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Mitsubishi Outlander vs. Subaru Forester

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Comments

  • p0926p0926 Posts: 4,423
    Who supplies the turbo again?

    Ouch!

    And of course you're right, there's no such thing as a stripped down Subaru. Even base models come well equipped. Unless of course your list of must haves includes a leather clad dash and a stereo powerful enough to make a rap star jealous... in which case, you'll be forced to get an Outlander :shades:

    I like how he tries to arbitrarily lower the Forester's reliability ranking by averaging the turbo and non-turbo scores. Never mind that turbos only account for 10% of Forester sales. And speaking of the F-XT's reliability, my 2004 is now 6 years old with 83k miles and guess how much I've spent on repairs (powertrain or otherwise)? Yep, ZERO dollars :D

    Have you ever paused to consider which manufacturers offer 10-year warranties and why? It seems to me it's only the ones who have a history of shoddy workmanship that they're trying to overcome ;)

    -Frank
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Never mind that turbos only account for 10% of Forester sales

    I'm way ahead of you.

    Already shot 2 e-mails to SoA asking about the production volume, turbo vs. non-turbo.

    We both know the sales-weighted average will be well ahead of 10th place.

    Not to mention the Benz ML is not exactly known for legendary reliability, so all models in this thread exceed his own standards by a wide margin.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    downgraded "symmetrical awd" which after redesign lost LS differential

    Some models had a viscous LSD to manage traction on the rear axle (better than on the front, but still not on both), but it was replaced with traction/stability control that managed traction on both axles on all models. That was an upgrade, not a downgrade.

    Let's use Mitsubishi as a source for this one, from their 2006 press release when they intro'd the 2007 Outlander you ended up buying:

    The traction control portion of ASTC provides a "virtual" limited-slip differential effect by helping to prevent wheel spin during start up and acceleration in slippery conditions. Even if the driver has not selected 4WD Auto or 4WD Lock modes on a 4WD Outlander model, front wheel spin can be controlled under a variety of conditions. Since a mechanical limited-slip differential is not required, weight is reduced.

    You bought in to that theory because that is where you spent your money.

    If you thought a mechanical LSD was better, why didn't you buy a 2007 Forester? They had them back then.

    You chose traction control instead. As did Subaru.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Mitsubishi of Canada is going with a "Premium Unleaded" fuel recommendation:

    http://www.mitsubishi-motors.ca/Outlander/Specifications.aspx

    Strange that both the EPA and Mitsu Canada say Premium. Wonder if MMNA will do that also? It's the same 230hp engine. It is not specified on their web site.

    What does it say behind the fuel door of the 2010s?
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,217
    What does it say behind the fuel door of the 2010s?

    You can use regular or premium. As with a lot of modern V6s, the manual states you get more power from premium but it is not required.

    I'm burning regular. Getting about 22.5MPG according to the OBC. That's in suburban driving as it has yet to see an interstate. I have about 330 miles on it to date. I'm officially past the 300 mile break-in period for the engine.
  • p0926p0926 Posts: 4,423
    I'm officially past the 300 mile break-in period for the engine. :confuse:

    Doesn't Mitsubishi specify a 1,000 mile break-in period? I thought that was the standard for all manufacturers?

    -Frank
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,217
    The manual says 300. As I only buy a new car every few years, I always take the time to RTFM. And on the Outlander, the main manual is over an inch thick. Then there's a separate 11 chapter manual for the multi-communication system a.k.a. sound + bluetooth + navi etc. And a thin maintenance manual to note the 7500 mile oil changes etc.
  • p0926p0926 Posts: 4,423
    Interesting. I wonder why Mitzu is different? I know what you mean about the thickness of today's owner's manuals. All the manuals for a new MB are about two inches thick!

    -Frank
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,915
    I heard that GM reduced the size of their manuals to around 70 pages. They'll all be online and nowhere else in a few years I bet. Probably be able to pull them up on the nav or heads up display.

    And yeah, seems like 300 to 500 miles is a more typical break-in period these days. And that's probably just to bed in the brakes.
  • >> Mitsu needs to increase sales 300% to get back to 2002 levels, maybe they should change their marketing strategy

    North american market is smallest for Mitsu, but it's to big to pass on it. They will not exit this market as long as company is doing well worldwide. Mitsu still sells twice more cars vs. Subaru worldwide. Subaru sold this fiscal year 555k vs. 2008: 616k . Subaru forecasts further decline next year. This is a huge 61k decline in addition to the staggering ¾ billion dollar loss. As a result Subaru not only delays upgrades but even downgrades to a more basic AWD system and Chinese turbochargers.

    I agree though that Mitsu marketing sucks and everyone at the MMNA marketing division should be fired.
    .

    >> Outlander: the TENTH most reliable compact SUV!

