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Mitsubishi Outlander vs. Subaru Forester

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  • >> Oh whoopee, the Outlander does well in one salolm test. Does it also have best in class braking? Acceleration? etc? I thought not...

    But you “thought” yes, that GLK has “competent handling”: but Oh whoopee, that’s not the case: it’s beaten in slalom by x3, x5, x6, lr2, mdx, rdx, q5, outlander, and even by Toyota! Shame. For $45K I’d expect a better performance.

    I’ve never “thought” or said that Outlander GT has the “best in class braking or acceleration”, but Outlander has good braking and acceleration for the money. In fact it’s good enough to beat Rover LR2, Acura MDX, and Mercedes ML350 in 0-60 acceleration test.


    >>>> Outlander has “fully-flat seating function (first and second row)”
    >> Why do I care if the driver's seat folds flat?

    You tell me, you started the "flatseat" topic. But you seem to “care” that the Outlander front passenger seat folds flat, and in addition Outlander 2nd row seat reclines and slides back. Ooh whoopee, the GLK does not do any of that...
  • >>The Audi ski ramp stunt did have a wire attached under the front.

    Wire? Wow.

    Epic music, Audi logo close up, Quattro logo close up, the man in black wool coat gets in the car, and a wire.

    The other real life video gives better idea what happens with no wire and spikes.
  • comem47comem47 Posts: 389
    Here is the making of the 25th anniv ski jump video FYI:

    It's not quite what they lead you to believe

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObdPVYAGCXo
  • comem47comem47 Posts: 389
    And lets admit it. Neither a Forester, not Outlander , nor Quattro is gonna do this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtWSXhWJt2I

    (and I don't really care because I will never attempt that)

    Are we done? :P
  • p0926p0926 Posts: 4,423
    Well I guess the Outlander is the greatest thing since the invention of sliced bread, At least that's what chelentano would like us to think ;)

    I think I'll pass on drinking the Kool-Aid.
  • p0926p0926 Posts: 4,423
    Seriously though, let me get this right, you're comparing the Outlander to the MB GLK350 and actually arguing that the Outlander is better?!?!?!?!?

    -Frank
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I realize that a Torsen acts like an open diff when there is zero traction on one side. My Miata has a Torsen rear diff with no traction control, so in the snow it stays parked at home.

    On dry pavement (such as on a track) it can sense torque (TorSen stands for Torque Sensing) and send more power to one side, equal to what's called the bias ratio. It doesn't wait to react to slip, so I'd consider that proactive.

    Audi's center Torsen has a bias ratio of 2 to 1, so it can actively send double the power to the axle with greater traction (as long as both axles have some grip). Works great on the track.

    Not so great on ice, plus the 3 Torsens were extremely expensive, so Audi kept just the center Torsen and now uses traction control. Better or worse? That's open for debate. Better on ice, yes.

    What you describe sounds like what Honda used in the Prelude SH back in 1997, they called it ATTS, but it basically did the same thing (with FWD).

    What year did Mitsu start using it?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    What that ski jump ramp ascent shows is the directional control when climbing offered, including side-to-side management. It goes up perfectly straight, no drama.

    It was impressive 25 years ago and remains impressive today.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Went to check out a Honda Crosstour in Rockville yesterday. 1500 lbs towing, $35 grand for AWD with leather and no Navi, ouch. Bad blind spots, styling only a mother could love, and a mere 31" between the cargo wheel wells.

    That's nearly a full size car, and the compact Forester offers 42.2" between the wheel wells (Outlander falls between the two).

    Decided not to bother test driving it.

    I bet it sells like hotcakes, though. They were out of brochures. Honda could sell a rock if they put an "H" on it.

    Next, I went next door to Rockville Mitsubishi - heads up fushigi, they have a GT in stock, though it's not available for test drive. They did let me get in and check it out, though. If you're in the Mid Atlantic region, I bet it's still there, if you wanted to see it.

    I prefer the styling with the roof rails, it looks sort of "naked" without them (I feel the same way about the base Forester 2.5X, which also lacks those). It just looks less SUV, more station wagon.

    They added chrome trim around the windows, also. I don't like chrome, but that's personal taste, my wife likes it.

    The mirrors are unique and have integrated turn signals. The wipers are also upgraded to the same kind my 09 Forester has, those one-piece blade-style. Nice. Wheels were still covered in plastic so I didn't get a look at those.

    DOH - just realized I forgot to pop the gas cap and check if it said anything about fuel requirements. My bad. It looked pre-production anyway.

    Seats were wrapped in plastic but I think they're the same as the XLS'.

