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BMW 335d 2009+

shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
Well, it finally looks like it's going to happen, BMW is finally bringing some of their wonderful diesel engined cars to the U.S.A. (the 335d being one of the first). Personally, I can't wait. ;)

http://bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Uniquely/FutureTechnologies/EfficientDynamics- /AdvancedDiesel.aspx

Thoughts?

Best Regards,
Shipo
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Comments

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,854
    I think I mentioned that I drove a 535d last fall. It's a great engine- it almost made me forgive the looks of the E60... :P
    I'm looking forward to testing the 335d.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Yeah, I think I remember you saying something to that effect. ;-)

    Now, five model years into the E60, I'm still not at all sold on its looks, and even a 3.5 liter diesel under the hood can only dull the looks so much. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    The 335d offers 328i performance at a 5-series price. All to get an extra 2 MPG?

    Plus the 328i weighs less and has a much higher rev limit (sportier and more fun to drive). I don't get it - am I missing something?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    I'm not sure where you're getting your figures from, however, I expect the 335d to price out at a very similar price to the 335i. I also expect the 335d to easily out perform a 328i between say 20 and 120 mph, all while getting some eight to ten more miles out of each gallon of fuel.

    Needless to say it's all mere speculation until the rubber actually hits the pavement here in the States. ;)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I'm in agreement with you. I would expect at least 40 mpg on the highway. Idling in traffic a diesel sips fuel compared to a gas engine. I read some article at some point on gas vs diesel, and while I don't exactly remember the numbers, I seem to recall a gas engine idling for an hour uses a gallon of gas, a diesel will use 1/4 gallon.

    I would also expect the diesel to be heavier due to added weight of engine and associated components and additional pollution "stuff".

    Now hopefully it will come in an xi version. :tongue
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Regarding the idling process. Gasoline engines run "rich", especially at idle, and that means an air/fuel ratio of about 14,0:1. Modern diesel engines on the other hand run "lean", no, as you were. Modern diesel engines run very "lean". I came across a paper in the S.A.E. archives a few weeks ago that was discussing this very aspect of Dr. Diesel's latest incarnation, and was delighted to learn that traditionally, diesel engines would idle with an air/fuel ratio of about 60:1, however, recent injector advances have been able to make that ratio seem positively wasteful as new engines typically idle at 100:1! Yikes, talk about lean. Yeesh. ;)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I went to the BMW UK website and got specs for the 335d and compared them to specs for the 325i and 330i (I split the difference between them for acceleration and MPG).

    325i SE/330i SE - 39.8/39.2 MPG (imperial); 0-62 in 6.7/6.1 secs
    Average (328i) - 39.5 MPG (32.9 MPG US); 0-62 in 6.4 secs

    335d SE - 42.2 MPG (35.1 MPG US); 0-62 in 6.2 secs

    335d SE - £33,610
    335i SE - £31,550

    So according to the BMW UK website, compared to the 328i, the 335d is 0.2 seconds quicker to 62 MPH and gets 2.2 MPG better economy. The 335d is also £2,000 more expensive than the 335i. Oh yeah, the 335d weighs 300 lbs more than the 328i.

    Sure, the low-end torque and mid-range grunt is a plus, but it's at the expense of a free-revving, high RPM gas engine that, in my opinion, is what makes a BMW so much fun to drive.

    Unless my facts are wrong (and I admit we don't know how much it will cost here), it looks like the 335d is an overweight, overpriced pig.
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,854
    Car and Driver tested a 330d and knocked off a six second 0-60 time. They predict that the 335d will do 0-60 in the mid-fives. Also remember that there are 428 pound-feet of torque available from 1750 to 2250 rpm. And I'll bet most folks will average 30-35 mpg overall. While the new diesels aren't the high rpm thoroughbreds you and I prefer, I think an oil burner may just find its way into my garage.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Sorry, the numbers I got off the UK website say otherwise.