    So are you saying Forester’s 19th place is better? "That will triple sales!" No wonder bragging all month about Forester CR reliability rating you were so shy to mention it.
    .

    >>>stripped down Subarus at least more reliable!

    >>Another myth. The 2.5X Limited is not stripped down at all, it has all the same equipment as the XT Limited. This shows how little you know about the Forester.

    Except not all Foresters are equipped with the same options as “Limited”, “shows how little you know about the Forester.” But even “Limited” is poorly equipped.
    .

    >> The only difference is the turbo powertrain, so I guess we have to ask who supplies that turbo that lowers the reliability score? Who supplies the turbo again?

    Mitsubishi-supplied turbochargers are fine. Lancer turbo has very good reliability rating, way better then average.

    “This shows how little you know about the Forester.” The reported problem with turbo Forester XT is rod big end bearings, which is a major mechanical part of actual engine and not part of Mitsubishi turbocharger.

    Turbochargers put con rod under tremendous stress from the reciprocating load represented by the piston, while load is increased to the 3rd power with increased speed. Failure of a connecting rod, usually called "throwing a rod" is one of the most common causes of catastrophic and expensive engine failure in cars. When building a high performance engine, great attention should be paid to the con rods, since the rod could to fail under stress.

    Subaru did not provide an engine appropriate to function with high performance turbocharger. They simply attached turbocharger to a stock "boxer" engine. Irresponsible and cheap approach. American consumer will buy anyway the "symmetrical AWD" and "boxer" engine.
  • >> If you thought a mechanical LSD was better, why didn't you buy a 2007 Forester?

    Why would I? The 2007 Forester is an ugly dated station wagon, no thank you . The 2007 Outlander does have LSD. The 2007 Outlander is more advanced, than 2011 Forester which still will be equipped with 1988 4EAT transmission.
    .

    >>>> downgraded "symmetrical awd" which after redesign lost LS differential
    >> it was replaced with traction/stability control that managed traction on both axles on all models. That was an upgrade, not a downgrade. Let's use Mitsubishi as a source for this one, from their 2006 press release: The traction control portion of ASTC provides a "virtual" limited-slip differential effect by helping to prevent wheel spin during start up and acceleration in slippery conditions.


    That’s right: the stability/traction control provides just a "virtual" limited-slip differential effect. In one article it’s called the poor man's LSD. If both sides lose traction at the same time and spin at the same speed then it has no idea anything is wrong. A more advanced system measures the difference between the speeds of all 4 wheels during acceleration and assumes that anything spinning faster than the slowest rotating wheel is slipping . A cheap system will apply the brakes. An expensive system will reduce the throttle until the problem goes away.
    Another problem with stability control is that it's pretty harsh. The pulsing of the ABS isn't progressive. If the ABS is on, it applies full braking power followed by zero braking power.. full, zero, full, zero.. The torque from the engine that's being transferred repeatedly all the way across the drivetrain from wheel to wheel a dozen times a second, puts stress on everything. Brakes, rotors, axles, U joints, output shafts, and the differential itself.
    Also stability control is really designed for emergency low traction situations and not drag racing or rallying or other long duration and many ESC today operate only at lower speeds.

    The 2007 Outlander is equipped with LSD. It has ASTC in addition to LSD, not as substitution. But what was in 2006 is now irrelevant. We are almost in 2010 and while Forester AWD is downgraded, Outlander AWD is upgraded to the state of the art active differential with torque vectoring and the active center differential.

    I did not research exotic/racing cars, otherwise it appears there is only 3 cars equipped with combination of active torque vectoring differential + active center differential: Outlander GT, EVO and top of the line Range Rover.
  • >> I'm not sure they'll make it to 2012.

    At least you was sure about Borg Warner.
    .

    >> Subaru's powertrain warranty is not 3 years

    Even if its 5, after 5 years the Forester cost of ownership will be higher vs. Outlander which has 10 year warranty.
    .

    >> the Subaru Bucks don't have to be used to buy a car

    But you did. You saved 1500 Subaru Bucks and you've had no choice but purchase a Subaru. Now you have to mentally justify your purchase and tune your mind for the next Subaru purchase. They got you, you are enslaved, and you can't get out of that circle.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Once PSA takes over, how long will they keep allowing MMNA to lose money before they close shop?

    Since you won't let it go - CR didn't list the turbo Forester when I mentioned it, that information was not available at the time.

    I'm still pleased because my Forester is more reliable than any Mitsubishi car or truck, at any price, no exceptions.

    not all Foresters are equipped with the same options as “Limited”

    Same for the turbo, though.

    By the way, the con rod bearings showed wear and they replaced them, they didn't wait for catastrophic failure. Reliability will improve with time since the issue was resolved.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    You wrote:

    The 2007 Outlander does have LSD

    Mitsubishi wrote:

    "virtual" limited-slip differential effect

    It has the same EFFECT, but virtual = not real.

