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Mitsubishi Outlander vs. Subaru Forester

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Comments

  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,235
    Can you use the loyalty cash on an EVO?
    Even if Mitsu said yes the wife would say no.

    Autoblog seems to like the GT although they still haven't done a full review. Well, they didn't like the brakes and didn't like the glove box door. But most everything else seemed favorable. Link: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/20/first-drive-2010-mitsubishi-outlander-gt-is-a- -cuv-we-can-live-w/
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Don't ask, just do it. ;)

    Will you tow? Edmunds complained about brake pedal fade. That might be a concern if you haul very heavy loads.

    The EVO's brakes won't fade. Tell your wife you picked it for safety reasons, LOL.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Whoa....where'd the roof rack go?

    Leather on the dash looks great.

    Mitsubishi upped the compression ratio of the Outlander's 3.0-liter V6 from 9.0:1 to 10.5:1

    Interesting because typically a high compression ratio like that would prefer premium fuel.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,235
    Towing: We will equip whatever we buy to tow in case the need arises but we've no plans to.

    The leather, in fact most of the interior, looks pretty nice. It looks like a good upgrade.

    The roof rack is gone on the GT but is on the lesser trim lines. On the GT you can get cross bars for strapping things down but no side rails. Not a great move IMO but then I can't envision using it personally so I suppose the weight savings & slight boost in aero is fine for me.

    Fuel: While indications to me are that premium is not required, I am withholding final judgment until I see the car & what it says. If the Outlander does require premium I will most likely drop it from consideration.
  • comem47comem47 Posts: 390
    "Mitsubishi upped the compression ratio of the Outlander's 3.0-liter V6 from 9.0:1 to 10.5:1

    Interesting because typically a high compression ratio like that would prefer premium fuel. "

    Way back when, yes, but Hyundai has been doing it for years (check out Santa Fe for example 10.4 /1 with 87 octane)
  • tazzitazzi Posts: 23
    Thank you Steve! I appreciate the information. Not quite ready to buy yet...am waiting to see what happens at the work place first. Hopefully there will be good deals to be had next month too.
  • steverstever Ex Yooper, just arrived in New MexicoPosts: 40,538
    The TMV trend is flat for the Forester, and we don't have a prediction up for the 2010 Outlander for some reason. Looks like you'll be able to get a good deal on an '09, assuming there's any left in stock that meet your criteria.

    True Market Value®: Predicted Price Trends

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • tazzitazzi Posts: 23
    Technically, I can drive a stick but the clutch doesn't usually enjoy the ride very much :blush:

    I'm planning on buying - was looking at the $25k range +/-. Of course, I don't want to have to pay anymore than I have to :)

    Fuel economy is important but I live in the foothills so it has to have enough pep to get me home and get through the snow/ice.

    Reliability is a very important factor. My current car is a Land Rover - I love it but it's expensive to maintain.

    Fun is an important factor too though! I have to love my car or it's pretty pointless. That's why I have avoided test drives up until now. If I drive it and love it, I'll buy it. Even if it's not the best choice. That's how I ended up with my Land Rover. ;)

    So, I'm trying to be good this time around and check out the models online first, get some feedback and only test drive those that sound like a good driving investment.

    Most of my driving is to work which is about 15 miles away. But I visit family all the time and they are anywhere from 2-3 hours away so the car has to be comfortable.

    My Mom has an Outback and I didn't find it to be very comfortable over a long drive - but that could just be the passenger seat :confuse: How comfortable is the Forester?

    More than likely, I'll still with the 4 cylinder of any model unless I have to get a V6. I don't tow anything and the traffic in California makes it impossible to drive above 45 mph on a freeway :D Well most of the time anyway. But if the V6 is what I will need to get me to Tahoe, that is what I will buy.

    Another question....do all the Forester's have the cheap materials? Or if you get the leather/premium package are they a bit better?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The seats were nice, too, I mentioned that when I wrote my review a long time ago. Wonder if they upgraded things like the headliner and arm rest covers?

