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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,026
    Fitzmall.com had some good deals on the outgoing 2012's not that long ago, but I just checked their site, and they're all sold out. Cheapest they're showing now is a 2013 LS model for $21,432, with an MSRP of $23,290. That price does include freight though, so it seems pretty reasonable if you want one of these.

    I don't think the 2012's ever got as cheap as $16K...I think more like $17-18K I think the botched launch of the 2013 ECO-only model might have actually helped dealers clear out the 2012's. People probably saw the price of the ECO, the small trunk, and how fuel economy really wasn't all that, but then it made the 2012 look like a screaming deal.

    I think Fitzmall was pushing the V-6 model, with leather and a sunroof, for around $22-23K.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    edited January 2013
    We're going around and around but let's consider that Chevy may have improved and actually earned a good score.

    Of course, that's quite possible, and it was never my intention to imply otherwise.

    What concerns me the most is how surveys, ratings and numbers get thrown around as if they are always empirically significant, when in fact, they aren't.

    When products or services are of like quality and price, ratings can be quite useful and accurate.

    My favorite misapplication of numerical data is the hysterically overused "Our organization has over XXX years of combined experience in blah, blah, blah". It's a totally meaningless number by itself.

    IBM has how many years of combined experience in computers?

    Yet computers have only been in existence for roughly half a century.

    Example: You have the choice of flying across the Atlantic on one of two airliners. Jet 1 has 3 pilots, each with 2000 flight hours. Jet 2 has 300 pilots, each with 20 hours of flight time. Both airliners have the same total experience on board.

    Which one would you select? Without knowing that additional information, its impossible for one to know there's any difference at all.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    I don't like JD Powers because they come off as "will say good things to the highest bidder" to me.

    That being said, who here likes cars being reviewed after 3 years? That's just the warranty period, I'm much more interested in the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th years.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,382
    Midsize Sales?

    Malibu launch proves New GM is not any better than Old GM in the car department.

    Most of the competition beat Malibu except the Optima, Prius, Outback, C 200 and Passat.

    It was #6....despite the incentives and the fleet sales.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,382
    Even at that low price, Malibu was #6 in Mid-size sales last year.

    Not too good a showing for America. :blush:

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,382
    They must have changed it, finallly, after reading my posts:

    "Runs Deep into..."

    Regards,
    OW
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,877
    I don't like JD Powers because they come off as "will say good things to the highest bidder" to me.

    Nah. JD Powers is more "we'll slice and dice the data until it says something good about your product."
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,382
    edited January 2013
    Let's consider the Malibu as above-average dependability for a moment. Why have sales tanked?

    I just can't understand why the top global auto manufacturer doesn't have a #1 mid-sizer that blows away the competition in their home market! That should happen every year, just like the 3'er for the Bimmer brand in the ELLPS category!!!

    Mind-boggling, even for me, who can't think complex to save his life! ;)

    Go Kia! :shades:

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    edited January 2013
    Have you seen the February CR?

    You may be in for a surprise concerning the Malibu. I know most everybody here thinks CR is important.

    A 1LT was rated higher in total points than an Optima, Subaru, Altima, and Passat.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,764
    That being said, who here likes cars being reviewed after 3 years? That's just the warranty period, I'm much more interested in the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th years.

    Exactly. I wouldn't even consider a car I couldn't trust to 60K+ miles. I've only ever gotten rid of a car once under 100K, and a couple have gone over 200K. My current one is still pretty sprightly at 130K and counting.

    I want to know how a car holds up over the longer term. Somebody else can buy cars every three years, eat the depreciation, and power the economy. Doesn't have to be me. :shades:
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,764
    I just can't understand why the top global auto manufacturer doesn't have a #1 mid-sizer that blows away the competition in their home market!

    This.

    GM just pulled a Honda (like the recent Civic refresh). Difference is that Honda can afford the mistake, GM is much more fragile.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,764
    A 1LT was rated higher in total points than an Optima, Subaru, Altima, and Passat.

    Maybe it will convince some buyers to come into the showrooms...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    It's not the conventional wisdom. I hate conventional wisdom. ;)
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    Let's consider the Malibu as above-average dependability for a moment. Why have sales tanked?

    I just can't understand why the top global auto manufacturer doesn't have a #1 mid-sizer that blows away the competition in their home market!


    Saw Motorweek tonight (it apparently was a rerun) and they rapped Malibu on two counts. Poor rear seat legroom - they showed it. Poor gas mileage, only 22.4 mpg. This was a turbo that was tested.

