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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    The 'uniformed'? ;)

    This is now, that was then.

    Honestly, I wouldn't buy either and even as a teenager I considered the Camaro just too impractical. I was looking at Monte Carlos (OK, I'm more mature now) and Malibus and new '75 Nova Customs and LN's...and a Vega GT and Monza 2+2 or two. ;)
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,327
    31 to 11.

    Dang.. that's a lopsided scoreboard! And we chose to bailout the one that scored 11 points instead of the guys that scored 31? Strange!
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    Clearly the opinions of those in this forum or the ages of the execs aren't the major reason why GM's buying demographic is older. I don't think it's going to help GM to pass it all off as older execs. I'm not seeing them do enough to revers the age issue, which will be continuingly important to GM's long term success as the population ages.

    One can go back and look at the last few decades and recall that it was mainly the senior citizens who were driving Buicks and Cadillacs. Not much has changed if one observes who is driving these today. Could be that buyers of the early Camaros and Firebirds are probably now seniors and have moved up to Buick and Cadillac. Being that the next decade will see millions of baby boomers aging into seniors, GM will be positioned properly with their Buick and Cadillac offerings when these folks start cashing in their 401's and IRA's.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,704
    But Boomers like Lexus just as much if not more...
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    Gee it couldn't be that older people have more money to buy more expensive cars now could it? Note that in the link with brands median ages, none of them have an age lower than 40 ( I looked at it walked, what was the youngest, about 45? ). Buick did have a problem in that they age of thir owners was too old, they have done a lt t address it, and as mentioned above the age has dropped significantly, and I seem to recall Caddy did that as well. Chevy owners have basically the same average age as Hyundai and Toyota, and really everyone else, so I really don't think they have more of a problem than anyone else. If the average age was 10 or more years different than it would be a problem, but 1 or 2 is really not a big deal.
    I think you are making a bigger deal out of this for most of the GM brands than it actually is, then again you seem to have an axe to graind with GM ( and you have every right to do so) and seem to think any small difference against GM shows that they are horrible ( that is the tone your messages have to me anyway, it may not be you intention though).
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,964
    I'm sure a lot of those ages are thrown off by parents buying cars for their teenage and early 20-something kids.

    Also, if something is bought as part of a fleet, how is its buyer age factored in, I wonder? There's some Zipcar-like company in DC that bought a whole bunch of Smarts for their customers to use.

    Also, I'm surprised to see how close together all those average ages really are. 47 to 60 isn't really that big of a spread. Basically, that means your average buyer, regardless of make, is a Baby Boomer. It would be interesting to see the breakouts for individual models, though.

    And, Buick has done an incredible job of bringing down their average buyer age. I remember back in 2003, when MSN autos used to show average age in their listings, the Regal was something like 57, but I think the LeSabre was 67, while the Park Ave and Century were 70! I think the Rendezvous was around 45-48 though.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,372
    This is now, that was then.

    This is now!

    In other GM recall news, NHTSA is expanding a previous 2012 Buick Verano, 2012 Chevrolet Cruze and 2012 Chevrolet Sonic airbag recall to include the 2012 Chevrolet Camaro. :P

    Regards,
    OW
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,650
    General Motors is recalling 8,519 2013 Chevrolet Malibus because one or more rear suspension bolts may not have been tightened properly.

    The affected vehicles were built from December 6, 2011 through January 15, 2013.

    Somebody must have been attending to many holiday parties;)

    Uplander, IMO, this is how a vehicle can have varying reliability ratings from year to year. A recall like this is only due to a safety issue. What else could have been missed from the factory which simply was passed on to the dealer to fix under warranty. I'm not pointing this directly at GM as I think it applies to any manufacturer.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    This is now, that was then.

    That's what they call "heritage." :shades:
  • steverstever Ex Yooper, en route to New MexicoPosts: 40,499
    edited February 2013
    Also, I'm surprised to see how close together all those average ages really are.

    That surprised me too.

    They talk about how kids aren't buying cars, but part of it is that kids often can only afford used cars.

    My in-laws sold their Bimmer when they moved up here to the boonies and started buying Buicks. They had a friend who traded every 3 years, so they would buy his old one and then sell their car to someone else. All those folks in that hand-me-down chain were over 70, otherwise the average would have popped up, lol.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,964
    I wonder if the economy accounted for some of that "regression toward a mean", or whatever they call it? It's getting harder for younger people to find a good job these days, and they're often more saddled with student loan debt than in the past. So, today they're probably more likely to buy used, get help from a parent, or even go car-less than in days gone by?

