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Mazda Protege Maintenance and Repair

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Comments

  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    They aren't damping things as well as they used to, and you're hearing the result.

    And before Raymond rears up and starts crying "PROBLEM! PROBLEM!", I'll note that struts are a WEAR ITEM.

    Meade
  • meinradmeinrad Member Posts: 820
    And we know your struts have taken quite bit over the years!
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    Is that some kind of reference to my weight, Mr. Wild? Now, is that nice? Play nice, kiddo, or I may have Larry drive over to your place and dump a 55-gallon drum of Sawmill Gravy in your swimming pool.

    :)

    (Humorous Content Disclaimer to all Town Hall Members: Raymond and I know each other. We're kidding. Relax. And btw, Larry manages a Cracker Barrel Restaurant, if you're wondering about the Sawmill Gravy.)

    Struts normally last about this long, from what I've experienced. By the way, another reason I'll be trading the Protege next year is, I don't want to go through the (normal but expensive) CV Joint replacement around 100,000 miles.

    Meade
  • meinradmeinrad Member Posts: 820
    Can't say thay I replaced struts on any of my cars, even the ones I've kept to 120k miles. Probably should have, but never did. I've only replaced one CV joint, and that was on my Chevy Citation when I was 17.

    Oh, and Pool will be open Saturday, so bring on the Sawmill Gravy!
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    The car really isn't driving any differently than it has before; I can just hear this vague clunking noise when I encounter a rough spot in the road and I'm driving slowly. (The road near our house has a downhill S-curve that you have to take at about 20 mph, and the edges and center of it have been eaten up by truck traffic -- you can't avoid one side's torn-up pavement without hitting the other side's. So I'm constantly taking this torn-up pavement with my wheels at a fairly sharp angle and the car leaning one way or the other. That's the only place I've been hearing this.)

    And yes, I'll be the first to admit that I've been rougher on this car than I would've been with a car that didn't just beg to be tossed around like the Protege does. The fact that this car has gone four years and 75K miles with constant near-red-lining, tire-limit-testing off-ramp speeds and general zoominess with no ill effects is one of several reasons I'm sold on Mazda.

    Takes a booming and keeps on zooming, eh?

    Meade
  • hboydhboyd Member Posts: 98
    To give ya'al a heads up about my problems:

    Mazda is covering the parts [$250 -- master cyl and brake fluid]; I'm "responsible" for $170 labor to diagnose and install. The part most likely failed about 4 months ago before the last dealer service, but may not have been caught OR after service -- as the dealer claims; but I think less likely because there are telltale signs of accumulated fluid-grime under and around the power brake unit. It is hard to prove the date. I'm still working things out with the service dept. My '01 ES has only 46K miles. I'm a little worried but not too much.

    Another problem discovered -- however minor -- was also found by myself: The left headlight bulb popped out of the spring-loaded socket assembly. My wife noticed that the left headlight was pointing up while I was following her to the dealer. It was a genuine pain to "pop" it back in place.

    MARTIN
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    I have been hanging around Edmunds, and especially on the Protege discussions, since May 2000. In four years I have NEVER heard of this problem. Looks like you got the master cylinder that was installed before the guy punched out at 5:01 p.m. on the day of the big Mazda Employee Dinner and Brouhaha over in Hiroshima.

    Or more likely, the recalled, Ford-built installation robot was replaced by a Mazda-built one right after your car rolled to the next stop on the assembly line.

    Don't sweat it. The new one will probably go forever. But in the very least, you've got a 12-month, 12,000-mile warranty on the new one.

    Meade
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    >> I can just hear this vague clunking noise when I encounter a rough spot in the road and I'm driving slowly<<<

    my Protege is also showing the exact same symptoms, at 56,500 miles.

    I wonder if this is covered under the total care extended warranty from Mazda.
  • hboydhboyd Member Posts: 98
    Ya... I won't sweat it. This is my 3rd, new Mazda. I sold my last Protege (1995 ES) with 95K miles on her; I never had a single breakdown or non-wear part failure! In fact my wife and I are considering the MZ6 Wagon late this year to replace an aging 1995 Camry.

