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"Most post 1992 Camrys have sludge problem and will seize" rumor

cyw0cyw0 Posts: 27
Why I create this topic?

isellmitsu and her fiance fxashun repeatly posts
their claim that "most post 1992 Camrys have sludge
problem and will seize" in Camry and Camry 2
topics. They have been asked many times by lots of
users in Camry topics to stop repeating the same
claim over and over and have been suggested to
create their own topic in maintenance forum, but
they won't listen and respect to most users'
opinions. Therefore, I create this topic for them
and hope they will enjoy here. Anybody interested
in this topic, please feel free to discuss it with
them. Thanks!
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Comments

  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    I'm fine enough. Thanks. :) I have a happy family and are having a great start on the 4th of july weekend (got 4 day weekend, woohoo!)

    I just don't like the fact that fxashun is using double standard. If he used one standard and called both Camry and Accord's problem s"most" or "few", I wouldn't have bothered. It's the obvious double standard being used by him that I find unacceptable now. :)
  • cyw0cyw0 Posts: 27
    Last time I checked, you still have 2.8799 million sludged Camrys need to find. Now almost 1 month has passed, you only give me 5 more? According to this rate, you need another 575980 months and that is 47998 years and 4 months. You two need to work harder, otherwise, I wouldn't be able to see the final report. I'll check it again next month, I hope you two work harder, OK?
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    Researchers didn't have to test every smoker to know that cigarettes cause cancer....Every Camry didn't get checked before Toyota changed the struts on the Camry. And even more pertinent all Camrys eventually seem to develop bad valve seals but I don't see a recall on those either by Toyota. Could it be because if they don't recall them, most people won't know what it is and by the time they bring it in Toyota can blame the bad valve seals on the sludge instead of the other way around.

    But that's OK. It is obvious you either don't have the intelligence to see the truth or to see that my point has been proven. Either way you lose.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    fxashun's own fiance, isellmitsu, made the following statement. Which fxashun has repeated supported along the same line. Please stick to your own standard.

    Isellmitsu, Daewoo Leganza 3, post 612.

    When confronted with dozens of reports of Accord's
    transmssion problem, she said:

    "And I said there are bound to be a few people on
    Edmunds complaining about their Accord. They sold
    so many of the durn things it's not even funny.
    Even if 1% of Accords sold last year alone had a
    problem you are looking at 4,000 cars. If 10% of
    those people know about Edmunds you are looking at
    400 different people who would be on here
    complaining. But I have not seen 400 different
    people complaining, instead it's always the same
    few people complaining about the same problem."

    Please now find 3,200 reports of Camry sludge in Edmunds, the same as you have asked others to do. You are short by 3,195.
  • bnormannbnormann Posts: 335
    Calvin,

    Please do not post any more comments like this:

    "It is obvious you either don't have the intelligence to see... "

    This does NOT conform with the guidelines for Edmunds Town Hall.

    It wouldn't hurt for you to apologize to cyw0, as well.

    Your host , Bruce
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    The fact that there I have found posts concerning every year of the Camry since 92. they all share the same engine. There are no other cars that have such a "sludge record" as the Camry. It's obvious to anyone with a two digit IQ that the Camry has some type of problem with sludging.

    Since I am not her I'm really not interested in what she posted in an entirely different forum. I am still quite amused and flattered that you would go through Edmunds and look for her posts though.

    As far as an apology. Get real. If you'd read some of his posts in Camry 1,2,or 3 you'd see why I said that.
  • rickc5rickc5 Posts: 378
    I bought a 1997 Lexus ES300 (same drivetrain as Camry) a couple of months ago. The car had 44K miles on it and had been regularly serviced by a Lexus dealer, with oil changes around every 4000 miles or so, according to the maintenance log.

    After I drove it for a couple of weeks, and BEFORE I discovered this sludge mess on Edmunds, I changed the oil and filter. Switched to Mobil 1 synthetic, as I have had good results with Mobil 1 on previous vehicles.

    Here's the interesting part: When I removed the Oil cap, lo and behold, There was some orange/brown crud that had accumulated on the underside of the cap. Having been around for a few years, I sure recognized it for what it was- SLUDGE!

    My conclusion, based on this experience? I think its quite possible Toyota does have a sludge problem, but if Toyota reacts to this as they have to other problems with their vehicles, it will freeze in h*ll before they admit it! In fact, my PERSONAL experience with Toyota is that the further you go up the chain in attempting a resolution to a problem, the stronger the denial you receive. Protecting their (somewhat tarnished) sterling reputation appears to be their number one priority, not customer satisfaction.

    BTW- I love the Lexus. Its what Toyotas were...
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Lexus ES300 is a V6. The "sludge" problem fxashun is talking about only affects the 4 cylinder engine.
  • rickc5rickc5 Posts: 378
    Well, that may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that there was sludge on the underside of my oil filler cap.