    Similarly, older people usually buy less often anyway, at least in my experience. Many of them have probably seen nest eggs drop, pensions get reduced, health care costs go up, etc. So, they're probably buying less often, too. And, since the cars usually don't wear out like they used to, there's often no need to.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,650
    edited February 2013
    Looks like January was a good sales month.

    Toyota up 26%
    Honda up 13%
    GM up 16%
    Ford up 22%
    Chrysler up 16%

    Sales rate over 15 million.

    Doesn't look like Toyota is being hurt by the recall mess.

    For Ford, both the Fusion and Escape had great months. Over 22k Fusions sold and 19k Escapes.

    Malibu sales are improving a bit to over 15k sold in January.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,162
    I remember the first thing I wanted to do upon graduating was buy a new car. I bought a new black 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic within a week of graduating as I was already working and any student loan debt I had was very modest. I doubt very many of today's graduates are as lucky as I was. Many have hard time time finding jobs that pay modestly and have student loan debt the equivalent to a mortgage.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    edited February 2013
    dieselone, still, no one can tell me that one year, not the next, the next year, not the next--is the year to buy, not to buy--when the assembly location, engine, trans, most everything...has remained unchanged. Little blips, yes, but I still believe it's sample error and how the car compares to everything else that year. Do we even believe auto workers move in and out of those jobs that much? I don't. Frankly, I don't believe the Juke in 2011 is much-worse-than-average and the 2012 is much-better-than-average. I know about first-year stuff, but that kind of change? Even CR seemed embarrassed by it, as all they said was 'reliability average'.

    A recall is never a positive thing (despite what bpizzuti has said! LOL), but GM's numbers are certainly waaaayyyyy smaller than Toyota's and Honda's of recent time.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,650
    I remember the first thing I wanted to do upon graduating was buy a new car.

    Me too, and I was stupid to do so. The last thing anyone should do with a low to negative net worth (I was negative as I had school loans and a little bit of credit card debt) is buy a new car.

    Honestly, as my net worth has increased my desire to spend money on a new car has decreased. I haven't purchased a brand new vehicle since 2001 and I may never buy another new vehicle.

    I went shopping for new Suburbans and Expeditions the other day. What I found on the lots were near $60k. Why in the world would I spend $50-55k+ when I can buy an 1-2 year old used model for $30-35k?

    Though it does depend. With 4wd pickups and certain cars, the spread between new and used isn't so great.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    The first thing I wanted to do was buy a new car, also.

    I graduated college with no debt and was working within 3 1/2 mos. at a 'real' job. My folks had given me their bright-red three-year old '77 Impala coupe (with the wraparound back window), but I still wanted a new car. I told them their graduation gift enabled me to buy a new car as I couldn't have afforded one without the trade-in. I had my dealer search around and I bought a new, V8 (unusual for '81) Monte Carlo, factory two-tone light jade hood and roof over dark jade everything else, positraction, FM radio, intermittent wipers, and no air. I thought I had arrived!
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,650
    I can't dispute sample error issues, but I also can't rule out variation. Things happen. Bad fuel pumps can be sent from a supplier, a tool can get out of spec leading to bolts not correctly fastened.

    Example. We purchased a new boat last summer. At the end of the season when I was having it serviced and winterize the mechanic called me and told me water had entered the bellow which covers the u-joints and gimbal bearing. Well Mercruiser replaced the whole assembly and bearing.

    The drive design hasn't changed it's in several years, but in 2012 my dealer had seen the same problem on several boats with the same drive which they had rarely seen in the past on the same drive. For some reason the clamps were faulty and didn't create a good seal. This is a problem that popped up in 2012 that wasn't a problem previously and likely isn't a problem for 2013.

    Look at this particular recall for GM

    JAN 02, 2013
    Model Affected:
    2013 Chevrolet Silverado
    Summary:
    General Motors (GM) is recalling certain model year 2013 Cadillac Escalade, Escalade ESV, and Escalade EXT; Chevrolet Avalanche, Express, Silverado HD, Silverado LD, Suburban, and Tahoe; and GMC Savana, Sierra HD, Sierra LD, Yukon, and Yukon XL vehicles, manufactured between November 7, 2012, through December 18, 2012, for failing to comply with the requirements of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) No. 102, "Transmission Shift Lever Sequence, Starter Interlock, and Transmission Braking Effect", and FMVSS No. 114, "Theft Protection and Rollaway Prevention." The vehicles may have been built with a fractured park lock cable or a malformed steering column lock actuator gear in the lock module assembly.


    These vehicles have essentially gone unchanged since 07, how is it possible this problem came up and only affects those built between Nov. 7th and Dec. 18th.

