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Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 49,910
    I think you're right about the "pressure". VW has such a huge investment in diesel tech that failure was not an option.

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  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 47,632

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 49,910
    Is there a source for monthly diesel sales in general, of all makes?

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 30,167

    Is there a source for monthly diesel sales in general, of all makes?

    I would like to see that myself. MB & BMW don't mention it on their US sales report. Audi and VW post for each model. BMW did mention in one article they sell 38% diesel WW.
  • berriberri Posts: 5,410
    Looks like VW US sales fell around 5%. Actually, that's probably pretty good given all the publicity. Could have been much worse.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 47,632
    Yeah, and if they had a bit more product to sell, I bet the sales would normalize fast. Profits, not so much.

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 30,167
    If 23% of their US sales WERE diesels, I would say they really are doing well with only 5% loss of market share. Most were coming from Mexico and Germany, so they can be sold in those countries. I don't think they stopped sales in Germany and the rest of Europe.

    The NOx will have to waft across the Southern border to get you. I would bet there is NO possible way they can tell the difference in our air quality in CA. If they could why weren't they looking for a cause over the last 6 years?
  • carboy21carboy21 Posts: 656
    I would still buy a 2016 Passat TDI if they are priced same as the Gasser and have not been neutered to reduce emissions.

    EPA standards are just a big joke.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 47,632

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  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 47,632
    edited December 2015
    "The Volkswagen Group could be prepared to sell some off its luxury car brands to pay back a one-year loan of around €20bn, Reuters reports.

    Volkswagen has told the banks supplying the credit line that it will sell its assets if no other way of repaying the loan is possible, according to two sources."

    VW 'could sell luxury brands' to fund Diesel-gate loan (theweek.co.uk)

    "But as Volkswagen drifts into a third month of a seemingly unbound scandal, that tone is changing and dealer frustrations are bubbling to the surface. The absence of a ready-to-go fix, plus continuing inventory shortages and the prospect of more new-car sales pain, is stirring angst and even anger in VW's dealer network.

    "This thing isn't getting better with time," said Alan Brown, co-owner of two Hendrick Volkswagen dealerships in suburban Dallas and chairman of VW's dealer council. "We don't have a fix. We don't have a timeline." The unknown, he added, is "what makes the anxiety of this even worse."

    VW new-car sales nosedive: What's next?
    (autoweek.com)

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  • carboy21carboy21 Posts: 656
    VW dealer network should dump VW and start selling Chinese cars. :smile:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 49,910
    Well maybe this will encourage GM to push harder for a new and improved Cruze diesel. I see they are planning a 5-door hatch, and maybe that could also be a diesel.

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 30,167
    carboy21 said:

    VW dealer network should dump VW and start selling Chinese cars. :smile:

    That would be GM that is getting ready to sell Buicks made in China.

    General Motors to Sell China-made Vehicle in US First

    NEW YORK - General Motors (IW 500/5) says it will sell in the United States next year a vehicle made in China, becoming the first major U.S. automaker to do so.

    The move was quickly denounced by the powerful UAW auto union, which branded it "a slap in the face" and called for an immediate rethink.

    GM has sold 127,085 Buick Envision SUVs, made in the eastern province of Shandong, since January in China.

    The automaker plans to import 30,000 to 40,000 of the vehicles each year, amid high demand for 4X4, crossover and pickup trucks in North America, as oil prices dip.

    The controversial announcement comes as labor costs are set to rise for GM in the United States following a wage deal currently being finalized.


    http://www.industryweek.com/companies-executives/general-motors-sell-china-made-vehicle-us-first
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 30,167

    Well maybe this will encourage GM to push harder for a new and improved Cruze diesel. I see they are planning a 5-door hatch, and maybe that could also be a diesel.

    They need to do something, their Volt is all but dead. Down 23% for the year. I doubt dieselgate will push GM past VW this year. If not for the Silverado and Colorado GM would look worse than VW this year. VW needs to bring their line of Vans and PU trucks to give the dealers something to sell. VW needs to forget pushing the low profit Passat and let the TN people build the Amarok and T6 van.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 30,167
    Why they have not brought the new 2017 Tiguan TDI 2.0 L to the USA is another mystery. Maybe they are setting up to build it in TN. Let's hope so.



    This is what sells, cars like the Passat and Jetta are cheap appliances. The retiring boomers want small vans like the Sharan and CUVs like the Tiguan.



  • berriberri Posts: 5,410
    Personally, I think that unless something really dramatic happens in North America, the sales race gets decided in China. The Chinese do pay some attention to what is happening in the US and Europe, so Dieselgate might have some impact on VW/Audi for a bit in China too. Give it a year or so and some other event will probably override their current emissions issue and some other brand may be in the bulls-eye. It was Toyota not all that long ago, then GM, now VW/Audi. Who'll be next?
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 47,632
    edited December 2015
    Don't forget the Kia/Hyundai mpg mess.

    And yeah, someone else will get in the crosshairs soon enough.

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 49,910
    I think Chinese-made cars will be a tough sell here in the USA---presuming of course, American buyers even know where they came from. Sooner or later the Chinese government will gun down another few thousand protesters and GM will get blamed for it. Let the Chinese market their own cars here, fine, using their own nameplate and dealer network.

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  • carboy21carboy21 Posts: 656

    I think Chinese-made cars will be a tough sell here in the USA---presuming of course, American buyers even know where they came from. Sooner or later the Chinese government will gun down another few thousand protesters and GM will get blamed for it. Let the Chinese market their own cars here, fine, using their own nameplate and dealer network.