    Since I got into this sludge thing somewhere in the middle, I never found a specific reference to which engine was affected. Thanks for th update.
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    The only reason that I have not included the V6 in this discussion is that I am having it would be opening up another facet of this argument that I don't feel like debating right now. I said also that I don't have that much experience with the V6 because I was checking predominately 4 cylinders.

    As you have read in my posts Toyota is refusing to fix cars that have been "sludged". I seriously doubt that the multiple reports of sludge are coincidence because there is no one engine that has accrued as many sludge reports as the 2.2L 4.

    I will add however that Abarbee's engine was a V6 and it seized because of sludge(according to Toyota).

    Keep us informed on what the dealer says about your sludge issue
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    They said it's all 4-cylinder back in the Camry forum. And there has been only 1 report of a V6 engine problem, but that car was a lemon, and the dealer was an real [non-permissible content removed]*$&#.

    Either way. I don't think any engine in the world is perfect, that includes the Camry's 4 cylinder. But when someone goes to claim that MOST 92-2000 camry engine have sludge problems, that's just too wild and unrealistic. Consumer report tabulate all the used cars and the % engine (and other areas, such as transmission, ect) problems each year. 1992 Camry, after almost 9 years use, only 2-5% of them have engine problems, that kind of reliability is only equaled but NOT exceeded by any automobile except 2 cars in the market, Lexus SC300 and Lexus SC400.

    It's reasonable to assume that some of that 2-5% engine problem is due to sludge, but that's hardly qualify as "most". You are going to run into one problem or another, no matter which car engine you buy. And unless you buy Lexus SC300/400, you are not going to get a more reliable engine than the Camry's (statistically speaking).

    Just like Honda's tranmission problems. You can dig out 5 Camrys with sludge, and you can dig out 20 Honda Accords with transmission problems. Does that mean, "most" of these 2 cars suffer these problems? No, of course not. With isellmistus and fxashun's own calculation, even if 1% of the Camrys are affected, and only 10% of the affected posted on Edmunds, there would be 3,200 reports of sludge, and we are not even close to that.

    I don't deny that an individal might have a problem with their Camry or Accord, and I sympathize with them. But I think any statment that says "most of these 2 cars" have engine/transmission problems is fly in the face of reality.
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    In looking for my mom a Camry, most of the 92+ Camrys that I came across had some level of sludge. That's my experience. Consumer Reports is just that...Consumer reported problems. As you read in my above links no one knew that they had sludge until they put their engine in for service. People can't report problem they aren't aware of.

    Unlike the transmission clunk that is oft referred to here sludge is not an obvious condition. Rickc5 can attest to not thinking to look for the sludge before he bought his Lexus. I'm sure if he had known that his Lexus had sludge he would have been just as reluctant to buy it as if the transmission went clunk. One big difference is that even if he had bought the clunking Honda he would have warranty service. There is no such thing for the sludge.

    A lemon is a car that can't be fixed after several attempts. Abarbee's car is no lemon, his fix is simple...A new engine. He has a car that Toyota WON'T fix. At least not under warranty.
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    Hmmm. 1998 Camry mid 50's in mileage. There is no other car with this many complaints about sludge.

    http://looksmart.remarq.com/looksmart/transcript.asp?g=quack%2Etoyota&tn=50002025&sh=ff148b757a90f5d9&idx=-1

    Sounds familiar too. Oil change receipts, 4 cylinder, no idea he had sludge, no assistance from the dealer.

    No proof?
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    yeah right. "most 92+ camry have sludge problems". But 3.2 MILLION Camry drivers all MISSED the plainly visible sludge on the oil cap...for the last 9 YEARS...and so did Consumer Report... 6 reports of sludge = most camry has sludge problems? 20 reports of Honda transmission problem = most Acccord have transmission problem?

    hahaha. Can't argue with that kind of great assumptions, it's even better than the claim itself. You win. I'm out of here. :)
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    If this is just some fluke show me another engine that has the sludge record of the Camry. There is no other engine that compares.

    I'll leave Edmunds if you can find a modern engine that has 5 separate owners referring to sludge as I have done with the Camry. Surely it should be easy since this could happen to any car.

    Strange the only other references you can ever get is the Honda transmission problem. If Toyota fixed it's sludged Camrys like Honda fixed the transmissions we probably wouldn't even be here.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    I'm simply applying your fiance, isellmits's, own words to your claim. You have supported her claim repeatedly. Let me refresh your memory:

    isellmitsu, Daewoo Leganza 3, post 612.

    When confronted with dozens of reports about Accord's transmssion problem.

