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"Most post 1992 Camrys have sludge problem and will seize" rumor

135

Comments

  • arkie6arkie6 Posts: 198
    From your above posts, it sounds like some unscrupulus dealers are trying to stick it to some of their less knowledgeable customers.

    I have a little bit of mechanical knowledge after rebuilding several automobile engines, the most recent being a 1984 Supra. The sludge you refer to is most likely just the result of the oil additive's reaction with condensation in the engine. This condition is aggravated by infrequent oil changes and lots of short trips which never allow the engine to fully warm up and drive off the condensation. I have not looked at a Camry owners manual, but the other vehicles that I have owned recommend an oil change every 3000 miles for severe service conditions, with numerous short trips of < 5 miles being considered severe service.

    There is no way that a buildup of sludge in the valve cover area is going to be a cause for an engine rebuild unless it gets so severe that it plugs the oil drain holes in the head that allow the oil to drain back to the pan. Even if this occurred, I would think that you would develop severe oil leaks around the valve cover gasket prior to any engine damage.

    Another reason you are finding more posts about the Camry than other cars is possibly due to the fact that most Toyota owners are so picky about their vehicles, myself included.

    Alan
  • liufeiliufei Posts: 201
    fxashun:
    "Toyota policy is to deny service coverage if sludge is found..."
    Man, that definitely sounds like a botched up dealer..... I know Toyota salesforce are among the worst in the auto industry as it is with Honda, but is their service dept rank flat bottom too?
    The 1st quote does indicates that the person is using Penzoil though, so that may also strengthen the argument that Penzoil/Quaker state is the cause of the sludge?
    BTW, what nonsense are you talking about?

    arkie6:
    Another reason is probably because other brand owner doesnt know how to spread their situation to the internet, or doesnt feel the need to do so :)
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    only 5 to 10 post? Geez, I could do lot better than that if most 92+ camry has sludge problems. See how easily it is to find reports of Accord's transmission problems even though it's rare and isolated accordding to fxashun and isellmitsu/acuragrl. It's funny how they say a large number is "few" and "isolated" and then say a smaller number represents "most". Talking about double standard.
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    Were so picky about their cars they would change the oil more often. If Camry owners were so picky about their cars what does that make the other myriad owners of cars that have no sludge issue? Why is the Camry the only car with multiple sludge posts? If sludge was as common as that why aren't other engines doing it? We've covered how sludge normally forms previously.

    I checked our auction record today and found that of the 15 Camrys that were auctioned in the past couple month over 9 of them had noted sludge. That's enough sludge to where we had to note it on the windshield.

    What's meant by spread a situation to the internet? There's an alt.autos.honda with little mention of sludge and there are other automotive newsgroups with no single engine with multiple posts regarding sludge. Any forum regarding Camrys has someone with sludge.

    If all you can do is compare this to the Honda transmission problem with every post Wenyue you really are reaching. How many times do I have to say that the Accord DID have a transmission problem in it's V6 models. You wanna do something constructive how about finding posts referring to the 4 cylinder's transmission. Maybe if you find multiple posts regarding THAT car you'll have some information we can debate.

    If all anyone can do is say "no there's not" and have nothing else to say....That's weak. Let's see what you have to work with...Honda transmissions, picky owners, oil brand, short trips, and a 1984 Supra???!!!!....Gimme a break. Everything except the Honda transmission and Supra are things that happen to any car and there are no sludge posts about them. And you guys are supposed to be college educated too.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    what's weak is when someone keeps on denying that the Accord's V6 problem were widespread dispite more the more numous reports it had, and then the same person turns around and trying to turn the fewer reports of Camry sludge (5-10 out of 3.2 million camry owners) and calling it "wide-spread".

    I can easily find 20 or more reports of Accord's transmission problem. So one can either say "accord's transmission problem is wide-spread, and to a less extent, so is Camry's sludge problem", or you can say both are "rare and isolated" (which has been fxashun's line all through those months of defending Honda's repuation). At least one can keep it consistant instead being so clearly biased and double standard for God's sake!