    And for an apples to apples reference, this from the BMW UK website:

    330d SE - £30,285; 46.3 MPG (38.5 MPG US); 0-62 MPH in 6.7 secs
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,399
    Here is what I found

    Here are the stats oil burner aspiring pistonheads want to know. The 3.0-liter inline six cylinder twin-turbo diesel engine develops 265 hp and, get this, 425 lb.-ft. of torque. That's enough to sling the big [non-permissible content removed] X5 xDrive 35d from 0-62 mph in 7.2 seconds, and power the 335d from 0-62 mph in a respectable 6.2 seconds. Of course, the sprint time doesn't reflect the ENORMOUS in-gear shove. Perhaps more saliently, the diesel X5 gets 19/25 mpg, while the 335d clocks in at 23/33 mpg.

    Regards,
    OW
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I assume those are US EPA economy estimates - which are better for comparing apples to apples vs. the 328. The numbers you found show a 5 MPG improvement compared to the 328i. That's pretty good, but not enough to get excited about, IMO.

    Your numbers do confirm that the 335d is only .2 or .3 secs quicker from 0-60 MPH than the 328i.

    Price wise, who knows? In the UK, the 335d is quite a bit more expensive than the 335i - and about the same price as a 530i SE or 525i M Sport.

    I suppose for the American torque-loving public, a lower revving engine with enormous grunt has some appeal. I imagine the thrill of punching it from a stop and feeling the thrust, but then as the tach needle hits 4000 RPM - which is when things just start getting interesting - I run out of revs and have to upshift. I grew up driving high revving I-4's (and still do), so I know I'm biased. I love to run through the gears to keep an engine on the boil above 4000 RPM, so a stump puller with a 4500 RPM redline just isn't my cup of tea.

    I'm guessing the 335d will cost about $8,000 more than the 328i - and I'd choose the 328i even if they cost the same.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,399
    Since I lease, I'll look at the 335d, 335i or 135 in Q3. I love the torque and know it is a different experience but appreciate the revs as well. In th U.S. cars I've driven, the torque was the key at lower revs with the V-8. The small blocks were where the balance was between rpm/torque, particularly in the higher compression engines.

    I've never driven a diesel but the N54 is a sweet engine and I'll be interested in the difference between the TT NA vs. TT diesel. The urea thing is a question mark for me but since it will be in the maintenance plan, worry is mitigated to some extent.

    If the d costs the same as the 335, that will eliminate some of the advantage in efficiency and most of the torque advantage for me. The tt's have their Achilles heel with the oil cooler thing if you track the car but who would track a diesel!?

    The advantage should be efficiency so I was a little surprised the MPG wasn't more than 23/33. I was hoping more like 25/38.

    Regards,
    OW
  • idoc2idoc2 Posts: 78
    In the UK gasoline is I believe above $8/imp gal. I don't know what the price of diesel is, but I suspect that unless it is substantially more than gasoline then even a small improvement in fuel efficiency may be attractive.

    The US market is obviously quite different. In New England diesel runs about $2.65/gal vs premium at $2.40/gal. At these prices unless a BMW diesel offers either a substantial performance advantage and/or substantial fuel economy advantage there is no way they can demand a substantial purchase price premium. Of course, only time will tell but I highly doubt the typical 3 series BMW customer will choose a diesel. Perhaps an X5 customer might. My guess is that unless gasoline gets well above $5/gal the market for a diesel sports sedan will be very small and BMW will end up selling these at huge discounts and/or great lease deals. Again only time will tell. ;)

    IDOC
  • Some additional info on the 328/335 discussion:

    0-60 times from BMW and achieved by car&driver

    328: 6.3sec (bmw), 6.1sec (C&D)
    335: 5.4sec (bmw), 4.8sec (C&D)

    All were achieved by the sedans with a manual transmission. Clearly what you can see here is the estimates for the 335i are underrated. It remains to be seen if the 335d is more like the 328 or the 335. I'm guessing more like the 335.

    The other point to make is that a 0-60 time is essentially irrelevant unless you are at a dragstrip. Also, the 0-60 times by C&D are achieved by dropping the clutch at high rpm, a tactic that is encouraged by your BMW service department. Point is, "real world" acceleration figures, such as 5-60mph times and top gear 30-50 or 50-70 times, are much more indicative of performance, at least IMHO. And it is in this area where a diesel, with massive torque down low will shine -- especially compared to the 328i. To say the 335d gives "328 performance at 5-series price" on the basis of a single statistic is a simplification.