    My 1995 Pro ES had no problems with the struts/shocks up until she was sold. I DID have the clutch shutter/judder problem but it never affected operation of the car. The front brakes also "clunked" due to a poor design in the caliper brake sleeves; Again this never affected operation of the car.

    MARTIN
  • barich1barich1 Member Posts: 143
    I think that your clunking problems are most likely sway bar bushings. My parents have two 626s and they both needed sway bar bushings at around that mileage. Same clunking, no other noticeable symptoms.
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  • meinradmeinrad Member Posts: 820
    That is a great tag line!
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    Meade
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    Chris ... Thanks for the info. About how much were those bushings to replace?

    Martin ... Wow, your story sounds strangely familiar. This isn't my first Mazda, or Protege, either. In fact it's my third (or my fourth if you count my wife's 2002 Protege5, which I own by association, lol). My first, a 1992 LX automatic (they didn't come in ES trim then; LX was top of the line) died an early death at 28K miles in a hydroplaning accident. My second Protege was another 1992 LX, this time a 5-speed. Same clutch-chatter thing! Anyway it went 83,000 trouble-free miles, clutch chatter and all. I bought my current Protege, a 2000 ES 5-speed, on May 24, 2000. (We Protege lovers remember our cars' birthdays, don't we?) I'm just a smidge past 75,500 miles right now. I've just made the decision to trade my Protege for a Mazda3S 5-door next May to coincide with avoiding my next state inspection and to get out of the car before my 100,000-mile extended warranty expires. I should be in the low 90Ks by then.

    Nik ... Good question on whether the extended "Easy Care" warranty would cover those bushings. I'll have to get out my literature and take a look. I have a feeling they're going to be listed under "wear items" but it's worth a look. I have a $50 deductible on the warranty, which beats any repair bill these days.

    Meade
  • chicagoprochicagopro Member Posts: 1,009
    Well, if y'all had been at chat last night, you would know that nothing happened to my car this week, for a change. :P

    Still starts right up, despite its series of unfortunate events. ;)
  • hboydhboyd Member Posts: 98
    Well, good news. My brake master cylinder has been replaced out-of-warranty. My dealer's service mgr goodwilled the labor (due to some unusual service mistakes) and Mazda NAO picked up the parts.

    Mechanic still left some brake-fluid grime on vac hoses/lines and parts under the PBU, but still a good job.

    -MARTIN
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    Hello, Mazda owners! I'm considering buying a 1994 Mazda Protege AT with 114,000 miles for my son who is coming home from Europe in a couple of months. I have owned a 1988 Mazda 323 and he had a terrific 1990 626 hatchback that he sold before he went to Europe, still running fine at 165,000 miles. Any of you still have older Proteges out there? Have they held up well? He just needs a cheap reliable car he can drive for a year or so before he takes off somewhere else. Thanks for your suggestions!
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    My 1992 LX was running fine at 83,000 miles when I traded it in 10 years ago.

    My current car is a 2000 Protege ES with 75,000 miles on it, running fine.

    Can you find one newer than 10 years old though?

    Meade
  • jbolltjbollt Member Posts: 736
    Hi all, have been a past participant in this forum, and still read it weekly, well....ok almost daily... :-) Have had 3 Pros over the years, but now the only one is my 22 year old daughter's 2002 LX. I am about to embark on a cross country trip in this car with her, (bringing her back home to Tucson, from Detroit)and have several questions for you knowledgable folks.

    First, the car has about 45,000 miles (I think) and hasn't had spark plugs or wires replaced. I know from personal history, that the wires can be an issue...at least they were on her 1996 LX. We will have only a few hours to pack up her car and get on the road Monday after I arrive by plane...do we change them out, or wait till we get to Tucson, and I have my tools and other resources. (we have no tools or even covered parking in the apt complex she is leaving in Detroit). I could bring some tools on the plane, if someone can advise exactly what tools are needed. The car has been running fine lately, and she even commented on getting 30 MPG on the last tank.