    Does any one have any substantial evidence that can refute the fact that MORE THAN 95% OF THE CAMRY ENGINES ARE RUNNING TROUBLE FREE AFTER MORE THAN 9 YEARS? (consumer report) I don't mean few circumstantial problems found by plowing the entire internet. Camry didn't win a bullet proof reputation by every well established sources by having sludged up engine in "most" of them.

    p.s I found couple of sludge reports by Accord owners and showed to fxashun, but he failed to mention that of course.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Thanks! Saved me the time for digging up all the reports. I did a search for "sludge", and there are over 30,000 posts containing that word. Some are unrelated but a large number are, and by all the automakers. I simply don't feel like wasting my weekend listing all the posts. Thanks for saving everyone's time.

    Keep in mind that there ARE ALOT more Camrys on the road than just about any car. So a single report of Saturn/VW/Mazda/Nissan report is easily statistical equivalent of 10-20 Camry reports.

    Not saying that there isn't a small % of camrys out there that has sludge problems. But when someone says "most" of them do... well, let's just say I know more than 10 Camry owners within my social circle (camry is a very popular car among Chinese), and either all 10 of them are all lying or lucky as hell, or most Camry engines are very reliable.
  • cyw0cyw0 Posts: 27
    After fxashun searched the whole net, finally he gave 5 examples in post #1. If my memory serves me right, those 5 examples were reported by the owners somewhere else (most on alt.autos.toyota) and did not give out detail information on this issue. Therefore, we did not know and did not have chance to ask those owners how they maintain their cars and more detailed information regarding their Camrys (such as did they really see sludge under the valve cover?)

    But anyway, I remember post #61 and #62 (just posted by fxashun) are two of those 5 previous cases given in post #1. I just hope those same cases won't get "double dipped" (is that the right term?), being posted 1 month ago as a strong evidence, then being posted again 1 month later as another strong evidence.

    Is that a good thing to do by reposting those post #1 old cases again (post #61 and #62) and then say "I can find these all day about the Camry" (title of post #63)? And even delete the original post (post #1)?
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    To solve this problem: Those few people, who decided to follow the owners manual's lax oil change requirement (7500 miles), should go back to change oil like the vast majority (every 3000-5000 miles). Stay away from Penzoil, (I bet more than one Camry fell victim to that junk). If that's done, most of these reports probably wouldn't even be here.
  • liufeiliufei Posts: 201
    Service for you and the rest eh? Can i have your address to send this bill? ^__^

    To be fair, I also find some post regarding Penzoil/Quaker state using wax based oil in and being categorized as class I oil which help sludge buildup, but thats (according to the poster) is a long time ago, and now they used class II oil which supposedly much better...Castrol on the other hand still use class 1 oil.
    Also, there's another gentleman that use mobil oil, and still has sludge, so go figures...
    Also (geesh)... some of the post indicates sludge build up is possible because the car has been subjected to waaayy too many cold starts and short trip between starts... seems logical to me too.

    Anyway, people can draw their own conclusion and I think what wenyue point out (3k regular oil change) should help dissolve the sludge issue.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    This is what I found in "Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2 (Topic #851)".

    Post 146:

    "Dealer is nuts. No one uses a straight 30 W
    anymore, especially new engines. Dealer problably
    got one hell of a discount on the oil and needs to
    push it. Stick with the multi viscocity oil. I
    once informed Toyota that their dealer was not even
    offering the recommended weight oil for the car
    and they quicly told the dealer to offer it. They
    (dealer) had a special deal with Penzoil for a
    strange weight and were pushing it."

    If this is indeed true, that Toyota dealers have a special deal with Penzoil, then it might be the cause. If you change your oil at the dealer, please find out what oil they are using.
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    I knew I would get BS and that's what I got.

    Wenyue- How many ways do I have to say that THE ACCORD V6 DID HAVE A TRANSMISSION PROBLEM. If I knew Chinese I would say it that language. I've said that many times but you seem to not be reading it. HOOKED ON PHONICS WORKS. Yes, you did show some Honda sludge reports and not only were they on 2 separate engines they also each explained themselves. In case you don't remember I have said several times that the Camry 2.2 4 cylinder is the ONLY engine that seems to have multiple sludge references. You whole post was just irrelevant BS.
    liufei-If you had actually read those links you would have not used them.
    The VW links were for air.cooled VW engines as in the engine in the Beetle up to 1974!!!???
    The Nissan link only mentions sludge.
    The Mazda post has all kinds of issues in addition to the sludge.> excessive fuel consumption
    > small chronic coolant loss
    > excessive oil consumption
    > premature oil breakdown
    > engine vibration
    > clattering valves
    > low rpm hesitation
    > lack of power in all rpm ranges
    The Saturn link is about an engine cleaning service. It didn't say that the car actually has sludge.
    And the Jeep is a 1989 but I may be willing to give you that one if you can find other posts implicating this engine.