    The leather dash is a nice upgrade, and it runs across the dash an into the tops of the door panels. The arm rests are still vinyl, which is odd because the dash gets real leather that contrasts with it - and what I don't get is why? They're on the same door panel, why not do them both in leather? Maybe it will still make production.

    They didn't seem to do anything else, which is disappointing. The headliner still feels like cardboard with dryer lint glued on. The other plastics were not upgraded. IIRC you lose the dash-top storage bin.

    Like the Forester, the seats, steering wheel, and shift knob are all wrapped in real leather, so the stuff you touch does feel nice.

    The moonroof is small - the visible part of the glass is only 11.5" long. The good news is it was listed as standard, the leather and Navi were the options (price was $33k).

    Keep in mind this was pre-production, but still no struts to raise the hood, no door sill protectors. Plastic sun visor is sadly class-standard. Under the hood, the fluid caps are all different colors (Subaru uses yellow for everything so it's easier to find). The cargo area carpet looks unfinished and was secured in place by velcro? Again, could just be pre-production.

    Check it out, fushigi, if you're in the Mid-Atlantic area.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    FWIW, that's not the video I was referring to. My link was to the video from 1986.
  • comem47comem47 Posts: 389
    "FWIW, that's not the video I was referring to. My link was to the video from 1986"

    I know that . The same procedure was used on the 2005 remake and that's the one available to demonstrate that it wasn't just a straight up climb on a stock car. Look at the original around 40 sec and 45 sec and you will see the cable. (snow flying up in the middle on the head on shot). There also appears to be many 2"X4" at intervals across the jump (later just under the snow?...stop the 2005 "making of" video around 25 sec.) Notice also on the practice of the 2005 stunt that once it stopped about 1/2 way up it wasn't gonna go any further, regardless of the spikes.. Impressive as Audi's may be you can't overcome the fact that once momentum was lost they were hosed. It's just physics. It's a nice publicity stunt, but not real world. (just what were the spikes digging into through the thin snow cover?)

    The stunt I'd like to see based on physics is a Formula one car could stick to the road upside down at speed due to the ground effects (3000 lb downforce on a 1500 lbs car at 150 mph). Not likely that will ever be demonstrated though!! :D :
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Of course it was done Hollywood-style (the original was a commercial after all), but most of those things were added as safety precautions. The Quattro still climbed straight.

    The 2010 Mitsu brochure (full line, they didn't have Outlander brochures yet) says S-AWC "add left to right torque transfer", which is what any limited-slip (and Honda's ATTS) does.

    The video with that Outlander making forward progress with traction to only 2 wheels is nice, but let's see them put it on that roller ramp to see if it can climb with just 1 wheel. We've seen the Tribeca and Legacy do that. I've also seen 2 BMWs (X5 and 330xi) and a Benz do it.

    I just see a big opportunity for Mitsubishi to market S-AWC if they can demonstrate this at car shows, rally events, etc.
  • comem47comem47 Posts: 389
    "The video with that Outlander making forward progress with traction to only 2 wheels is nice, but let's see them put it on that roller ramp to see if it can climb with just 1 wheel. We've seen the Tribeca and Legacy do that. I've also seen 2 BMWs (X5 and 330xi) and a Benz do it.

    I just see a big opportunity for Mitsubishi to market S-AWC if they can demonstrate this at car shows, rally events, etc. "

    Whatever floats your boat. In 2007 I was looking for best rounded approach to 4WD/AWD with a decent interior size and good mpg with good towing capability. The existing Forester then was too small and cost more. If S-AWC was an option that cost a few thousand more I wouldn't have paid for it. I've yet to get stuck towing my snowmobile trailer up hills (not ski ramps mind you!) ;) and I don't go off-road and play in the mud. Suits me just fine for paying under $25K. Some people have a need to say they have the "best" but will truly never need it (but surely pay for it to impress their neighbors). As I pointed out earlier, if you truly go off road and wanna impress the big boys you're up against the likes of a Hummer for bragging rights. My neighbors may be leasing flashier wheels, but I own my house (all in what your priorities are).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    You don't have to justify your purchase to me, or to anyone for that matter. Buy what you love, who cares what other people think?

    Rockville Mitsubishi was empty, though. You could hear crickets chirping. And they had 6 or 7 new 2010s. Right next door people are waiting in line to drive the ugliest car on the planet (priced some $10-12 grand or so more than you paid).

    Add some spice to the marketing. Host events to get the word out about S-AWC. Demos sell the sizzle, as they say, and get plenty of attention. It is quite literally put up on a pedestal.

    Under $25k is a good price, but Mitsu isn't going to make profits giving them away, especially the GT.

    What better way to convince people it's worth the extra $2 grand over the XLS than to show it in action?