    Another car tested, in the ultra luxury ultra expensive segment, was a Bentley GT Turbo V8 with 500 HP and weighing 5000 pounds. It got 20.7 mpg per the testers. The show DID NOT compare the Bentley to the Malibu.

    I know this is apples and oranges, but how embarrassing is it to GM that their Malibu got only 1.7 mpg more than the heavier and much more powerful Bentley.

    People watching this Motorweek show probably wondered why the Malibu did not return far, far more mpg with a 4 cyl engine than the Bentley with a 500HP turbo V8.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    edited January 2013
    I think a lot more people follow CR than MotorWeek (for right or wrong). Again, the Malibu was rated higher than most all cars in its class, if one looks at total points, in the Feb. CR. They did mention its higher sticker price, but again, I'd ask what can the cars really be bought for?

    I still believe it needs more rear legroom. But it's not a t*** like most people here have said without so much as getting within three feet of one.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    Nah. JD Powers is more "we'll slice and dice the data until it says something good about your product."

    Apparently, nobody told Benz, BMW, Audi, Subaru, Nissan, Mini that.;)
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,382
    edited January 2013
    A 1LT was rated higher in total points than an Optima, Subaru, Altima, and Passat.
    Maybe it will convince some buyers to come into the showrooms...

    Perhaps this is why it might not....

    For US Automakers, Where Does Broken Trust Go?

    So GM, consuming taxpayer funds, wiping out many dealers, investors and paying NO compensation, may need to look beyond BP to judge how long potential customers might hold grudges.

    Regards,
    OW
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,877
    Apparently, nobody told Benz, BMW, Audi, Subaru, Nissan, Mini that.

    More info please?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    I'd ask what can the cars really be bought for?

    This may shock you but there are mainstream cars out there that people pay sticker for. Or more, in some cases.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    Just that all those brands were below Chevrolet on J.D. Powers' three-year reliability survey, 2009 models, that was posted on this site maybe a week or so ago.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    That does shock me. After never doing that once in thirty-two years of new car buying this month, I wouldn't start now.

    In fact, I tend to avoid new and desirable models, even when they were Chevys, for that very reason.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    I notice there's cash on the hood of the "new and desirable" Chevy right now. And not long after people were paying sticker for Hyundais. Not even Hondas, which also go for sticker sometimes. Hyundais were going for sticker, when GM can't get sticker for a Chevy (outside of the 'Vette anyway).
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    The Equinox was going for sticker when I bought my Malibu, in mid-'11. My wife wanted one, and besides my not liking the looks of it, the refusal to deal on them was another reason I guided my wife to the Malibu.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    What's funny about JDP is that some brands do well on IQ but not longer term 5+ year Durability (VW), while others are just the opposite (Subaru).

    I echo the post above that the post-warranty era matters more to me.

    Will be interesting to see if Chevy's good scores hold up in their longer term survey. I don't see a reason to think they won't. The trucks last forever and it is sales weighted.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,877
    Just that all those brands were below Chevrolet on J.D. Powers' three-year reliability survey, 2009 models, that was posted on this site maybe a week or so ago.

    Well that's not the only piece of data they can sell to the car companies. Ever read the disclaimers at the bottom of a car commercial:

    "What we are claiming is base on JD Power data of white vehicles with tan interiors registered in Tiny Town, ND."

    JD Power can pull out any piece of data on a vehicle and help the car maker create an ad around it.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    I think that's a slight exaggeration. ;)

    "Most appealing" is always kind of laughable to me, I'll admit that.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    For me the funny part was when they dinged Mini for a poorly designed cup holder. Then again, they do not measure reliability, they measure Quality and what they call Durability.

    I mean, it's not like the cup holder broke.

    They also dinged Hummer when owners complained about gas mileage. Hummers use gas very, very reliably.

    They're measuring different things than CR, that is for sure.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    edited January 2013
    I guess I thought it was 'reported problems', including mechanical things in their individual charts. Are you saying that mechanical reliability does not factor into the Power numbers? Extremely hard to believe, as you know. BTW, a broken cup holder would be 'interior hardware' on the CR survey.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,877
    I guess I thought it was 'reported problems', including mechanical things in their individual charts.

    JD Powers measures problems as "things gone wrong." It can be a defect or a design issue in the view of the person reporting the problem.

    Ford was dinged for Sync. Hummer was dinged for poor fuel economy. Porsche was dinged for dusty brake pads. All of these were reported as "problems" by JD Power although they all worked as designed.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,494
    CR reports 'things gone wrong' as well. Somehow I do not believe that 'poor fuel economy' for Hummer ended up in Powers' three-year reliability survey. I don't believe you believe that either.
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