    You obviously also didn't read my last post. I said that the 92+ 4 cylinder Camry is the ONLY car that has MULTIPLE posts concerning cars that actually have sludge. You can deny it. You can post BS. An that fact will still remain. There are several posts concerning cars with sludge it's just that the Camry is the most prolific.

    Also of that 30,000 how many were paint sludge, pond sludge, chemical sludge?
  • liufeiliufei Posts: 201
    This is like the umpteenth time someone else post slipped before mine can be posted. I hate that!! ^__^

    Well, i found one sludge issue with a 95 camry:
    http://looksmart.remarq.com/looksmart/transcript.asp?g=&tn=10000009&sh=0015b4cd22c992cd&str=sludge&idx=0
    At the bottom, someone suggested switching to synthetic oil, change oil more often and after 3-4 changes, it should remove the sludge. So I guess frequent oil change does prevent sludge, which mean sluge buildup is due to long time between oil changes? I do wonder if just switching to synthetic and changing oil frequently will remove the existing sludge buildup? Dont they have to clean the pan,gasket and stuff?
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Still, you dodge the question.

    Can you or can you not disprove the fact that MORE THAN 95% CAMRY'S ENGINE ARE TROUBLE FREE EVEN AFTER 9+ YEARS?! You can come up sling all the mud, and dig up the entire internet, you still can't show more than just few circumstantial cases.

    Is Camry a perfect car? No. Do few of them have sludge? Yes. But do "MOST" 92+ camry engine suffer sluge problem. NO! Not unless you call less than 5% problem rate after 9 year "most". Besides Lexus SC300/400, you can't find a more reliable engine, in fact, most engine have worst reliability. Want to trade?

    Also. Let me quote you (and remind you) on the subject regarding Accord's transmisson problem:

    From Leganza 2:
    post 169 -- "Luckily not that many Accords
    were affected and of that few the number if
    dissatisfied customers should be minimal."

    post 175 -- "It didn't effect that
    many vehicles and Honda voluntarily repaired them."

    Oh, so you say the more numerous reports of Accord's tranmssion problem (on Edmund's alone) stand for "... Not that many..." and "...few...". And then you turn around and say the few reports (after you digging up the entire internet, mind you), stands for "most 92+" have problems.

    Can we say "DOUBLE STANDARD?" You either say both of them are "most", or "few" for both. You can't use double standard to suit your purpose.

    Also, while you are busy bashing Daewoo in the Daewoo forum (what were you doing in a Daewoo forum in the first place?), during a debate of Korean vs Japanese quality, you used Camry as an example of Japanese cars's quality. Post 177. "Even if 10% of
    the Camrys produced had a problem that would be
    40,000 cars a year. They would NOT be the standard bearer if they produced the equivalent of the entire years production of Daewoo of poor quality. " Oh, now you say that any problem is less than 10% in Camry (hence indeed not MOST). You seem to like to say whatever suits your argument at that time.

    Look I think we heard enough from you. You can drop the double standard, or triple standard, or whatever number of standard you have. You can either disprove the fact that Camry engine is more than 95% trouble free even after 9 year, or you can stop saying "most" camry has sludge problems. Since you insisted the more numerous reports of Accord transmission problem is "few", then I'm sure you will agree that the few reports of Camry sludge is "fewer". Right?

    Exaggerating the extent of the problem isn't helping anyone. Try to help the very few who do have problem instead.
  • liufeiliufei Posts: 201
    geeze buddy, calm down.. you going to have a heart attack :). This is only a discussion, nothing to get soooo excited about it. Fxashun can be right or you can be right, it wont affect your livehood, so calm down, and enjoy the great weekend. (wohoo!! time to blast some fireworks!!)
  • jnowskijnowski Posts: 96
    Hi everyone,

    I had quite a bit of fun reading the "spirited" discussions. I really do not have an opinion about the vehicles mentioned or their problems. I do however want to make a few comments.

