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Acura RL

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Comments

  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Actually, Cadillac's quality has improved in recent years. It's the only GM brand to make significant strides. Long term reliability is still unproven, but initial quality is pretty good (of course, the same is true of Hyundai).

    "Sure, the RL might compare well to BMW/MB/Audi 6 cyl models, but people who can afford a V-8 will not settle for a V-6." - Chavis

    Both of them are welcome to do so.

    "However, if I'm gonna spend $50-55k, the car better have a V-8." - Chavis

    Which is why Acura has the target price for the new RL set below $50K. Of course, at $50K and even higher, brands like MB and BMW are still expecting you to buy the six cylinder model. You have to go even higher to get similar equipment and that V8.

    Torque and Weight

    I see quite a few posts about torque, but very few regarding weight. Sure a V8 can crank out more torque than a V6. But most of the cars using V8s NEED that torque to haul their bulk down the road. The RL is engineered with aluminum subframes and carbon fiber drivetrain parts to minimize weight.

    I'm willing to bet that Acura hasn't released torque and weight figures because they don't want the competition bench marking their performance at the last minute.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Posts: 1,031
    Well chavis, don't buy the car is all I can say. For those who don't want a V8 in a luxury car, here's another option for them.

    BTW, for those of us looking for a full-size V6 luxury sedan, the RL seems to be a winner. 300HP is ahead of the M35's 270+ and STS' 255.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "Winner" so far in hp among V6 sedans in its class.

    We'll see how it actually performs and drives on the road.

    Personally, I don't think a 300hp/270 torque (estimated) RL with SH-AWD will necessarily accelerate or handle better than a 280hp/270 torque (estimated) M35 with active rear-suspension.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Dunno. Wasn't the LS430 with 290 ponies able to keep up with the Q45 despite a 30 or 40 hp advantage?

    There's more to acceleration than engine specs (assuming they are even accurate).
  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    "There's more to acceleration than engine specs (assuming they are even accurate)."

    Europe has a regulation that tested horsepower must be within a certain range of the stated figure.

    One model whose European stated power is less than the American version is 350Z: 276 vs 287. Maybe that's due to emission controls. But I doubt it, because CA supposedly has the toughest emission regulation anywhere.

    So when in doubt, check the hp rating of the European car!
  • chavis10chavis10 Posts: 166
    Tennis, don't worry, I won't. Where Lexus, Infiniti and Audi shine is the fact that you can get a strong V-8 for the price of a BMW/MB 6 cylinder. There is no excuse as to why a 530i or E320 should cost over $50k with only 225/221 hp. For that money you can get into a GS430 or M45/Q45 with real balls. The excuses will never stop for Acura I see. If say Cadillac or Lincoln tried to market this kind of car (RL), I wonder what people would be saying.
    The bottom line is that Honda/Acura needs a V-8 if they want to be taken seriously. The NSX might be fast and sporty and all that, but $90k for a naturally aspirated V-6? Acura can't do what Porsche can. They need a V-8 and they need a proper RWD chassis. I guess one could argue that Audi has been somewhat successful without a true RWD chassis, but I doubt the sales are there in the A6 4.2 or A8L.
    Like I said, I happen to like the RLs styling somewhat and I'm sure it'll have every toy in the book for a reasonable price. However the fact that its basically an enlarged accord with a rear diff will forever loom in my brain. I personally wouldn't mind having a front or AWD luxury car. I think the market will command otherwise. However, V-8 muscle is mandatory.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Here's you, yet another person, screaming that there's no available V8. Didnt I already answer this question six times? LOOK AT THE SALES FIGURES FOR GS430s! Most people do NOT get the V8. Look at the sales figures for the M45. Its a $45K bargain with 340hp V8 muscle. Its a bomb, a sales disaster. Having a V8 doesnt gaurantee anything. Also, most of you seem to forget how tiny Honda is. The fact that they sell millions of Accords seems to make people think their a GM, or somebody like that. They cant pump out cheesy pushrod V8s every 4 seconds. Honda has three, count em, three V6s in their entire inventory, and two or three four cylinders that are shared between LOTS of cars. Do you really think a company like that would spend the money to develop a V8 for ONE model??