    With regards to price, also remember that the UK figures you quoted are for a 335i with a manual and a 335d with an automatic (sadly, the only way it comes). To compare "apples to apples" as fedman is so interested in, you'd need to compare the 335i with an auto, at which point you see that the 2000 eng. pound difference in prices shrinks to 465 pounds -- a big drop.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,399
    At the end of the day, the 335i would then be a screaming bargain for a performance oriented purchase given price parity.

    Conclusion: Skip the diesel...go either the 328 for economy or 335i for high performance.

    Regards,
    OW
  • nkeennkeen Posts: 316
    The UK press, especially Car magazine, tends to be pro-diesel. From my experience driving lesser turbo diesels such as the Renault Clio, I'd venture that the diesel BMWs might offer a great, but different driving experience. I think highlandpete has commented on that difference. I doubt that the 335d would give that immediate, satisfying off the line shove that a big pushrod American V8 with automatic delivers, but these diesels make for great two lane cruising at moderate speeds along with effortless passing with a manual trans, due to the bags of low end torque. You can argue that torque doesn't matter with a manual transmission because of the pleasure of rowing the gears, but try that all day under European conditions -- there are reasons beyond economy that diesels are liked over there. I haven't liked the automatics I've driven with diesels due to the lack of punch off the line (e.g., older Mercedes).

    But I haven't driven the 335d.;)
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,399
    I would pass on the 335d economy for 10-15% gain over the 335i if the price is higher. 300/300 is good for me at an average of 22 mpg with the driving I do. If it's price parity, perhaps but not at additional cost.

    Regards,
    OW
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,311
    diesels in Europe several times over the past six years or so and have grown to really like them. The first three were 1.9 litre Tdi's in Audi A3 or A4's & a Passat. After that I enjoyed an A4 on a vacation & a few Peugots in England on business trips. All delivered over 40 mpg (US gallons) & provided nice acceleration. The Audis showed me what a properly-handling vehicle with a diesel was all about, and I would have bought one in a heartbeat back here after returning home, if it were possible. It wasn't then (2001) and it isn't now.

    I don't want to wave my (let's say ego) in the air with the biggest, baddest diesel (or gas motor, for that matter) that there is. I just want a 2 or 2.5 litre diesel in a vehicle designed for good handling. The BMW 2 or 2.5 or the Audi equivalent would suit me just fine. It doesn't look like it's going to be available for the next couple of years however, if ever.

    Honda (Acura) is bringing their 2.2 litre diesel to the U.S. for the TSX & one of their SUV's either this year or next. I'm following that closely, as it more nearly meets my desires than the big BMW motor. Plus which, I'm not sure how long it'll take for the whole diesel thing to settle down at the BMW (& possibly Audi) dealers.

    I may end up driving a new gas engine car for a couple or three years while it all settles out, but I'm very much predisposed to get a diesel in a premium brand, if I can do it without worrying about getting to 60 in under 6 (or 5) seconds.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Now that's logic I can agree with.

    The TSX diesel will probably weigh 400-500 lbs less than the 335d. 40 MPG from a peppy 2.2L diesel makes a lot of sense.
  • nkeennkeen Posts: 316
    re TSX -- will it be available with a manual trans?
  • nkeennkeen Posts: 316
    re TSX -- will it be available with a manual trans? Auto only is the downside of the 335d.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,311
    Don't know yet, but sincerely hope so -- without a manual, I won't buy it. However, since the Tsx is the European (& Australian?) Accord, I would imagine the diesel with a manual is the standard (sorry) setup. I guess we'll find out in the next few months.

    It may be available later this year, or possibly not until next. I've heard both versions, but nothing definitive yet.
  • bhill2bhill2 Posts: 1,404
    Aw geez, are you telling me that BMW is actually now planning to sell a 3 Series without an available manual? In the words of Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles, "now I am depressed."

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv, 2001 Jaguar XK cnv, 1985 MB 380SE (the best of the lot)

  • nkeennkeen Posts: 316
    Yep, I think the 330d is the top of the range for manual diesels in the UK, perhaps other European countries also.
  • Anyone here that's been to/lives in Europe (perhaps a BMW employee or mechanic) know what the mechanical difference is between the 330d and 335d?