    I use my roof rack all the time. Even on the minivan I've used it a lot.

    Are you looking at the XLS or GT? Or the 2.4l? I ask because the '09 has a $1500 rebate (listed on the right margin). With your loyalty rebate, that's about 10% off a basic 4 banger, a steep discount. The 2010 has 0% for 3 years.

    Forester doesn't have major incentives and won't any time soon. Supply is still very short. Fitzmall has just one single XT model, and that's a dealership with 3 locations.

    What else is on your short list? Test drive a manual trans Forester X Premium with the all-weather package. It's arguably the best value in the Forester lineup. In the mpg threads people are reporting high 20s-low 30s all the time.

    What are you trading in? An '07?
  • tazzitazzi Posts: 23
    Thank you! Very good information. Fun is important and so is reliablity.

    This is going to be tough
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    $25k or so...let's see.

    Here's a good no-haggle dealer in the Mid-Atlantic area:

    http://fitzmall.com/

    Prices include freight, add just $99 processing, and tax.

    At the low end, a 2.5X Premium with the All-weather package starts at $23,154. That gets you 17" alloys, heated cloth seats/mirrors and wiper de-icer, tinted windows, rear seats that recline, and a neat fold-out tray to seperate the kids. It's a good value and the best selling model.

    For 5 extra HP get a PZEV model, starting at $23,309. Even at that low price you get a moonroof "big as the Texas sky" as MotorWeek put it.

    You can step up to a Limited with heated/perforated leather, 6CD, fog lights, auto climate control, etc. for $24,811. Again the PZEV would give you 175hp and starts at $25,078. You asked about interior upgrades - with the Limited, yes, you get a leather steering wheel cover and a leather shift knob as well, plus the fabrics on the door panels is an alcantara similar to what's on the EVO. Lots of little extras you won't notice until you've owned it for a while, too.

    Don't expect a premium interior, though, at this price level, you'll only be disappointed. In either of these.

    The XT Premium starts at $25,337. So you trade leather seats for the turbo, basically. Check out Edmunds road tests, the Outlander had a quicker slalom but the Forester had better braking, lateral grip, and acceleration.

    XT Limiteds without Navi are sold out in all 3 of their locations. Told ya supply was short. I think when they do have them in stock they run about $27 grand.

    What year Outback? The Forester sits higher, so it's easier to get in and out. The seat is at a level where you basically just slide in sideways, not up or down. We previously owned a 98 Forester (loved it) and an 02 Legacy (OK, but bland), so we much prefer the Foresters. They're lighter and more nimble, easier to park, tighter turning radius, more economical. Just more fun.

    You want fuel economy and power, which is why I asked if you can drive stick, LOL. I don't think you'll find both, except maybe a RAV4 V6, but that vehicle has other issues best left for another thread.

    Drive them to see what you find adequate. My wife gets enough speeding camera tickets to convince me she does not need more than 175hp, and she does get good mileage, usually 24-30 mpg or so.

    Reliability - this month's CR (Dec 09 p. 63) is a worthy read. Subaru has 3 vehicles in the Most Reliable list, Mitsu didn't make the list. That doesn't mean they are unreliable, just not among the very best.

    I have to love my car

    Absolutely.

    get me to Tahoe

    Edmunds member "kens" loved telling how the cops at the bottom of the mountain would stop other cars and force them to put on tire chains, but wave him on by with his Forester, because they know every Subaru has AWD. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    fushigi is shopping so hopefully he can fill you in on what street prices he's seeing in your price range for the Outlander.

    Best of luck car shopping.
  • steverstever Ex Yooper, just arrived in New MexicoPosts: 40,538
    My Mom has an Outback and I didn't find it to be very comfortable over a long drive - but that could just be the passenger seat How comfortable is the Forester?

    Not much of a data set, but I have a '97 Outback and my sister has an '05 Forester that I've driven on the highway between Virginia and Tennessee 3 or 4 times now (9 hour stretches each way, sharing the driving).