    Second, can anyone from around the Detroit area recommend the best roads to take to begin the trip....AAA office provided trip-tik showing I75 south to almost Dayton, then I70 west to St. Louis. The web based AAA trip-tik suggests taking I94 to somewhere near Chicago, then south on I 57. Anyone have local experience with these roads? Is one way less congested or less construction? Thanks for any and all advice

    Jeff
  • mazdafunmazdafun Member Posts: 2,329
    It always seems busy around there whenever I drive up. I've driven I-75 between Cincinnati and Detroit several times. South of Detroit, it's pretty open. There is currently construction work on the I-75/I-70 interchange, but traffic is still open in all directions as they build the new ramps.

    So far as the wires and plugs, you'll need a metric socket set (I forget the size for the ones that hold down the coil-over plug packs, but it's a small one, like 9 or 10mm), including a deep one designed for spark plugs (metric) and an extension (those plugs are in deep) of at least 3 inches in length. Get some anti-seize compound for use on the threads of the new plugs to help removing them when it's time to replace those. And have a gapping tool to verify the spark plug gaps. The ones I buy from Mazda (NGKs, I think) come pre-gapped and have a shipping cardboard tube around the terminals to protect them.

    FWIW, I replaced my plugs at 30k miles, but am still on the original wires at 52k miles. I plan to change both at 60k miles. I'm averaging 31mpg on my '99 ProLX with the 1.6L engine and AT in mostly local driving. No symptoms of worn wires yet.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    They usually only last about 30K to 40K, and even if they haven't failed completely (hard to miss while your engine sits there and sputters), they've probably already broken down somewhat and started to short out. I replace mine every 30,000 miles or so. When I did it last, about 5,000 miles ago, I noticed an immediate difference in engine smoothness and a MPG increase of about 1-2 mpg.

    Meade
  • jrdwyerjrdwyer Member Posts: 168
    I replaced the secondary cooling fan today in my '95 Protege LX (172K miles). At first I thought the ringing-buzzing type noise was the A/C clutch since it came on when I turned on the A/C and I have experienced this problem on other cars before. But an A/C shop diagnosed it when they did a routine check on the system and topped off the R134.

    The electric fan motor was about $50 new from Mazda and it took me an hour to do in the driveway. I usually curse when doing repairs on small cars with tight engine bays, but this was actually pretty easy.

    First remove the plastic shield above the radiator, the metal shield on the back of the fan motor, and the two bolts holding the secondary fan assembly to the radiator. Then unbolt the bracket holding the radiator to the frame and tilt it forward to allow just enough room to slide the secondary fan assembly out through the front. Swap the fan motors, reattach the blade with locktite and nut and pop it back in.

    Cheers to the engineers who designed the drop-in fans and the floating/rubber damper type setup for the radiator. It sure made this repair much easier.
  • pkuehnpkuehn Member Posts: 6
    My 2000 Pro has been doing the same clunking described
    by several people here. I have it at the dealership as
    I write and their diagnosis was the "sway bar links",
    which I assume means the bushings. Anyway, the good
    news is the Mazda Extended Protection Plan is covering
    the repairs and a loaner car, as they need to keep it
    overnight.
  • justinjustin Member Posts: 1,918
    hey guys (and gals) -

    2002 and 2003 Pro's are the same, right? all come with the 2.0 liter in DX, LX, or ES, right? is this the infamous 2.0 from the 626 that had issues?

    also, at 130hp, it seems kind of underpowered for a 2.0 liter. with an automatic, can a person driving a LOT (she has a 60 mile round trip commute each day at least) expect anywhere near 30mpg's in real life? or is it Civic/Corolla time to get better mileage.

    looking at 02 and 03 automatics, preferably with ABS and bags. good deals to be had on the inventory due to depreciation and the new 3 coming out.

    thanks for the input!

    BTW, my 99 Miata gets 30mpgs, and i sit in rush hour traffic, but it is also a 1.8, not a 2.0. and it is a stick of course. hoping the Pro can get at least that much since it won't be driven as "hard" as i drive my Miata.
  • mazdafunmazdafun Member Posts: 2,329
    I don't recall much difference between 2002/2003 models. I think there was a slight change to the P5 midway through the 2003 model year (subwoofer instead of roof rack being standard, I think).