    "And I said there are bound to be a few people on Edmunds complaining about their Accord. They sold so many of the durn things it's not even funny. Even if 1% of Accords sold last year alone had a problem you are looking at 4,000 cars. If 10% of those people know about Edmunds you are looking at 400 different people who would be on here complaining. But I have not seen 400 different people complaining, instead it's always the same few people complaining about the same problem."

    So if you argued endlessly saying the dozens of reports are "isolated" or "rare" cases, then why are you now saying the far fewer numbers of Camry sludge reports prove "most 92+ camry have sludge problems"? That's why I bring up Honda Accord. You are double standard.

    Stick to your own standard, not what suits you at the time.
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    I asked if it's no fluke how bout another engine that has shown the same track record. Should I be safe to assume that you can't find one? I might also add to your post that even though AcraGrl said that, there DID turn out to be a problem with the Honda transmissions built in a certain time frame. Hmmm. Kinda sounds like what I have been saying.
    Honda transmissions from Nov 1999 to Jan 2000.
    Toyota 4 cylinder engines from 1992 to present.

    Hey, I thought you were leaving.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    You supported her arguement and used it repeated to support Honda Accord. So face up to it. It's funny how you can only find 6 reports of sludge for 9 years Camry production, but you can find doznes of transmission problem with only 2 months of Accord production. So don't use double standard calling Accord's problem "isolated" or "rare", then switch to say camry's problem affet "most 92+ camrys".

    Yes, I'm leaving. I won't waste any more time with your kind of double standard. You can sit here all by yourself and wait for those 3,195 reports that should show up by your calculation. I won't hold my breath if I were you, if 6 reports is all you can find for the last 9 years. Call me when you find them all.

    See ya.
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    There are several reasons the sludge issue would not be as easy to track as the clunk in the Honda transmission.
    1. The clunk happened when the cars were new. Easy to pinpoint the problem and no chance for operator error. Everyone knew it was the transmission.

    2. Sludge is not a problem in itself. It's just a condition that can lead to other things such as oil starvation.

    3. Toyota has done a good job of blaming the condition on the owner. But it seems that Camry owner must be lax in their maintenance since EVERY forum that talks about Camrys has at least one reference to sludge. And in each reference the owner did not know he had sludge until the dealer told him. Most of these owners claim to have receipts showing regular oil changes. Most reports of the clunks weren't diagnosed by the dealer, a clunk is a no brainer.

    4. If sludge was universal there would be more references in other forums. No surprisingly there must not be since you haven't linked us to them. Since no other make has anyone complaining about clunks meant Honda eventually did end up having a transmission problem...It would seem to add up that no other make having coincidental sludge issues would mean that Toyota has some problem with sludge.

    5. Additionally as you know I checked well over 50 Camrys in our trade-in lot. And nearly all of them had some level of sludge. I will say that I did find some that were not sludged though. But the Camry showed a tendency to have the problem more than any other car traded in.

    I thought you were leaving in post #16.
  • arkie6arkie6 Posts: 198
    What is this deal about "sludge" in the Camry oil filler cap? Sounds like the oil vapor reaction to the water vapor that condenses in the plastic oil filler tube. What's the big deal? My old Chevy S-10 did the same thing. I can't see any consequence to this. If you think this is causing some kind of engine oil starvation problem, I think you are looking under the wrong rock. It's a non issue.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Thanks, your explanation seems reasonable. I had never really thought there was a problem to begin with, but have you seen Toyota Camry 2 in the Sedans conference? Over 500 posts, and probably 80% deal with this sludge issue in 4-cylinder Camrys.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Just a little more than a week after I said none of my cars smoke, I noticed blue smoke coming from the tailpipe of my '97 Camry LE 4-cylinder on a cold start. Verified that it happened again today, twice! Now what? It was purchased new in Feb. '97, oil and filter changed every 5000 miles by me, and will have 57,000 miles as of tomorrow. That means 3000 miles left under the powertrain warranty.
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    But if you'd read back to the beginning of the "sludge" posts in "Camry" my fiancee and I are the ones who brought it here. I'm can't say any more that hasn't already been said before. If you have any questions I'll be happy to try and answer them. The "blue smoke" issue is also covered with the "sludge".