    Her car is more comfortable than mine.

    Part of is may be that the Forester has a more upright seating position - a bit more like my minivan - and I like that. Her cloth is nicer than my leather too.

    The trouble with test driving cars is that you rarely get enough seat time to really tell how a new car is going to fit you.

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Let's remember he said $25 grand was his budget.

    The GT starts at $30 grand and that's with cloth seats and no Navi.

    That quick slalom doesn't apply to Outlanders in his price range because the GT deletes the roof rails and has who knows what other upgrades to help it achieve that slalom speed.

    I quoted street prices for a Forester XT Premium for $25,337. That's with discounts, but I doubt you'll find a GT for that price.

    I'm sure you can get an XLS for that sort of money, but not a GT. Remember it's a new model for 2010 and will have no incentives, at least right now.

    So the question is, how much Outlander can you get for $25 grand? Help the guy out.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,235
    Headliners don't concern me but padded arm rests and comfortable seating positions definitely do. I like a padded dash as well although I can't really say why :) since it doesn't really see use. I guess they just feel a bit more upscale.

    XLS or GT and it will be nicely loaded. More or less everything but the rear entertainment. Equipped as close as I can the XLS is like $4K less than the GT. The GT does have more "stuff" but the main functional difference at that point is the S-AWC v. the regular AWD of the XLS.

    An '09 might make more financial sense to buy but may cost more int he long run since the '10 is more economical. And I'd like the '10's improvements in cabin, stereo, and should I get a nav-equipped one the free traffic.

    Mitsu is running a special for Sam's Club members but for the '10 Outie it's only for leases. http://www.samsclubauto.com/mitsubishi.aspx

    Manual-equipped is a non-starter. My wife won't learn stick and I get tired of it during Chicago traffic. It will be my daily driver but she has to be able to drive it when needed. For instance on trips we always share driving duties.

    Other CUV/SUVs I'm looking at besides the Outie are the 'nox, Santa Fe, maybe the Edge. From Subaru I may check out the Outback. Some, like the Murano, are dismissed due to styling (wife hates it although I don't mind it). I see nothing form Honda that thrills me and Toyota isn't much better. I like the RAV4 styling and of course the V6 but dislike just about everything else about it.

    My current car is a '99 Galant V6 with 152K miles. It's been fantastic for reliability with just one repair + scheduled maintenance + consumables like tires. At almost 11 years old, everything works and the leather seats are still in very good shape.

    Fuel economy is a concern, but of late I only do 7ish thousand miles a year so it isn't the main factor.
  • comem47comem47 Posts: 390
    " I like the RAV4 styling and of course the V6 but dislike just about everything else about it. "

    The thing that really turned me off about the RAV-4 is that swinging door that opens the wrong way to the curb. (think about emptying out the contents in tight street bumper to bumper parking...the door is in your way) On the other hand I found the drop down lower tailgate of the Outlander to be very nice. (I've carried home 4X8 sheets of plywood on the diagonal with other 8 foot lumber from Home Depot quite nicely with the seats folded forward (the lower tailgate extends the surface the load rides on and the upper liftgate opens up out of the way). Now think about driving with the door flopping on the RAV with such a load. :cry:
  • >>>> Please point to my post were I “lie”.

    >>Sure. More than once: "voice activated 40GB music server"… "40 GB music server" …



    Nonsense. This is not a "lie", it's a use of common term. I did not invent term "40GB music server" - it used everywhere as “40GB HDD digital music server” or “30GB hard-drive-based music server” with several variations in many online sources: cars.com , thecarconnection.com, etc.

    As for 40GB capacity, maps normally don't take much space: a DVD based nav systems operate within 4.7GB DVD capacity and European maps for your Costco Garmin come on 4GB SD card. The rest of Outlander hard drive space is used for: OS/GUI, music server software to rip CDs, Gracenote music database, space for temp files while CDs being ripped, and finally for actual digital music files. It would be too naive to think that music server HD is all for just music files.
    .