    The 2.0L in my wife's '03 P5 feels plenty fine, even with the AT (of course, my car is a '99 ProLX with the 1.6L engine and an AT). She gets about 28-29mpg in mixed driving (mostly highway, but it's rush-hour-type highway). She gets about 32-33mpg in non-stop highway driving. The sedan, being lighter and more aerodynamic, will do a little better. The Civic and Corolla will do better, mpg-wise, as their engines and transmissions are set-up more for fuel economy than acceleration-feel (though both will out-accelerate a comparably-equipped Protege/P5, though I think they sound kind of nasty when pushed that hard). I think both cars have taller top gears for highway cruising than the Protege.

    Other than the fuel economy, my wife likes her P5 very much. Her previous car, a Saturn SL2 ('91) got much better fuel economy on the freeway, though not any better in local driving. It was a better highway cruiser (taller top gear again and more aerodynamic shape), though I thought its engine had a coarse note to it.
  • arabamarabam Member Posts: 11
    I was also experiencing the same problem and took my car (2000 ES 53k) today to a local repair shop ... the guy insists that the sway bar bushings and the struts are fine; he told me that the front rotors may need to be replaced !! The brake pads were changed 1.5 yrs ago (at around 35k) at that time they had told me that the rotors were fine ... I am having difficult time to believe that "this clunking" is related to wharped rotors? I may need to take the car to a Mazda dealership; do you have any idea how much this would cost?
  • pkuehnpkuehn Member Posts: 6
    It doesn't cost much. I had the Mazda Extended Protection Plan, so I only paid the $50 deductible, but if I recall correctly, it would have only been $110 or so if I paid myself.
  • rotarykidrotarykid Member Posts: 191
    isn't a bad idea. Personally, if you brought your car to me and I was doing a simple oil change, I would check the swaybar links, bushings, and struts while I have it in the air. These items are common to fail and they make me money. Have them change the oil and while it's in the air, tell the service consultant/writer "i almost forgot, while it's in the air can they check my swaybar links and bushings? I am getting a rattle over bumps." best way to get a quick free diag.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    My clunking is getting more severe. I'm going on a trip this weekend and have work-related plans for the July 4 weekend, so it probably won't be until the first full week of July before I can take my car in. My dealership's service department is pretty adept at finding truthful answers to problems, so I'm fairly certain I'll get the right answer. A little nervous about whether the extended warranty will cover it, but we'll see!

    Meade
  • jjnjjn Member Posts: 3
    I have had my 2001 Protege LXII at the dealership 4 times for the same problem. Each time they say 'cannot duplicate problem'..Then I drive with them and magically they know what it...They have replaced the sway bar bushings, rods and struts. NONE of this has resolved the problem...They insist the car is safe but will not put that in writing.

    Here is the situation..After the car is driven a while and the temperature outside is on the hot side, all of a sudden as you are driving or coasting to a stop, the popping sound comes form what appears to be in the front..It happens also just getting in and out of the car. It sounds like 2 pieces of something are rubbung together and then pop apart. If you rock the car you can hear it too. After the car is parked either overnight or for a couple of hours, then if you drive the noise goes away until after the car is driven several miles. I have duplicated this symtom over 6 times for the dealer and yet they cannot fix it.

    Mazda tech support has been of no help and now the dealer says bring it in again and we can look at it.
    They have done this 4 times...I am losing vacation time from work and becoming very frustrated.

    Any ideas of what this noise is and how to fix it?..I would like to be able to do the dealers' diagnostic job for them by seeing if anyone out there can help.

    thanks,

    joe
  • arabamarabam Member Posts: 11
    The "clunking" that I complained about in Message #2184 is also getting worse in hot weather. One other thing I realized is that the clunking has gotten worse after I had my Potenzas replaced with Yokohamas; kept the same size etc.

    ... similar to your situation my last two trips to the repair shop did not change a thing; and they keep on telling me that "may be rotors - but everything else looks fine!".

    It is really annoying because it basically sounds like something will fail very soon; all the joy of driving is gone!
  • jjnjjn Member Posts: 3
    Hi,

    I really do not think it is your tires. I also had new tires put on....Noise still there. And it does happen more when the car is warm and the outside temp is warm to hot. There are many times that it took me upwards of 5 to 6 tries to get a problem fixed with this car.