    With everything being made in China , it is only logical that soon cars will also be made in China. They will be smart enough to first badge engineer the cars and sell it under USA brand names as Chinese names will not be popular in USA.
    GM/Ford/Chrysler will built their SUVs in China and import it here while the cheaper appliance like sedans will be made in Mexico.
    UAW stranglehold will be slowly broken to make the USA brands more competitive with the Japanese and the Koreans.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 49,910
    USA brands wouldn't become competitive just by getting rid of unions. You'd have to get rid of all US workers, because no American is going to take a job building cars for $8 and hour. Or if they do, you aren't going to get very good workers.

    GM couldn't have avoided bankruptcy even if the UAW worked for free. They were totally mismanaged.

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  • carboy21carboy21 Posts: 656

    USA brands wouldn't become competitive just by getting rid of unions. You'd have to get rid of all US workers, because no American is going to take a job building cars for $8 and hour. Or if they do, you aren't going to get very good workers.

    GM couldn't have avoided bankruptcy even if the UAW worked for free. They were totally mismanaged.

    Forty percent of the US carmaker's cost of building vehicles in USA goes towards union pensions and healthcare obligations. Google it.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 36,458
    Organization doesn't matter when the overpaid cereal box MBAs are incompetent. Hello big 2.5. I wonder how their cradle to grave benefits compare on a per capita basis to line workers. Probably like public sector vs private sector.

    Chinese built cars will meet tremendous market resistance - these aren't phones or cheap toys. If the wondrous most favored "partner" becomes belligerent on the domestic or international front, that will hurt too. Even the brave and vital demographic who likes cheap at any cost - so long as the negative externalities are sent offshore - will be hesitant.
    carboy21 said:



    With everything being made in China , it is only logical that soon cars will also be made in China. They will be smart enough to first badge engineer the cars and sell it under USA brand names as Chinese names will not be popular in USA.
    GM/Ford/Chrysler will built their SUVs in China and import it here while the cheaper appliance like sedans will be made in Mexico.
    UAW stranglehold will be slowly broken to make the USA brands more competitive with the Japanese and the Koreans.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 49,910
    So what? If they built great cars that made everyone money, who cares if they are "overpaid". Aren't execs "overpaid"? Good grief, if you have a well-paid, healthy, well-trained workforce, that should be the last place to "cut costs". Japanese autoworkers don't work for serf wages, nor do the Germans.

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 30,167

    I think Chinese-made cars will be a tough sell here in the USA---presuming of course, American buyers even know where they came from. Sooner or later the Chinese government will gun down another few thousand protesters and GM will get blamed for it. Let the Chinese market their own cars here, fine, using their own nameplate and dealer network.

    I don't believe more that 10% of American buyers give a rip where their new ride was built. The small CUV segment is getting bigger as Boomers reach retirement age. That is what GM plans to build in large numbers in China for the US market. It could also have to do with taxes. Much easier to hide money off shore.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 36,458
    I don't know if you are replying to me, but I was saying the execs are "overpaid" - because they are. I don't believe American line workers in general are overpaid, especially not compared to productivity measures and pay in other developed/first world or OECD nations.

    Regarding 10% of Americans from my friend gagrice, I don't buy it. When a Chinese-built product will come at little to no cost savings, as I expect from this Buick, consumers can afford to be choosy, and material from that place has a worse rep than Japanese stuff did in the 50s - not to mention the rep of the actions of the nation itself. Unfortunately, the boomers mentioned seem to be the "cheap at any cost" demographic, no matter that they'd be supporting a system they once marched against. I guess money talks...

    So what? If they built great cars that made everyone money, who cares if they are "overpaid". Aren't execs "overpaid"? Good grief, if you have a well-paid, healthy, well-trained workforce, that should be the last place to "cut costs". Japanese autoworkers don't work for serf wages, nor do the Germans.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 49,910
    I don't think American buyers have a very good opinion of the Chinese government. It's one thing to support them with a $10 shirt, but quite another with a $30,000 car. I mean, Russian motorcycles pretty much flopped over here (true, they were awful), and one does see an occasional Chinese motor bicycle, but an entire car with a Chinese nameplate? I'm just not seein' it.

    GM's has been dealt a very good hand right now. So let's see how they play it---skillfully, or oops I think I just shot myself.

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  • texasestexases Posts: 6,600

    I don't think American buyers have a very good opinion of the Chinese government. It's one thing to support them with a $10 shirt, but quite another with a $30,000 car. I mean, Russian motorcycles pretty much flopped over here (true, they were awful), and one does see an occasional Chinese motor bicycle, but an entire car with a Chinese nameplate? I'm just not seein' it.

    GM's has been dealt a very good hand right now. So let's see how they play it---skillfully, or oops I think I just shot myself.

    The photo of the recent 33 car crash in China does nothing to raise my confidence:


  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 47,632
    Oh, "they" said the same thing about VWs in the 60s (my Dad), Datsuns and Toyotas not long after and ditto Kia and Hyundai.

    Of course, "they" were right about Simcas, Fiats, Peugeots and Renaults.

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 30,167
    I would not imagine GM bringing their Chinese nameplate models to the USA. Buick is GM's best seller in China. So why not ship them here. I doubt they are any different than a Buick built here or Canada. This isn't the 1960s when Japan was using crappy materials in their cars. I know my 1964 Land Cruiser had an exact copy of a Chevy 6 cylinder built with substandard parts. Three Valve jobs and three timing gears in 50k miles. I built a VW dunebuggy that would go more places than the LC, and bought a VW Bug for transportation.

    Americans buy millions of $800 iPhones, iPads and iPods without blinking an eye. Apple is the most valuable company in the World on the backs of Chinese labor and the Bucks of Americans. Apple could buy GM and F out of petty cash.
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