    ...and here you didn't mention it can't copy MP3s…. I bet you wish Edmunds let you edit those right about now...

    Nonsense again. The capability to "copy mp3", it is irrelevant, since music server is not intended to "copy mp3" (and I have previously wrote about it), but instead music server is designed to playback digital file formats such as MP3, WMA, and ATRAC3+ which is Sony algorithmic version of MP3. Music server rips regular CDs into digital file and stores it for playback. Music server also provides MP3 playback via integrated: DVD drive, USB stick connector and audio streaming Bluetooth.
  • >> Will you tow? Edmunds complained about brake pedal fade. That might be a concern if you haul very heavy loads.

    Edmiunds Insideline about mushy and squishy Forester brakes:

    "Unfortunately the brake pedal action doesn't give you confidence, as our drivers describe it variously as soft, mushy and squishy."
  • >> That quick slalom doesn't apply to Outlanders in his price range because the GT deletes the roof rails and has who knows what other upgrades to help it achieve that slalom speed.

    2009 Outlander XLS is still faster vs. Forester XT in slalom by whole 3.6 seconds:
    XLS: 63.9, Rover LR2: 62, Forester XT: 60.3.
    The new 2010 XLS shares with GT the same new improved suspension and engine, but not AWD. It may not be as agile as GT but would certainly be sportier then 2009 XLS.

    >> I quoted street prices for a Forester XT Premium for $25,337. That's with discounts, but I doubt you'll find a GT for that price.

    GT is in a different league, but street prices will be under 30K with navigation.


    >> So the question is, how much Outlander can you get for $25 grand? Help the guy out.

    You will be able to find deals and get loaded XLS at around $25K as well. This guy got it for $23k:
    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0fda3a/917#MSG917
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    $4 grand is a big premium, the XLS probably a better value.

    nav-equipped one the free traffic

    I thought it was subscription based? My buddy's Infiniti G37 costs him $13 a month. I guess you mean after the first 3 months?

    I hear you about Toyota. Frustrating. The RAV4's rear door swings open the wrong way (comem47 beat me to it). The Highlander's 3rd row doesn't split fold.

    Check out an Outback 3.6R Ltd with Navi. It has the USB port, streaming bluetooth stereo, and a bigger screen (8"). The only problem is you may not find one right now with the GPS. One Edmunds member in Chicago searched and found just one in the entire Colorado area.

    Well, good luck shopping. Check 'em all out this Auto Show season, saves a bunch of time. That's what I do.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I feel like you were misleading us about the capacity and capabilities. No mention of how you were driving around with 4 year old maps, and you were OK with that? This is a system you can't stop bragging about that doesn't get the text-to-speech feature found on some $99 portables.

    You made it sound like the GT could walk on water. With S-AWC.

    Edmunds said the Forester had "powerful stops" so it still wins the braking test, objective and subjective (distance).

    Slalom isn't measured in seconds, it's average speed. And to get those numbers the Outlander traded off a very stiff ride. I suspect that's the main reason it doesn't sell better.

    Forester still wins 3 out of 4 performance categories.

    At $23k Mitsubishi was basically giving that car away (poster says the rebate was $3000 at the time). I'll be the first to say it - at that price, plus with his loyalty incentive, fushigi should buy the Outlander. Those prices are not sustainable for Mitsubishi, though.

    I say wait until the rebate climbs back up to that level (it is $1500 now in my region for 09s), cash in the loyalty incentive, and shop a leftover 2009 XLS.

    A 2010 GT won't have the rebate and costs $4 grand more, so the difference could reach $7 grand.
  • >> how you were driving around with 4 year old maps, and you were OK with that?