    About the 1%, 10%. I seriously doubt that even 1% of people with problems post them on Edmunds. All you have to do to prove this is take a vehicle with a known problem, (TSBs' are a good place to start). Find out the total production for the vehicle in question, and compare it to the number of posts on Edmunds. I would be VERY surprised if this number exceeded 1%. A better way to do it would be to calculate the percentage based on the Edmunds population, eg. how many of the Edmunds brand X owners have a problem compared to the total number of Edmunds brand X owners.

    Probably 90%, (or pick your number), of consumers are truly clueless when it comes to their cars. The people on Edmunds are the most knowlegeable and involved segment of the car owner population, yet probably represent only a fractional percentage of the car driving population. Therefore it is quite possible that a common problem could go unnoticed by a vast majority of the population.

    Brand loyalty/bias is also a consideration. The stronger a persons loyalty and/or bias toward a brand is, the more likely the person is going to be in a denial state of mind towards problems with their object of lust. This is a very normal basic human behavior.

    Having said all this, I believe that the major factor preventing determination of problems lies in the cluelessness of the average consumer with a small contribution by the brand loyalty/bias issue.

    IMHO
  • aquaticaquatic Posts: 12
    I had a 1994 Toyota Camry LE. Purchased new and driven by my wife. It had 66,000 so just about 11,000 miles per year. I changed the oil using Penzoil and Fram oil filters at about every 6,000 miles or twice a year. We pampered that car. My wife wanted to get routine maintance done on it and have the timing belt changed on it at 66,000 miles. There seemed to be nothing wrong with the car it ran perfect and sounded fine. We took it to a dealer and after he changed the timing belt he called and said our engine was sludged from not having changed the oil often enough and we needed a soft rebuild or a new engine between $3,600 and $4,600. Now on the way home for the first time ever it was blowing smoke on acceleration. I contacted Toyota about this and they blew me off in a nano-second saying that it was not their fault and they were not going to budge. Even though I may be in a minority of people who have had this problem with the Camry Toyota could have cared less and for me having taken care of that car the Camry was not that great a car.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    jnowski:

    Hmm, interesting point. Ok, take your number and let's adjust to allow greater error in the real world. So if only 10% of the people are knoledgable about cars. Then let's increase the reported % by a factor of 10.

    Camry sludge problem: 0.0719% x 10 = 0.719% real world.

    Accord transmission problem: 0.316% x 10 = 3.16% real world.

    Still, neither of those problem qualify as affecting "most" cars.

    I agree that many people are clueless about their car. I heard this from a Toyota dealer. One woman turned in her Camry who's engine seized at 44,000 miles. The reason? She never changed the oil (she didn't know she had to). It really shows that there are some clueless people out there.

    I more or less agree that I would guess that only 10% of the car owners actually have a good amount of knowledge about cars. The hard part is determining how much does one has to know about cars to qualify as a knoledgable sort. :)