    You also seem to forget that the NSX is FIFTEEN years old. 290hp for a V6 15 years ago was pretty damn good. GS430s sell poorly, the M45 and Q45 are bombs, and the A6 4.2.. well its just a piece of crap, so I wont even go there. Honda cant do what Porsche can? How's that? Honda engineers are probably the world's most brilliant. Who else gets 240hp out of a mass market, N\A 3.0L? Who else gets 240hp out of a 2.2L N\A four cylinder? When they finally get around to updating the NSX, your going to be going "gee, 360hp out of a 3.5L V6, thats such crap. Wheres the V8?"
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    IF you prefer Acura to CAdillac, or any other brand that is your perrogative, but that doesn't make any made up assertions about Cadillac true.

    First of all, most Cadillac models, except maybe the Deville which is four years old, dont even come with cash incentives. Even if they did Cadillac's on average would transact for far more than the average Acura. Acura sells three cars for $33K or less, no other luxury manufacturer sells that many vehicles in that price range. In addition, we all know that Acura/Honda dont believe in national rebate programs, they let dealers do the dirty work on their own. I have a friend that got NAvigation on her TSX for free as an incentive. Anyone who pays above sticker price for a Acura in today's competitive marketplace is either stupid or impatient. Get out of fantasy land.

    As for quality, Cadillac (and some other GM brands) are in the top ten in terms of short term and LONG term quality according to JD power surveys. I believe Cadillac typically places third or fourth in 5 year quality.

    Acura makes nice cars, but their vehicle lineup, power and engine options are not on the same level as Cadillac or the other major luxury marques in the US. Th logic that Acura shouldn't offer a V* because most V6/V8 cars are sold without a V8 is ridiculous. If you want to compete against the GS, 5, E and A6 you need to offer a V8. It's not even about acceleration, it's just the prestige associated with 8 cylinders.

    Anyone who thinks Caddy's interiors are equal to that of a Hyundai is smoking something illegal. Even the current Seville and Deville are beyond that standard, not to mention the XLR, '05 STS and even the SRX. Look and quality are not the same, many journalists don't like the style of the CTS/SRX (personally I don't care what they think, its subjective), but rarely have they been called low rent and never have I read anything about poor build quality. I have been in both models and the interior materials are fine.

    "Funny, every single professional review I've seen of a recent Cadillac (including Edmunds) have slammed them for down market interiors."

    Oh well if edmunds says it, then it must be true. They are definitely known for their objectivity and consistency. When a publication gives 9 out of 10 American made vehicles a poor review and then whole heatedly recommends Passats and Jettas with less than average quality I have a tendency to disregard their opinions.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    The GS has been a flop in general, not just the V8 version. What about the E, STS and 540? Where they flops? Every seville sold had a V8 and it had some pretty good sales years in the past. Your notion than V8 powered cars don't sell it bogus. The M45 and Q45 are ugly and never stood a chance, regardless of what kind of motor they had. Are you suggesting that they would have been better if equipped with a V6? Absolute BS.
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Posts: 351
    1st of all, Honda engineers know a bit about building great cars and powerplants. How the 2 come together in the form of the next RL remains to be seen... looking forward to the enthusiast mags running the RL through its paces.

    As a 2003 BMW 530i (SP,PP,Steptronic,Zenons) "driver", I'm one of those people that appreciates how all the components play together to create the symphony. My guess is that the RL will be a very satisfying piece, but will certainly be lacking in real V8-only grunt for those who desire that characteristic. I'd have loved the 540i, but it did not offer more "BMW-ness" for my dollar. Still wanted the BMW, however, as there are few substitutes - hence the 530.

    Maybe Acura will release a V8 sometime into the model run based upon market reception - who knows? Smart not to do so in the 1st year until they understand how buyers will or will not flock to the showrooms. Remember that AWD adds a weight penalty, so there may be more power coming.

    1st impressions of pic I've seen of the new RL... front end (3/4 & front views) initially looked like the new Pontiac Bonneville... something about the general shape forward of the A-pillars and the headlight housing/cover design. Rear does have the Bangleized effect along the trunk edges like the new 7-Series, but you don't get the bustle-butt impression as with the BMW.

