance/passenger-injuries-2013.html

    None in the bottom 5, either.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,194
    "A disturbing new report by a government watchdog found that the U.S. Treasury Department "failed to rein in excessive pay" at General Motors and two other companies in 2012 following a government bailout.

    Sixteen of the 69 top employees at General Motors, Ally Financial Inc. and American International Group Inc. received 2012 Treasury-approved pay packages worth at least $5 million or more, the report said. Ally is formerly General Motors Acceptance Corporation, Inc."

    Report Faults U.S. Treasury for Excess 2012 Pay at General Motors

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  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    edited January 2013
    Nothing new here...

    I'm starting to think the French general population was on to something in the way they treated Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette...
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    You fail to understand that "not having a recall" is not always a good thing. It could mean there's no problems to fix...or it could mean they're refusing to take action until the government forces them to do a recall.

    It might be very interesting to look and see how many voluntary recalls a manufacturer has initiated, versus how many have been enforced on the same manufacturer.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    edited January 2013
    I suspect someone didn't bother to read the linked-to article...


    Sixteen of the 69 top employees at General Motors, Ally Financial Inc. and American International Group Inc. received 2012 Treasury-approved pay packages worth at least $5 million or more, the report said. Ally is formerly General Motors Acceptance Corporation, Inc.


    "In stark contrast, the 2011 median household income of U.S. taxpayers who fund these companies was approximately $50,000," the report said.

    The report was published on Monday by the Special Inspector General for the Troubled Asset Relief Program or SIGTARP.

    "SIGTARP found that once again, in 2012, Treasury failed to rein in excessive pay," the report said. "SIGTARP previously warned that Treasury lacked robust criteria, policies and procedures to ensure those guidelines are met. Treasury made no meaningful reform to its processes."


    What does any of that have to do with recalls?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    What does any of that have to do with recalls?

    Nothing. He needed to change the subject. :)
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,194
    edited January 2013
    It looks like two different threads to me. My post was titled SIGTARP. There was a reply to your post with the "changed" recall title (the point being GM didn't have one...today).

    It's easy enough to change the post title when you reply to someone (and it's often helpful to do so).

    Moving on.

    Shall we recall some execs or at least clawback some money? But who would work there for half those wages? :shades:

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  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,744
    And in related news today... GM didn't have a recall.

    When I saw that headline this morning I knew it wasn't going to be long before somebody (probably you) posted it.... :P
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,744
    Shall we recall some execs or at least clawback some money? But who would work there for half those wages?

    You know, it's not all about money. GM's board should find some up and rising smart middle managers who think out of the box (possibly not even from the auto industry) and put them in significant positions at GM. They can definitely use some younger blood with new ideas.

    On another note.... RIM (telecom company) in trouble, rebrands the company... now known as Blackberry. American Airlines in Chapter 11... has just announced a major branding change with a new corporate logo and the first new livery (paint job) in over 40 years. GM, bankrupt .... no rebranding, no logo changes, no name changes. IMHO a major mistake, as we all see the same old with a bit of improvement.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    Geez, a lot of people are sure touchy about a GM competitor having...another ginormous recall.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    Busiris: Note that the subject line says "Toyota has another very large recall". It's simply easier to do than starting a completely new thread. I doubt anyone was confused by the context.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,641
    I have one of those already, it's called a garage....
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    edited January 2013
    Note that the subject line says "Toyota has another very large recall". It's simply easier to do than starting a completely new thread. I doubt anyone was confused by the context.

    A pretty lame title. Poster could have at least said something less lame, such as: "Toyota has large recall, GM did not". Or some such. Might just pass a smell test.

    Use to be that hosts kept tighter rein on postings sometimes relocating misdirected posts to proper boards or just removing them. They also periodically reminded posters to stay within thread overall subject so that new visitors to Edmunds forums who expected to see something relating to the subject would find it.

    I am just as guilty as others at times in going off on tangent within the message. But, intentionally starting a new post with a title having nothing to do with GM is outrageous.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,091
    edited January 2013
    Most important is the problem indicated in the link text about this being the fourth time since 2010 that toyota delayed the reporting of the recall...

    http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130130/AUTO0104/301300365#ixzz2JTA0JPCh

    "...had a report of an inoperative wiper in May 2008, but said despite more reports "there was no clear trend and the failure rate was very low." Toyota adjusted its assembly process in July 2009 and then in July 2011 switched the wiper arm nut assembly for one used with other Toyota and Lexus models — but the company didn't opt to recall the vehicles until it investigated for another 18 months."

    The article also points out that toyota has led 3 out of 4 years, in recalls that is. Along with greater sales goes the problems of cars failing. It's not the perfect world anymore; everyone has failures with something going wrong.

    I'm looking around to decide what car to replace and which of a large variety of replacements I could choose. Can I trust toyota and Honda to fix things that they find wrong? Or will they stall recalls to try to keep the buzz good? Or would a used model have defects that have been overlooked in the reporting and kept out of recall status just to affect the buzz?

    image
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,769
    You know, it's not all about money. GM's board should find some up and rising smart middle managers who think out of the box (possibly not even from the auto industry) and put them in significant positions at GM. They can definitely use some younger blood with new ideas.

    They tried that back in the early 90's when John Smale (former head of P&G) became chairman and implemented a branding strategy that said people don't care what the cars can do - it's all about the brand. How did that work out?

    On another note.... RIM (telecom company) in trouble, rebrands the company... now known as Blackberry.

    That's all part of the new product launch. People love their Blackberries - they don't necessarily know that Research in Motion is the corporate name.

    American Airlines in Chapter 11... has just announced a major branding change with a new corporate logo and the first new livery (paint job) in over 40 years.

    Again - it's a new start for AA. But it's also an issue with the technology of their new planes. For years, AA was known for it's polished aluminum aircraft. It was distinctive and allowed for better fuel efficiency - a painted aircraft costs more to fly because of the weight of the paint. Their new planes are carbon fiber - the polished aluminum look can't be achieved. Further if they merge with US Air, they were going to have to strip all those planes. Going to a white base will save money if the merger goes through.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,194
    We're here all the time. It just works better to lay back a bit and let the community remind people to keep on track (members like you, in other words).

    The "King of the Recalls" thread has been going on in here for at least a year now btw.

    On the leadership note, Mulally has done a good job at Ford. Other "out of the box" managers haven't done so well (the Pepsi guy at Apple comes to mind).

    And then you have the mess at HP where they would have done much better promoting from within.

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