    How is that different than Subaru's?

    4EAT transmission

    At least you stopped lying about it being a 3 speed (more than once).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    At least you was sure about Borg Warner

    Same way you were sure the Outlander had a 6" taller cargo area? It was more like 1-2" when we measured.

    Any why didn't you mention the pairing problem with iPhones, since that's what you have?

    And why did you say your arm rest was leather, when it was very obviously vinyl?

    You omit the fact that your GPS maps were 4 years old. Navteq just came out with the q3 update to v2010 so even the brand new 2010 GT has 2 3/4 year old maps.

    Same with the 11.5" long moonroof, the Forester's panoramic moonroof is more than twice as big (I measured, so if you want the areas I'm happy to provide those).

    3 speed automatic, 3 year powertrain warranty, 30 GB music server,... are you ever honest?

    Sorry about the Borg Warner thing, happy? Fact is you were bragging about Hyundai and Porsche using it so I made a bad assumption based on your track record. MY BAD. I should have known better. Sorry.

    At least I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong.

    Forester cost of ownership will be higher

    Source please? That's speculation.

    I have $800 in Subaru Bucks, so in the unlikely event that something does go wrong those can pay for repairs with those. Or service, or tires, $800 worth for free.

    enslaved

    For what it's worth, that word may be seem as offensive to a lot of people.

    I kept my last Forester for NINE years. You kept your Outlander for 2.5 years, and abandoned the brand entirely. Actions speak louder than words!
  • >> Once PSA takes over, how long will they keep allowing MMNA to lose money before they close shop?

    PSA doesn’t “take over”, they just buy a stake. And PSA more than Mitsu interested in getting into NA market, just as FIAT interested. Mitsu’s N. American market sales are tiny vs. the Mitsu the rest of the world sales so they can afford giving cars away for free in N.A. just to maintain presence. Subaru sells only half of million cars worldwide (twice less then Mitsu) so Subaru cannot afford any more losses, and they can only hope that “Symmetric AWD” party will continue. I wish them the best, but how long could they fool consumer selling old technology?


    >> Since you won't let it go - CR didn't list the turbo Forester when I mentioned it, that information was not available at the time.

    But it is available now, I would hope you could share it with us at list now: you are the CR subscriber. I just stopped by the book store and took a pict on my iPhone.


    >> I'm still pleased because my Forester is more reliable than any Mitsubishi car or truck, at any price, no exceptions.

    Based on what data? We only have an average rating for Outlanders of all trims/engines. After all Mitsu is overall more reliable brand vs. Subaru: link

    As you can see that Mitsubishi brand is more reliable then Lexus, Hyundai, Subaru, Mazda, and Nissan. Only Honda and Toyota owned brands are ahead:

    Consumer Reports 2009 most and least reliable car ranking.

    image

    >> By the way, the con rod bearings showed wear and they replaced them, they didn't wait for catastrophic failure. Reliability will improve with time since the issue was resolved.

    Yea, we hope it “will improve with time”. "By the way", you should have been honest about it in the first place instead of blaming Mitsu turbochargers.
  • >>"virtual" limited-slip differential effect
    It has the same EFFECT, but virtual = not real.
    How is that different than Subaru's?

    They did not say "the same". Just an effect. Read my post again. OK, I can copy/paste it for you convenience:

    the stability/traction control provides just a "virtual" limited-slip differential effect. In one article it’s called the poor man's LSD.

    If both sides lose traction at the same time and spin at the same speed then it has no idea anything is wrong. A more advanced system measures the difference between the speeds of all 4 wheels during acceleration and assumes that anything spinning faster than the slowest rotating wheel is slipping . A cheap system will apply the brakes. An expensive system will reduce the throttle until the problem goes away.

    Another problem with stability control is that it's pretty harsh. The pulsing of the ABS isn't progressive. If the ABS is on, it applies full braking power followed by zero braking power.. full, zero, full, zero.. The torque from the engine that's being transferred repeatedly all the way across the drivetrain from wheel to wheel a dozen times a second, puts stress on everything. Brakes, rotors, axles, U joints, output shafts, and the differential itself.

    Also stability control is really designed for emergency low traction situations and not drag racing or rallying or other long duration and many ESC today operate only at lower speeds.
  • Yea, I made a couple of mistakes (not all that you mentioned), and I've admitted them right away, but I've never bragged about them for many pages in a thread, the way you bragged about Borg Warner.

    Well, now I accept your apology and I will avoid bringing this issue up again.
  • >> Not to mention the Benz ML is not exactly known for legendary reliability, so all models in this thread exceed his own standards by a wide margin.

    Not all. Check your CR magazine. My M-Class Benz actually rated above average: better then Forester XT, which is below average. The Benz GLK has best CR reliability rating in its class: better then any Forester in its class.
  • Infinity is of course a Nissan owned brand...
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