    aquatic: You are another person who reported to have sludge that uses Penzoil. The oil is known to cause sludge forumation in many different brand of cars. I would suggest that you switch to another brand (besides Quaker State) in the future. Good luck.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Wow! I go away for a few days and this topic becomes one of Edmund's hottest.
    Some comments: My user name 210delray comes from a mid to late 50s Chevy model; I don't live in Florida but rather Virginia. But Chevrolet undoubtedly took the model name from the Florida beach.
    I did NOT have sludge in my '97 Camry, just blue smoke on startup, caused by worn valve stem seals, which allowed oil to enter the cylinders. I DID follow Toyota's severe service recommendation for oil changes, which for the 1997s is 5000 miles (not 3000 miles).
    It was the service advisor at the Toyota dealership that mentioned the possibility of sludge when I brought the car in with the blue smoke problem. I didn't prompt him; he simply said the first step would be to remove the valve cover to check for sludge. It seems to me that Toyota knows there is a potential problem with the 4-cylinder engine.
    Wenyue, your point about Consumer Reports is well taken. I have put a lot of trust in their reliability surveys (and I fill out mine every year), but I think Fxashun also has a good point that the consumer has to be AWARE of a problem in order to report it. It was just by chance that I saw the blue smoke from my car -- only because I was looking from the street when another family member started the Camry in our driveway. But I couldn't see the smoke myself when I started the car another time -- someone else had to watch from outside. And the car ran and sounded fine.
    About Pennzoil - yes, I used it at first (and for years before in my older cars - no engine problems with them!) Then I switched to Texaco and Mobil. I think Pennzoil is getting a bum rap -- does anyone out there have any recent proof that it's worse than others? (Isellhondas: your story about the old mechanic was fascinating, but you're right that today's oils are vastly different -- in terms of additives -- from those of the late 50s and early 60s.)
  • jnowskijnowski Posts: 96
    You are completely correct about todays oil being completely different. Every time the service requirement has increased, (API rating), the oil has had to be reformulated some way to meet the new standard.
  • Aquatic: Part of the problem with your Camry could have been your oil change interval. Although you may or may not be within manufacturer's recommended mileage recommendation (I don't know much about Toyotas), you were probably outside the time recommendation. I know that several major manufacturers (Ford, Chevrolet, and Subaru) recommend changing the oil at most every three months whether you drive the car or not. Oil can absorb contaminants from the atmosphere, namely water. As time passes, more of the contaminant is absorbed and the oil becomes less and less useful. This could have contributed to your sludge problem. As far as the arguments about which oil is better, it really doesn't matter. All major label standard oils are pretty much the same. Synthetics are much better (of course), but if you follow the recommended oil change interval, they are not worth the added cost.
  • jnowskijnowski Posts: 96
    it's very refreshing to see a person take the logical/rational approach to debunking an overblown statement about "All or Every........"
  • jnowskijnowski Posts: 96
    IMHO the greatest factor between different engines in sludge formation is heat. As oil passes beyond a certain temperature range the oil starts to break down, and actually becomes thicker. Now, while the AVERAGE temperature of oil is kept fairly constant even between different engines, The SPOT temperature in a particular engine may be raising the oil up to or above its breakdown point. As an example, this could occur in a head assembly near an exhaust port with marginal cooling in that area. The oil would start to break down in that one spot and eventually get carried throughout the engine causing "sludge". This of course would be a long term, 30K-100K mi., problem. The advent of aluminum heads has made this a bigger concern due to the superior heat transfer coefficient of aluminim compared to cast iron. The reports of an absence of deposits with synthetic oil, which has superior high temperature characteristics, tends to support this hypothesis.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Thank you. :) I work in the pharmaceutical research field. Ananlyzing data is part of the business. And yes, I believe the "most" claim is way over blown.

    Over heating is one contributing factor. But bad oil filter and bad engine oil is another. Penzoil is (was?) known to cause sludge because of the additive they put in. It's something called "paraphin" (not sure about the spelling), I think it was used to increase the viscosity of the oil. But it also known to gum up your engine and cause sludge. I will look into the matter further.
  • aquaticaquatic Posts: 12
    I followed the recommendation of oil change interval by Consumer Reports:

    How Often?

    The long-time mantra of auto mechanics has been to change your oil every 3,000 miles. Most automakers recommend an oil change every 7,500 miles (and a specific time interval) for "normal" driving, and every 3,000 miles for "severe" driving (frequent trips of less than four or five miles, stop-and-go traffic, extended idling, towing a trailer, or dusty or extremely cold conditions). Many motorists' driving falls into one or more of those "severe" categories.

    In our survey, almost two-thirds of our readers said they had their oil changed every 3,000 miles or less. They may be following the thinking expressed by one of our staffers: "I have my oil changed every 3,000 miles because that's what my father did, and all his cars lasted for many years." To determine whether frequent oil changes really help, we changed the oil in three cabs every 3,000 miles, using Pennzoil 10W-30. After 60,000 miles, we compared those engines with those from our base tests of the same oil, changed every 6,000 miles. We saw no meaningful differences...

    The bottom line: Modern motor oils needn't be changed as often as oils did years ago. More frequent oil changes won't hurt your car, but you could be spending money unnecessarily and adding to the nation's energy and oil-disposal problems. Even in the severe driving conditions that a New York City taxi endures, we noted no benefit from changing the oil every 3,000 miles rather than every 6,000. If your driving falls into the "normal" service category, changing the oil every 7,500 miles (or at the automaker's suggested intervals) should certainly provide adequate protection. (We recommend changing the oil filter with each oil change.)