    BMW did it with the 3 series sedan at the Ultimate Driving Event, so it's not just showing off road capability, it's showing AWD (front-rear) and traction management (side-to-side on both axles) capabilities.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,218
    Thanks for the heads up. Actually, the rep at the local dealer (Chicago suburbs) called just a couple of hours ago. They've had some 4 cyl Outlanders in but just today got in a couple of GTs. One with Leather/Navi, one without. Once I set up an agreeable time with my wife I'll make an appointment for a test drive.

    From what I've read here and from the Mitsu Facebook postings the GT has been trickling into dealers slowly. I'd have to think you sat in a production model but possibly one that hasn't had the dealer prep completed.

    I agree about the roof rails from what I've seen in photos. SUVs in general just look better with them even if you don't plan on using them.

    Wheel covers are only on the base ES trim; all others have alloys.

    I don't mind chrome as long as its done tastefully; i.e. minimal as an accent and note shouting/in-your-face. Current Acura chrome treatment (grills) is not tasteful.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    possibly one that hasn't had the dealer prep completed

    At the very least, because the keyless entry wasn't even programmed. We had to use the key to get in.

    I meant alloys, they just had white plastic film covering them, I guess for protection. Sorry that wasn't more clear.

    We agree about the Acura grille, too. This thread is getting downright friendly! :D

    Good luck shopping.

  • >> Not so great on ice, plus the 3 Torsens were extremely expensive, so Audi kept just the center Torsen and now uses traction control.

    Not just traction control. Audi now buys pricey torque vectoring systems from ZF.

    >> What you describe sounds like what Honda used in the Prelude SH back in 1997, they called it ATTS, but it basically did the same thing (with FWD). What year did Mitsu start using it?

    1996

    Mitsu Evo 4, Galant, and Legnum VR-4 with torgue vectoring AWD system and with sophisticated electronics sensing was manufactured since 1996:
    “In 1996, Mitsubishi equipped the Lancer Evolution IV with the world's first Active Yaw Control (AYC) system. The AYC transfers drive torque between the left and right drive wheels as required. This was achieved by utilising a torque transfer rear differential which is controlled by various sensors and an electronic control unit (ECU) to enable a difference in torque to go to each of the rear wheels. The result is a dramatic improvement in cornering performance and improved safety. The eighth generation Galant/Legnum VR-4 model was released for the Japanese market in 1996 that also featured the AYC system, in addition integrated to now fully evolved active stability control (ASC) system... Active yaw control ... can actively split torque based on input from various accelerometers in the vehicle measuring longitudinal and lateral g forces, steering, brakes and throttle position” – Wikipedia

    1997
    That Prelude in 1997 was just a FWD vehicle with active front diff.

    2003
    EVO 8 released with new generation Super Active Yaw Control.

    2005
    05 Acura RL with SH-AWD was offered for sale: 2 rear wheel torque vectoring.
    2007 EVO X. 4-wheel torque vectoring . S-AWC uses torque vectoring technology to send different amount of torque to any wheel at any given time.

    2007
    EVO X. 4-wheel torque vectoring . S-AWC uses torque vectoring technology to send different amount of torque to any wheel at any given time.

    Ricardo 2 rear wheel torque vectoring system was installed on Audi for technology demonstration.

    2008
    ZF / GKN Driveline torque vectoring systems were installed on several MB, Audi and BMW X6.
  • >> Of course it was done Hollywood-style (the original was a commercial after all), but most of those things were added as safety precautions. The Quattro still climbed straight. i>

    You still think that commercial was real thing? That is impossible without special equipment like spikes and wires. "The spikes are raised" - German subtitles say in the video.

    This video on the other hand is a real thing, where Audio "climbed straight":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTs0MCQHrzE
  • >> If S-AWC was an option that cost a few thousand more I wouldn't have paid for it. I've yet to get stuck towing my snowmobile trailer up hills and I don't go off-road and play in the mud... As I pointed out earlier, if you truly go off road and wanna impress the big boys you're up against the likes of a Hummer for bragging rights.

    Actually, I would get S-AWC not so much for off-roading, but for its exceptional handling capabilities and safety of high speed highway driving. It's no coincidence that both cars on the top of Edmunds slalom test are equipped with latest torque vectoring AWD systems: BMW X6 M, and Outlander GT.
  • >> Seriously though, let me get this right, you're comparing the Outlander to the MB GLK350 and actually arguing that the Outlander is better?!?!?!?!?

    "Seriously though, I let you get this right" why your $45K Mercedes has plastic dash instrument panel, while that $29K Outlander comes with double-stitched leather instrument panel "?!?!?!?!?" Isn't the Mercedes suppose to be a luxury car?
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