    As far as arkie6's explanation I have this to say. If that were the case ALL Camrys really would have this problem from day one. And while I will state that a very high percentage of Camrys that I have checked have sludge, there are those that don't. In addition, the Camry does not have a "filler tube". And there are other cars that have the same oil cap design and they also don't display this tendency.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Thanks for the advice. I had looked at earlier posts in this and the "Camry 2" forums. Lots of name-calling, and I have to admit, I was skeptical there was really a problem. Except now my Camry (57,000 miles) was issuing blue smoke on a cold start, so yesterday I called the independent shop that I've used for almost all nonwarranty work on my cars over the last 8 years. The shop owner said the Camry blue smoke was an indicator of worn valve stem seals, and had seen "a few" Camrys with this problem. Then I called the local Toyota dealer (not where I bought the car), and the service writer also said that the valve stem seals were the most likely problem. He asked if I had oil change receipts, and I said that since I had done all the oil changes myself, I had only the receipts for the oil and filters and my handwritten notes on when I had done the work. They took my car today, said my notes and receipts were acceptable, but the service writer did say that they would take off the valve cover to look for sludge first! Just now, he called again to say that the engine was "fairly clean" (5000-mile oil and filter changes) and they were not only going to replace the valve stem seals under warranty, but also the head gasket. The gasket had a slight "weep" at the "front" of the block that was causing coolant to escape and run down onto the exhaust manifold, where it was being burned off (hidden from view). He said that this gasket problem was minor and probably wouldn't have gotten much worse (no coolant leaking into the oil). I asked if there was anything I could do to minimize the possibility of the seals going bad again, and he said to halve the normal oil change interval from 7500 to 3750 miles.
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    There are several owner here and on usenet that have this same problem and their dealers have been unwiling to help them. Like someone said before, it's all up to the discretion of the dealership. I'm glad you caught those valve seals before your warranty ran out though.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    that I discovered the problem before the warranty ran out, that my record keeping on the oil changes was acceptable, and that the dealer gave me no hassle at all in honoring the warranty. I really thought I'd never need the 5-year/60,000-mile powertrain warranty when I bought the Camry, but it goes to show that even a well-maintained car with a reputation for stellar reliability can still have problems! BTW, I asked a co-worker, who used to work for this dealership, whether they were reasonable regarding warranty claims. He said he remembers no problems.
  • boca2boca2 Posts: 4
    I recently had a sludge problem with my '97 Camry 4cyl. Approx. 41K miles. Fortunately, I have an extended lease warranty and caught the problem in April before having to turn it in at the end of the lease in 2 months. I also purchased a '98 Camry 4cyl.(1 month after the '97 from the same dealer)which also now has over 40K (fortunately no problem). The both cars have been serviced regularly at non dealership locations. At first the dealership started to give me a hassle but after talking to the manager, the valve seals were replaced under warranty and the engine desludged "in good faith". I'm shopping to replace the lease car now. That is how I found this topic. I'm leaning toward another Camry since it suits our needs and has had a reliable track record, or does it? What do I do now?
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    I offered several suggestions while I was being attacked for suggesting Camrys were having sludge problems. I suggested using synthetic oil at 5000 mile intervals or at least changing your oil every 3000 miles. The manual's 7500 mile interval isn't often enough.

    If you like Camrys you really have no other choice. As has been said before the Accord and Camry are the two top cars on the market but an Accord isn't going to like a Camry and vice verse. So now that you are aware of the "problem" you know to watch your maintenance carefully.
  • arkie6arkie6 Posts: 198
    What color is this Camry sludge? What negative effect does it have on the engine? Is there any relation between the sludge and the valve guide seals? If so, how?
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Hello all. Just a quick visit.

    delry: The sludge in your Camry may very well have been caused by the use of Pennzoil (you mentioned it somewhere that you used it). That oil is known to cause sludge. So stay away from it from now. Also, Quaker State oil also does the same thing. Those two oil are made by the same company, and they contain/use a waxy additive(look in Camry 3 forums for the name).

    Also, the Toyota manual is too lax on the oil change by stating 7,500 miles. That's for ideal conditions, most people should NOT wait that long between oil change. Even Edmund's suggest 3,000 miles. I personally do one every 4,000.

    I'm happy that your Toyota dealer took good care of your problems. You are pretty lucky too, since Honda only has 36K mile warranty. While it's overall reliability is on par with Toyota, there must be few Honda owners got caught in those 2 years difference.

    Boca2:

    The claim by Isellmitsu that "most 92+ camry has sludge problems..." simply isn't true. Since the number of effected are extremely few, and consider the numbers of Camrys on the road (more than 3.2 million of 1992+), some the few reports certainly does not constitute a widespread problem. As Isellmistu herself pointed out while defending Accord's transmission problems, if there is 1% of them had problem and only 10% reported them, we would be seeing 32,000 reports.

    Camry and Accord are the two most reliable cars on the road. Each has less than 5% engine problem even after 9 years of use (consumer report). Besides Lexus SC300/400, statistically there is not a more reliable engine on the market. So buying other brands will most likely just be swaping one problem for another (or two or three...) There is no perfect car, even Honda and Toyota has a small chance of having problems. You might get a lucky and get a trouble free car from any brand, it's just that your chance is better with Toyota/Honda.
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