    Why would I care? I have never ran into a new road. Outlander uses Navteq maps – the same map vendor as most of manufacturers: acura, audi, benz, bmw, caddi, LR, jag, infi, mazd, niss, vw, volvo and more. And they all get updates at the same time. I don’t think it’s 4 years. The current version is 2008. I don’t know who is Subaru vendor, but I’d be surprised if they release updates every year. So map age is a non-issue.
    .

    >> This is a system you can't stop bragging about that doesn't get the text-to-speech feature found on some $99 portables.

    And you can't stop bragging about previous generation: the 07 Outlander first went into production with its new Nav in 2006. That time Forester had no Navigation AT ALL: it went into production with Navigation much later in 2008, but even 2010 Forester still does not have hard drive stored maps, no phonebook sync, no free real-time traffic, no Diamond Lane Guidance, no MSN, no USB, and no text-to-speech feature so why don’t you compare it to "$99 portable"? Also note that in 2006 your advanced "portables" were priced over $700 not $99.



    >> Forester still wins 3 out of 4 performance categories.

    Forester XT wins: acceleration, braking.
    skidpad is nearly a wash.
    Outlander wins: handling, transmission, AWD, tow capacity, payload capacity, cargo volume.


    >> I say wait until the rebate climbs back up to that level (it is $1500 now in my region for 09s), cash in the loyalty incentive, and shop a leftover 2009 XLS.

    I’d say it a good strategy.


    >> A 2010 GT won't have the rebate and costs $4 grand more, so the difference could reach $7 grand.

    Yes, it actually could reach 6-7K diff in December. It appears invoice price for 2010 XLS with leather and Nav is $28832. GT: $30941. Outlander frequently sells $2K below invoice, so in a few months the 2010 XLS street price could be around $26,800. GT: $28,900.
    If fushigi has some financial flexibility, he could get a car with interior quality similar to X3 while technology will be equal or exceeding. Basically with X3 you would be paying thousands more just for the brand name. Both 2010 XLS and GT have new upscale interior with French-accent double stitching on the leather seats and dash pad, chrome accents, and widely employed soft-touch materials. The red digital information display between the gauges, replaced by a high-definition, multicolor LCD:
    GT: http://s215240594.onlinehome.us/outlander_GT.jpg
    X3: http://img2.netcarshow.com/BMW-X3_2007_1280x960_wallpaper_26.jpg
  • >>>> nav-equipped one the free traffic

    >> I thought it was subscription based? My buddy's Infiniti G37 costs him $13 a month. I guess you mean after the first 3 months?

    The real-time traffic is always free on 2010 Outlander:

    http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1038615_new-mitsubishi-nav-system-i- - ncludes-free-traffic-service

    Also "there's another advantage of the Mitsubishi system: its carpool lane information. The so-called Diamond Lane Guidance is said to be an industry first and can help guide you to high-occupancy vehicle (HOV) lanes when it might help reduce drive times."

    The real-time traffic is actually extremely useful feature: it would save you lots of time, aggravation and gas (we talk so much about gas mileage here).

    If you drive a lot, then for the real-time traffic feature alone I would buy the 2010 model of Outlander, but anyway it has so many cool features and qualities: this car is a steal.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The current version is v2010.20, not v2008. They supply Garmin as well.

    http://www.navteq.com/partnertoolkit/media/view/map_update_garmin/index.htm

    So it's still 2+ years out of date if it really is 2008. We can check that when it comes out.

    I just sold my Nuvi 200w model precisely because it had outdated v2008 maps.

    It's not only missing major new roads like the ICC highway here in MD, but also the POI database - every business that is new or has closed in the past 2 years would be listed incorrectly or missing. Imagine running on fumes and then having it take you to a gas station that closed.

    Plus how can it avoid traffic on the ICC if the highway is not even included on its maps? It can't.

    The Forester already offers a map update, the year after it came out, FWIW. Not that I recommend any OEM Navi.

    I'll just say this - buyer beware. On your test drive, go to Maps/About, however you get there from the menu, and check the version of your maps before you buy.

    I’d say it a good strategy.