    Yhe dealer tells me that even tho I have an extended warranty, that dealer is absorbing the cost of diagnosing the proble. And that since they feel the car is fine, they mayneed to charge for the diagnosis...Well, my opinion is that it is not the customer's fault that the dealer is unable to fix a problem because of poor diagnostics.

    The dealer has told me that they do want to resolve the problem but are at a losss as to what to try next. I have attempted to contact Mazda direct but they will NOT speak to a customer regarding technical problems. I find this unacceptable, but, it is difficult to speak to someone who will not speak to you.

    I am hoping that if enough people start complaining about this problem then maybe Mazda corp will listen.

    So, if anyone else is having the same 'clinking' noise and are concerned for their safety, then please keep on the dealership and continue to contact Mazda.

    With that said, does anyone have any idea how this thumping can be corrected?

    joe
  • jrdwyerjrdwyer Member Posts: 168
    My '95 LX (174K miles) has also been making the same type of sounds you mention when braking to a stop for the last 8 months or so. I just had my fourth set of tires put on last week and I know the problem is not tire related and the shop also gave the brakes an "all good" report. In an earlier post someone mentioned a poor design in the caliper brake sleeves causing a "clunking." Also, my brake rotors are still the originals but the pads were replaced at around 120K miles. I don't feel it is warped rotors because I don't get any pulsing feel when braking. But something is definitely binding or moving improperly in the system and I hope to get this fixed as noises like this annoy me even if they are considered normal.
  • hobbs03hobbs03 Member Posts: 17
    I've got 32k on my 01 LX 2.0. I just replaced the plugs and oil.

    When should I replace the tranny and power steering fluid?

    Also, when I get the brakes done, is it necessary for them to turn the rotors or can I just have them replace the break pads?

    Thanks for any input
  • mazdafunmazdafun Member Posts: 2,329
    I change my AT fluid every 3 years. I average less than 10k miles a year.

    I'm not sure about the power steering fluid. I don't think I've ever changed mine in any of my vehicles (not that it shouldn't be done).

    Turning rotors at a brake job depends on how smooth they are. Most auto mfrs do have a smoothness spec, but I've skipped turning rotors if I thought the rotor surfaces felt fairly smooth to the touch. These days though, rotors seem to be made of softer steel, so you may as well have them machined down smooth as you'll likely replace them with every other set of pads.
  • dewebdeweb Member Posts: 1
    when driving my 1992 protege in stop and go traiff my brkes locks up . change pads ;calitpor rotors still my front brakes lock up.
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  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I've moaned about my underpowered AC before but Friday on the drive home I couldn't get the AC to turn on. Warm air and the little button's light wouldn't go. Five minutes of fiddling with it and suddenly cool air came out once more.

    I'm near due for an oil change so this might be a good time to get Mazda to take a look at my AC and its connections. Bummer
  • hobbs03hobbs03 Member Posts: 17
    Thanks for the response.

    Not to keep hammering, but when you get it replaced are they doing a "flush" or just draining. The reason I ask is that the shop I take my car to offers a flush for $180 v. a "drain" for about $80. They say the flush hooks up some pump to get all the AT fluid out whereas the drain doesnt get everything.

    ALso, I asked Mazda customer service about the PS fluid and they said that it doesn't need to be replaced, just monitor the level.

    Thanks again for your input
  • compensatecompensate Member Posts: 212
    Well, the wife finally passed 100,000 miles on our 1999 Protege ES 5-speed. The car has been very reliable. Outside of regular maintenance items (brakes, oil, filters, plug wires, etc.), the only real issue was having to replace the alternator around 65,000 mils (if I recall correctly). But, other Mazdas I've owned (1986 626 and 1992 Protege) have had similar life expectancies on their alternators, but rarely other problems.

    The only issue we are now having is some hesitation under low rpms, especially in the lower gears. Since the plug wires and plugs have been replaced recently, I've ruled that out. We had Auto Zone hook a diagnostic to the CPU and got a message about a failed vehicle speed sensor that is supposed to be attached to the transmission. The part can only be acquired from Mazda last time I checked and it costs about $200, which I don't have. However, I am not sure that is the real problem. I was told that it could be a problem with clogged fuel injectors, but the dealer wanted a lot of money to professionally clean them.