    I think my downfall with the 1994 Camry is that my wife drives very short distances so she had frequent cold starts and short distances contributed to sludge. I noticed on toyotas website http://www.toyota.com/ that their maintenance schedule recommends oil changes every 5,000 to 7,500 miles too.
  • Aquatic: I agree that oil can easily be good up to 7,500 miles. However, I wasen't talking about mileage, I was talking about time. Time is the killer when talking about oil absorbing contaminants from the atmosphere. Six months is a long time with the same oil in your car (you said you changed it twice a year). I know several major manufacturers recommend oil changes every 3 months or 7,500 miles, normal driving schedule, whichever comes first (including GM and Ford). This should apply to an import also.
  • liufeiliufei Posts: 201
    There's a bunch of missing post. Did the host delete them or something??
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    "My" topic made the list. I'm so proud. This is like my little baby. <<sob>>

    Anyway...I have answered every question it's you who obviously in dire need of ritalin or something so you can comprehend. If all you have done is open your consumer reports and found those tired statistics you once again "need to get out more". There are more people every week coming in here saying they have had a sludged Camry just like I said there would be.

    I like the fact that you have to go into an entirely different topic to find stuff to use in here. It good to know that you put this issue so high on your life's priority list even though you have claimed to be leaving three or four times now. Why don't you trot on back over to those early Leganza posts and you'll read why I'm in that forum.

    As far as my "double standard" I defended Honda until we found that...here we go again...THE V6 HONDA DID HAVE A TRANSMISSION PROBLEM. Geez...You are about clueless. Like I said if you find a widespread problem with the 4 cylinder Accord tranny maybe we can debate that or maybe that there are present problems with the Accord transmission. I'll say that one more time for the slow ones out there THE V6 ACCORD DID HAVE A TRANSMISSION PROBLEM. This is starting to sound like a discussion with cyw0. Repetition,
    repetition. If the Accord problem is all you have to debate with you should abide by your previous statements and be "outta here" because this is the Camry sludge topic.

    Sling mud????Bash???I have not bashed the Camry...There are two presently in my family. I think it's time I restate my true assertion because the name of this topic is not what I said. It was a sarcastic statement by Cywo.
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    Back in Camry 1 a person came in the say that has Camry had sludged and siezed. He asked is anyone had heard of Camry's sludging. My fiancee said that she had. Blah blah blah and here we are. A cut and paste from March(post 510 Camry 1)..
    "I don't recall Mitsu (AcuraGrl) ever saying that the sludge problem would cause engines to fail. She only said that the engines do have a tendency to sludge. Especially after high miles. Maybe if you change your oil every 3000 miles it won't but if the manual says change it every 5000-7500 miles it should not be necessary."

    I clearly said that the engines probably would not fail only that they have a tendency to sludge. As far as "most or "high percentage" that's subjective I guess so whatever.

    So here we go: In my experience I have found that a high percentage of higher mileage Camry 2.2L 4 cylinder engine have sludge build-up to some extent. I suggest that anyone looking to purchase a higher mileage Camry (80,000+) check the oil cap and inner valve cover for a black substance coating the insides.

    That's what I have said all along.
  • fxashunfxashun Posts: 747
    Wenyue the Leganza post 169 is from JANUARY???!!!People had recently started posting about the transmission problem. Please post in context. Also could ya quit weakening your argument by using that Honda transmission reference? You've been using it since March (post 525 Camry 1). That makes the fact that I still have to answer that same comment here in July even more [non-permissible content removed]-inine.

    Liufei:Deja goes back at least a couple years. You have to refine your search options. Go back and check again. But you still aren't getting my point. I said the Camry 4 cylinder is the only engine with multiple (as in many) references to sludge. I don't mean just references I mean people who say that their engine HAS sludge. There are several here on edmunds. Heck there are 2 or three at least so far in here.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    How did I weaken my statement by bring into the light how you down played the number of Accord's transmission problem while exaggerating Camry's sludge problem?

    As my calculation have show, there are more reports of Accord's transission problem (about 4 times more), than Camry's sludge problem.

    What I have a problem is that you (as I have quoted your own words) down played the number of Accord's transmission problem by calling them "very few". And then, turns around and called the Camry's problem "most 92+ camry". That's where I have a problem.

    Can we get the numbers straight here? And use one standard? So if you called the 20+ reports of Accord's problem "very few", then anyone would reason the 5 reports of Camry's sludge problme is "even fewer". I don't see how you go from "very few" to "most". Numbers isn't biased, they are just numbers.
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