    We only see things like this that affect safety. You're trying convince me that the same type of issues can't happen to the quality/reliability of thousands of various parts and components that make up an automobile.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,650
    edited February 2013
    Kids and new grads are different than in the past for a variety of reasons.

    It hasn't been uncommon for my wife to have new grads work for her that continue to live at home for a few years and/or drive cheap or fairly old cars. Were not talking minimum wage as her new hires start at over $135k/yr plus bonus and overtime. I think it has a lot to do with different priorities.

    OTOH one of her other young employees just bought a new Audi A8. Neat car.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,704
    I graduated at the height of Y2K malaise (oh, we thought it was bad then). I started work maybe 6 weeks out of school. My college car, the fintail, was doing fine, I couldn't afford any modern car I actually wanted - so I just stayed put. Several months after, I did buy a W126. I've never had much of a new car urge, as the used cars I have driven are pretty high spec, and used lux still trumps new standard, to me.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,650
    I graduated at the height of Y2K malaise (oh, we thought it was bad then).

    I graduated in '94 and that mild recession had me convinced at the time I'd never find a job or ever afford a house. I still vividly recall worrying about having to move back home and stock grocery shelves just to make my student load payments. Thankfully I received a few offers and accepted a position a few week prior to graduation.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Buick Encore should lower Buick's median age.

    I bet that buyer is a good 10+ years younger than their current median age.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,650
    When was the Encore offered at the dealers. I see only 353 listed as sold in January.
  • steverstever Ex Yooper, en route to New MexicoPosts: 40,499
    edited February 2013
    It hasn't been uncommon for my wife to have new grads work for her that continue to live at home

    In the late 80s my wife worked with a recent grad who lived at home. After making the truck payment she didn't have enough left over for rent.

    "General Motors handed the reins of its struggling European business to a veteran Volkswagen executive."

    GM gives reins of European business to veteran VW exec (Detroit Free Press)

    Sounds like a good poach.

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Have yet to see one in the flesh. No Buick dealers near me, though.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It worked for Kia.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    edited February 2013
    I think that kind of thing at suppliers is more likely than in the engineering and assembly phases, but I doubt it's enough to make big swings in overall black and red circles though. But we can agree to disagree.

    I think as someone once posted here, that the difference between a half-red circle and a half-black circle isn't nearly what it used to be.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,751
    dieselone, still, no one can tell me that one year, not the next, the next year, not the next--is the year to buy, not to buy--when the assembly location, engine, trans, most everything...has remained unchanged.

    I don't understand why it's not obvious that a bad batch of key parts could do this. Look at Boeing and the 787... some planes in service a year with no battery problems, then two in two weeks. Could be a bad batch of batteries. And given that it has grounded the plane, I'd give the 2012 model year a black dot....
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    I guess in the real world of automobiles, I've never seen this except for a safety recall.

    I often look at service bulletins, and they are usually for the start of a production run up to a point, not starting in the middle of a production run and ending sometime later (e.g., unless there's a new engine or trans or other major feature, there is rarely a service bulletin I've seen that starts only after that product has been out for a while).
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,327
    Some manufacturers may avoid publishing service bulletins because they prefer their heads in the sands and to not acknowledge known issues.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,650
    edited February 2013
    there is rarely a service bulletin I've seen that starts only after that product has been out for a while).

    I don't think you look very hard. Took me 5 minutes to find an example. Though the majority of TSBs I looked through don't give a model year range.


    2011 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Electrical System Service Bulletin 333142
    NHTSA: Action Number: 10044124 Service Bulletin Number: 333142
    Report Date:
    Mar 01, 2011
    Component:
    Electrical System
    Summary: General motors: due to the parasitic drain/discharge on 2011 vehicles and trucks, a no crank/no start and dead battery would occur. Cadillac sts and chevrolet volt not included. *pe


    Here is one for Ford

    2009 Ford Expedition Air Bags Service Bulletin 316523
    NHTSA: Action Number: 10038965 Service Bulletin Number: 316523
    Report Date:
    Apr 01, 2011
    Component:
    Air Bags

    Summary: Comm-trans lund: some 2009-2011 models may have the air bag inicator flashing with a stored trouble code.


    Hmm, the Expedition has been unchanged since '07.

    CTS

    2011 Cadillac Cts Suspension Service Bulletin 315969

    NHTSA: Action Number: 10038765 Service Bulletin Number: 315969
    Report Date:
    May 01, 2011Component:
    Suspension
    Summary: Gm: 2011 cadillac cts. There is a wine or hum noise coming from the rear differential assembly and there is a procedure to fix it. *rm
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