    Any suggestions?

    Thanks and enjoy your Proteges!! They are great cars!
  • jjnjjn Member Posts: 3
    Hi,

    I am replying to my own posting. Has anyone been able to figure out the cause of the problem I described in message 2188? The dealership said they will 'look ' at it again, but, I think until I can come up with the cause, they will say the same thing ' Can not duplicate the noise'.

    They want me to wait till the problem is severe enough that they can actually see it without needing to troubleshoot.

    This is very frustrating. If I knew what the problem was then I would expect they would pay me...Anyway, any help would be apprecitated.

    joe
  • chicagoprochicagopro Member Posts: 1,009
    jjn, I'm not sure about your problem.

    I had clunking over bumps, and had my front and rear stabilizer links replaced yesterday. My car drives reeeeeally well now, and no more clunking.

    Good luck!
  • civiletticiviletti Member Posts: 86
    I use a bottle of Techron every 6 months to clean injectors. You may try a bottle for each of tne next few fillups to see if that works.
  • compensatecompensate Member Posts: 212
    Try one of the oil change places (Jiffy Lube, etc.). When I owned an auto trans car, I used to tkae it to Jiffy Lube about every 25,000 miles for a flush. I don't think it cost much more than $30 at the time (been a few years), but I expect it will still be MUCH cheaper than having the dealer do it.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    How much?

    I haven't gotten around to doing anything about mine yet.

    P.S. Do you have an extended warranty, and if so, were they covered?

    Meade
  • compensatecompensate Member Posts: 212
    I actually tried using some high-strength cleaner in the gas tank about a month or so ago. It didn't change anything, so then I added another one when the gas tank was nearly empty (hoping to send a concentrated amount of the cleaner to the injectors, but that didn't make a difference either.

    The nearest Mazda dealer (and not one I trust, based upon past experiences) swears that only a professional cleaning will work fully and pretty much said that those bottled cleaners didn't do a good job, but I don't trust this dealer anyway . . . I think he wants to make a sale.

    Does anyone know anything about this vehicle speed sensor that is part of the manual transmission?
  • syd968syd968 Member Posts: 27
    When driving my 2001 Mazda Protégé for more than 3 hours at highway speeds with the A/C ON the blower freezes up. The A/C is set on fresh mode and the fan speed is set either on speed 1 or 2 the whole time. When the blower freezes up you can turn the fan speed up to 3 or 4 but all you get is a hissing noise coming from the blower. The little bit of air that still comes out of the vents when the blower freezes up is still cold. When the blower freezes up I turn the A/C off and the fan off. If you put your hand on the heater box (I think this is the heater box - the black box on the left side behind the glove compartment) you can feel water condensation has built up on it. This water condensation then drips onto the passenger floor. After leaving the A/C and fan off for about five minutes to unfreeze the blower works again and I can turn the A/C and fan on again. If I continue to leave the A/C on at this point it will freeze up again about every 2 hours while driving on the highway.
    This car has had this problem since I purchased it new in 2001. I've had it looked at by Mazda 3 times and have had a new fan blower installed, but this has still not solved the problem.
    Has anyone out there experienced the same problems? Any ideas for how they (Mazda)can fix this? Thanks!
  • jbolltjbollt Member Posts: 736
    You may have a clogged/blocked/kinked drain line. If you don't see water on the ground underneath the car a few minutes after turning off the car and parking...after driving with the A/C on, it would tend to confirm this. The condensation is probably backing up and freezing up "the works" so to speak.
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    and fan at lowest setting is not recommended by many. try keeping the fan at a higher speed.
  • riopelleriopelle Member Posts: 132
    >Cross posted on Protege list<

    Hi Pro folks.

    My P5 is at 32,000 miles and will be 3 yrs old nex week. Mazda recommends a 3 yr/30k maintenance that includes flushing the engine and replacing the spark plugs, amongs other things, totally about $350. I have reservations that an engine would need new plugs this quick since most engines don't need a tune-up until 100k, Any advice?

    Does the new 2.3 in the 3 have the same maintenance schedule? I am tempted to save the bucks and put them toward a new 3 if my 5 really needs this,

    Thanks everyone.
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