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Mitsubishi Outlander vs. Subaru Forester

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Comments

  • >> A balanced package will have acceleration, grip, braking, and handling, not just a slalom.

    Slalom is a combination of handling and quickness. Outlander passes cars in a busy traffic with great confidence and ease: fun to drive.

    Does these add excitement for you: dated tranny, cheap interior, cheap audio, lack of modern tech, borrowed styling?

    For me a balanced package is more then you've mentioned.
  • >> Link was provided above, and look who's talking.

    No, that link does not have any info that "Both Outlander and Caliber/Compass are supplied the same AWD system from Borg Warner", so it appears to be just your specuation.

    This is a link to my local Subaru dealer:
    http://www.evanston.subaru.com/index.htm
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Remember you said the iPod interface was not a factory option?

    Use your own link, the XT priced at $30,116 indeed has the iPod interface.
  • comem47comem47 Posts: 394
    I don't check this group for a few days and WWIII has broken out in the mean time !!! (19 new messages)

    Reminds me of a Star Trek episode "Let this be your last battlefield" where Bele and Lokai who are the last survivors of a race war (both 1/2 black and 1/2 white, but the mirror image of each other) are still keeping up the battle after everyone else is dead on their planets -fighting over who is more superior.

    http://tinyurl.com/belelokai

    I think you two can agree to disagree.

    Now if this much energy went into solving the country's problems we'd have it beat!!!

    :blush:
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,109
    Reminds me of a Star Trek episode "Let this be your last battlefield" ...

    Certainly this discussion won't end like the story did! :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The posts were moved from another thread.

    It all started when the OP asked about the Forester and Santa Fe ... I have no idea why the Outlander even became part of the conversation. It was a major detour.

    Now at least it's in the right thread.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 40,871
    The Outlander was part of the conversation because it's a direct competitor to the Forester and the rest of them in the Crossover SUV Comparison discussion. It did get a bit two-sided there though.

    It was more like Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra to me, Comem47. :-)

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • Oh no, I did not say that about iPod.

    You however said that "Both Outlander and Caliber/Compass are supplied the same AWD system from Borg Warner", but you still did not provide any info. The link you posted has no mention of Outlander.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It's a joint venture, and it's not like Chrysler is going to say "we used a Mitsubishi engine" or Hyundai is going to say "we sourced a shared Borg Warner AWD system" or Mitsu will say "we all sourced the CVT from JATCO".

    Instead each will put their own tag on it, trying to brand it as their own, hiding the origin of those components.
  • >> It's a joint venture, and it's not like Chrysler is going to say "we used a Mitsubishi engine" or Hyundai is going to say "we sourced a shared Borg Warner AWD system" or Mitsu will say "we all sourced the CVT from JATCO".

    .
    Oh, I see, so you don't have any proof. You just made an assumption, but presented this as fact that all 3 cars "are supplied the same AWD system from Borg Warner"! Why would you do that?

    Do you have at least a link which would confirm that 2007 or 2010 generation of Outlander is a part of a "joint venture" with Chrysler?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Joint ventures make sense because economies of scale allow each of the 3 to share costs. They used a Mitsu engine, a Borg Warner AWD system, and a CVT supplied by JATCO. It's cost-efficient.

    If you'd like to believe something else, that's fine with me.
  • >> Joint ventures make sense because economies of scale allow each of the 3 to share costs. They used a Mitsu engine, a Borg Warner AWD system, and a CVT supplied by JATCO. It's cost-efficient.
    If you'd like to believe something else, that's fine with me.


    Wow, "Joint ventures make sense", that's good to know. It is also good to know that you don't have any evidence but you "believe" that "Both Outlander and Caliber/Compass are supplied the same AWD system from Borg Warner." But why would you want everybody else to "believe" in that? Hey, be a man and admit that you made it up.
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,109
    You say yes, he says no
    He says stop and you say go, go, go
    Oh, no!


    Hey, guys, this bickering is becoming distracting. Can we let it go? :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • comem47comem47 Posts: 394
    Just like the republicans vs democrats always trying to score one for their side vs doing the people's business, in this case they are not bringing something meaningful to the table, only trying to score points. Meanwhile the country is in meltdown.

    :cry:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    You got it. :shades:
  • >> He says stop and you say go, go, go

    Tidester, are you taking sides and comparing us?

    Once you've said here "We are comparing vehicles and not people!"

    Your last comment generated 2 more posts irrelevant to the subject we were discussing, and "he" did not "stop" after all, but instead he made a post irrelevat to the topic.

    But let's get back to the actual topic. Tidester, do you have anything to say about any relevance of Borg Warner AWD system to the Outlander?
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,109
    Tidester, are you taking sides and comparing us?

    Absolutely not.

    Tidester, do you have anything to say about any relevance of Borg Warner AWD system to the Outlander?

    Only to the extent that the discussion remain friendly, informative and peaceful. :shades:

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Let's stick to those rules, and in some (many?) cases we'll have to agree to disagree.

    The GEMA alliance meant parts sharing for cost efficiencies. I don't think it would make any sense at all for that joint venture to source 3 different AWD systems, from the same supplier no less, in this case Borg Warner.

    chelentano says I'm fabricating this, and he's entitled to his opinion. For me this is common sense, call it inference, not fabrication.