    I ask because there was little difference between the 325 and 330 when sold in the US except engine software, intake and exhaust. So technically, for the tuner it was cheaper to buy the 325 and buy a 330's ECU as an instant plug-in upgrade.

    And since the 330d and 335d are both twin-variable-vane-turbo 3.0L inline-6 diesels, would it be possible to one day do an ECU swap in the 330d manual and get the car you want for less?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "I ask because there was little difference between the 325 and 330 when sold in the US except engine software, intake and exhaust. So technically, for the tuner it was cheaper to buy the 325 and buy a 330's ECU as an instant plug-in upgrade."

    Ummm, no, not even close. There are a great many differences between the 325i and the 330i, not the least of which are the three-track intake on the 330i versus the single track intake on the 325i, the larger and more robust transmission on the 330i as well as the larger and more capable brakes on the 330i. The truth if the matter is that it is FAAAAR cheaper to buy a 330i than it is to buy a 325i and then try to upgrade it.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Discounting factors outside of the engine, all components were compatible, yes? I believe I mentioned the intake. And I'm no BMW tuner, but I'm guessing it wouldn't cost $6K to get an extra 40hp out of a 325i. One might even save the 100lbs by not cloning the 330i entirely.

    The real point to my question was if the 330d comes in manual and so far the 335d comes in auto, is there anything preventing a person from upgrading their 330d's engine to 335d level?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "And I'm no BMW tuner, but I'm guessing it wouldn't cost $6K to get an extra 40hp out of a 325i."

    Sorry, not buying. Horsepower isn't some magic thing that you can just change some software and presto-chango, more power (unless you've got an artificially aspirated engine). The fact is that unless you tear into the engine (or add a blower), you aren't going to get any kind of a meaningful bump in power, period full stop, the end. Believe it or not, any such changes will far exceed the ~$3,500 (apples-to-apples) cost difference between the two cars.

    There is an old adage, "If you want to make your BMW faster, buy a faster BMW."

    Regarding a cost effective method of upgrading of a 330d to a 335d level of power, I kind of doubt that one too. True, both engines have forced induction, however, my bet is that due to the turbocharger, induction, injector, and cooling differences (intercooler, oil cooler, and radiator), the cost of bumping the 330d output to 335d levels will either dramatically shorten the life-span of the engine/drivetrain and/or cost far more than simply buying a 335d in the first place.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Okay, no offense, you've been polite enough but that old addage is more like an old wive's tale. Its a purist convention, but it has no real factual meaning.

    Case and point: if you want a fast BMW, buy a 135i, slap on a Vishnu kit or whatever is available, and run with the M-class. Sorry, but it won't be long the cheapest BMW coupe can be made to perform similarly (not identical) to the most expensive without much investment.

    I have it on good authority that the ECU and intake swap can be done on a 325i/330i, and is successful in making up the power difference. They are otherwise almost the exact same engine, and swapping parts does create bolt-on power. I however do not know how much that would cost, so I won't argue the bang/buck further.

    I may not be a BMW tuner, but I've put a wrench to just about everything else. On almost any NA engine, 40bhp is child's play without having to crack open the engine. Ideal intake/exhaust + ECU tune will get you there on a lot of applications. On boosted engines the difference can be even more with those same mods (100+bhp). Its not magic, its engineering. 100bhp bump for the 335i is just a start. BMW doesn't just slap an engine together and it gets what it gets. They PICK a power level they want it to have, and PROGRAM it to operate within that range. Aftermarket engineers and tuners have a lot of room to work with.

    So knowing that BMW has in the past used the same engine but with slightly different power levels, I was asking what the real mechanical difference is between 330d and 335d. I did a little homework and I think I answered my own question. The 325d and 330d use single-turbo setups and 335d is dual-turbo. I have my answer, and no they are not compatible with the 335d.

    Thank you for the commentary.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    On almost any NA engine, 40bhp is child's play without having to crack open the engine

    Yeah but the 5 or 6 grand to get you there is more expensive than buying an upgraded model. There is no way you can get 40 hp out of a na engine, in the 3 liter range, imo, without some serious modifications to the intake, flow, exhaust, ECU and I don't know what else. I might add...on the cheap. If it were in fact that easy, the manufacturers wouldn't "leave" that much hp on the table for the taking.

    Granted it's much easier with forced induction, but that's another topic.
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