    What do you know, is World Peace next? :shades:

    It's Thanksgiving week so Iets be thankful for the choices we have, even if we don't agree on which is best for each of us. At least we have those choices to make.

    Happy Thanksgiving.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    fushigi: your mission, shall you choose to accept it...

    :shades:

    ... is to match or beat slobbatech's $23,000 price on his 08 XLS. Your loyalty rebate should offset price increases for 09.

    Timing is everything. Luck, too. You have to time it so that they're clearing out the 09s but still have what you want (color) in stock.

    slobbatech's was loaded, he wrote "nav, sun&sound, luxury/leather packages" and it was even "4wd".

    So there is your benchmark deal. Good luck.

    This message will self-destruct in 3, 2, 1, ...

    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    There's another advantage of the Mitsubishi system: its carpool lane information. The so-called Diamond Lane Guidance is said to be an industry first and can help guide you to high-occupancy vehicle (HOV) lanes when it might help reduce drive times.

    I don't quite get it - didn't the old Navi system have avoidances? If so, you should have been able to choose to avoid (or not avoid) HOV lanes.

    My Garmin does this.

    I guess I don't see how it's an undustry first, or what's unique about it. Am I missing something? :confuse:
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,235
    For me to take a pre-2010 model would take one heck of a deal. I want the improved MPG, improved interior, and improved everything else.

    I see some 2010 Outlanders are in stock at my local dealer but based on the posted price on their web site they are no XLS or GT models so far.

    Frankly I'd be satisfied with a loaded GT for $30K after loyalty rebate and before TTL. Cheaper, er, less expensive, is better but given a $35K MSRP that'd be a good enough deal with no other incentives. I've no problem with the dealer making a profit; I just see no need for it to be excessive. :shades:

    Anyway, over the coming weeks I'll try to test drive a GT & XLS and from Subaru, the Outback 3.6. Maybe a Ford Edge. I really wanted to like the 'nox but the non-flat floor w/second row is close to a deal breaker. CR-V, RAV, Rogue/Murano and anything from Chrysler are out for various reasons. I might be skipping something off the top of my head but that's the current short list.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    $23,000 minus a loyalty rebate *is* a heck of a deal.

    Do all models get the MPG boost? And do the XLS and GT get the same mileage?

    Regarding the suspension upgrades - did they improve the ride quality? I guess you haven't driven one yet, so we'll see.

    Honda somehow manages to build the best selling SUV with only one 4 banger engine and 1500 lbs towing. It's mind-boggling.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,235
    I don't know if the 4 cyl models got a boost as I'm not really looking at them. For 2010 both the AWD XLS & S-AWC GT V6 models are rated at 18/24. FWD XLS V6 is 19/25 so adding AWD only costs 1 MPG. AWD 4 cyl Outlanders are 21/25 while FWD bumps the MPG to 21/27.

    I'll have to go back & re-read the messages. Was the $23K for a nicely loaded V6 that included the Sun 'n' Sound?

    Re: Ride. I liked the ride of the '09. It was smooth and composed on the roads we tested it on, including some stretches that have been repaired multiple times, i.e. pothole repairs that had to be repaired again and again. Those are roads I'm on frequently (the dealer is located along my commute) so how it behaves there is important to me.

    Re: CR-V. I don't really get the appeal either. The looks are OK but not striking certainly not aggressive like the RAV or Outlander. The engine is adequate but just so. In fact, I think adequate is the best term for the whole CUV. It doesn't seem to excel at anything. Maybe it just perfectly fills the niche of something with the Honda badge that is more "user friendly" than the Pilot & cheaper than the Odyssey.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,235
    Re: $23K Outlander. It was a 2008 model purchased in May '09; no wonder it was discounted heavily. It did have Sun 'n' Sound.

    With the '10s hitting dealer lots bargains might be had on remaining '09s but given Mitsu sales volume a more likely scenario is dealers sitting on in-stock units until they sell before ordering any '10s.
This discussion has been closed.