    He's sending me on a fool's errand, to find a source to confirm these are the same, but of course each manufacturer wants to brand their system differently, and Borg Warner would lose money if they don't play along.

    I'm no fool, so I make the logical deduction that Borg Warner supplies the same system to this alliance's near-identical powertrains. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. I do not need to see a DNA test to identify a duck, though others may and I guess what tidester is saying is I have to respect that, so I will.

    If he wants to believe that Borg Warner gives Mitsubishi preferential treatment and supplies them with a superior AWD system to use with the same basic 2.4l engine and CVT transmission, then that's fine with me, we can agree to disagree.

    Cheers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Speaking of fools' errands, I checked out the card recommended here (by guess who?), and read the fine print.

    Did you know that the 3% rebate only applies to the first $600 in monthly purchases? So you're only earning 3% up to $18. Then it drops to just 1%.

    No thanks, I'll keep my Chase Subaru card. I used $1500 to lower the price of my purchase, and already have $600 saved up for free service, accessories, etc. :shades:

    That lowers TCO even more.
  • >> The GEMA alliance meant parts sharing for cost efficiencies. I don't think it would make any sense at all for that joint venture to source 3 different AWD systems, from the same supplier no less, in this case Borg Warner.

    Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance was not evolved with AWD systems, just engines.

     
    >> For me this is common sense, call it inference, not fabrication. He's sending me on a fool's errand, to find a source to confirm these are the same, but of course each manufacturer wants to brand their system differently, and Borg Warner would lose money if they don't play along.


    It’s not a “common sense”, it’s just a subjective speculation. Speaking of “common sense”, why Mitsubishi would be so special to require such a secrecy? Porsche, Hyundai, Acura, Ford and Mercedes - all openly use some form of Borg Warner AWD technology. BMW and Subaru also openly use Mitsubishi turbochargers. And this kind of information is not easy to hide anyway: “if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck “.
     
    To me “common sense” is that Mitsubishi already owns excellent Dakar tested AWD technology and it has no need to buy it from someone else.

    >> If he wants to believe that Borg Warner gives Mitsubishi preferential treatment and supplies them with a superior AWD system …

    No need to “believe”, just facts please, that would be a common sense.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Why would Borg Warner supply 3 different AWD systems for an alliance that shares the same basic powertrain (engine+trans)? That wouldn't make any sense.

    I don't understand the sentence about Dakar ... Mitsu outsources the AWD, Borg Warner supplies it.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree.
  • Disclaimer: I'm not picking sides. This is merely information...

    Just like Subaru, Mitsubishi develops and builds their AWD and 4WD technology in-house (this includes their AYC, ACD, ASC, ABS, and the system that integrates them all to produce S-AWC). They do not use Borg-Warner's system, one of the reasons being the integration of the aforementioned technologies.
    In fact, the company has no relationship with Borg-Warner. For example, Mitsubishi sources their dual-clutch TC-SST from German transmission maker Getrag. This tranny will be available on the European-spec Outlander equipped with the PSA sourced 2.2l diesel starting in December (why would Mitsubishi adapt a Borg-Warner AWD system to a Getrag dual-clutch transmission when they could get an all-in-one solution?).

    FWIW, I in my humble opinion the Forester and the Outlander (especially the freshened 2010) are the top 2 picks in the small CUV category.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It would help to find a good source with more detail.

    I'm sure they each use their own software/ECU/tuning, but are the bones of the system, i.e. the metal parts, really different? GEMA does that for the engines.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Engine_Manufacturing_Alliance

    An excerpt:

    Each manufacturer has configured their variants of the basic GEMA design differently based on their engineering needs and standards, so consumers may experience very different power, fuel efficiency, and "feel" from each manufacturer.

    Yeah, wiki is weak, I know.

    Wonder if we can look up part numbers from a dealer's web site and find out exactly what Borg Warner calls those parts. Also, where is it made? Japan, USA, somewhere else? What did the parts content percentages on your Monroney say? They give a % of parts that come from each country, wonder how much was made in Japan?

    You wrote:

    Mitsubishi develops and builds their AWD and 4WD technology in-house

    Develops, maybe, but builds? I don't think that's the case.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Let's look for one of these for the Outlander, that may help us out.

    image

    The Forester is 100% made in Japan, even the parts are sourced there.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    ...finding one on Google images, anyone keep their Monroney?
  • piastpiast Posts: 269
    I do. From my label (07 Outlander XLS):
    Major Source of Foreign Parts Content: JAPAN 100%
    Final Assembly Point: OKAZAKI, JAPAN
    Country of Origin: Engine: JAPAN
    Transmission: JAPAN
    Outlander is not part of GEMA.
  • rcpaxrcpax Posts: 580
    The GEMA influenced engine is the i4 2.4L gasoline engine. the 3.0L one is basically designed and built by Mitsubishi.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Correct. I compared base 4 bangers because we wanted the fuel efficiency.

    Question - are the AWD systems different, 2.4l vs. 3.0l models? Reliability dropped when the 2.4l was introduced (per CR).

    I ask because Subaru has about 4 different systems, and they're all called "Symmetrical AWD". It's basically just a marketing label.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    FWIW, Borg Warner does have a manufacturing plant in Fukuroi City, Japan, as per their own web site.
This discussion has been closed.