    To me, it's more conservative that the TL, which is a Honda-inspired version of the e39 (IMHO). Still, not an offesive look, but wondering if it will convey the presence that is warranted by $45-50K investment? It's all speculation at this point anyway!

    Interior looks terrific and will most likely be high quality. Nothing will beat an actual comparo by the best in the business, so looking forward to seeing how the new RL will stack up against the A6, 5, E, GS and M.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Posts: 1,031
    Why do some people post in here if you have nothing good to say? I'm not the biggest Cadillac fan yet I don't rant on and on about Cadillac's faults in their forums (atleast, not anymore). C'mon, try ot be positive!
  • pg48477pg48477 Posts: 309
    After reading your post I dont even know what to say, you seems to be all over the map.
    First, rctennis3811 is right this is not a Cadillac forum.

    'Anyone who thinks Caddy's interiors are equal to that of a Hyundai is smoking something illegal.' I don't think it's equal to Hyundai or Kia, I know it and so as many others that can SEE.

    Stop kidding yourself, Cadillac not even close to interior quality and design of Acura vehicles, like new TL and RL. Cadillac spend 20+years doing nothing, thats why they are so behind. With all the finances GM have one can only guess why they don't use it.
    Both Devil and Civil was not a disaster, but they did not sell well.

    Once again, if Acura can produce vehicles for 25K that have more options and better quality than any Cadillac, I say good for Acura. When BMW and Mb charge premium for prestige factor I can understand it, but Cadillac, come on.
    All GM vehicles come with 0% APR 60 month financing, if this is not incentive I don't now what is.
  • chavis10chavis10 Posts: 166
    Let me guess, you're one of those people who is all caught on specific output which has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with performance or economy. Who cares how big the engine is, as long as it produces good results with good economy. First off, nobody said anything about any of those cars being successes. I don't like any of 'em. The point is, they are options and they have V-8s that put to shame any V-6.

    " Honda has three, count em, three V6s in their entire inventory, and two or three four cylinders that are shared between LOTS of cars. Do you really think a company like that would spend the money to develop a V8 for ONE model??"

    Nissan/infiniti did it. Why the hell would a company introduce a V-8 for one car? That is just stupid. The point is a V-8 opens up possibilities for trucks and SUVs. I thought that was obvious, but apparently I was giving too much credit. Acura will never be on the map with the big boys until they have a V-8, it's just that simple. That means no large SUV. That's definitely a market any company would want to be in. You're darn straight I'll be wondering where the V-8 will be in the next NSX. Think about what you just said, 360 hp is good, FOR A V6. It ain't good for the class. Only Porsche can get away with having a 6 in the exotic sports car class. Vette will have 400 standard with a "lowly" pushrod engine 3 times larger than an S2000's, yet returns similiar fuel economy (18/28). Acura will not be able to go any further without a V-8.

    PS, if Acura can do what Porsche does, why hasn't the NSX ever sold and why hasn't it been replaced in 14 years? So much for those brilliant engineers.

    Tennis, you used to always come trash stuff you didn't like so spare me. Anyways, I like the TL and would get it over almost anything in the class if i were in the market. RL is a nice sporty looking car with a thumping 300 horse V-6. Happy now???

    Mowgie, that was the most intelligent post I think I've ever read. Yet another bunch of rhetoric than cannot be substantiated. If you're ready to buy a car that you haven't even in production form, then its true that having money doesn't mean you have brains.
  • chavis10chavis10 Posts: 166
    Where do you guys come up with these claims/statements such as:
    "Once again, if Acura can produce vehicles for 25K that have more options and better quality than any Cadillac, I say good for Acura."

    or:

    "Stop kidding yourself, Cadillac not even close to interior quality and design of Acura vehicles,"

    Based on what? You're kidding yourself. Just about any new vehicle this day and age has acceptable "quality" or materials. What does quality mean anyways. The feel and look of the materials? Or how long they hold up? I believe the Cadillac comments were provoked and 1487 was just responding. Now you're crying, "this isn't a Cadillac topic."

    You people create illusions based on what you like. If you don't like Cadillacs or anything else, that's fine. But don't start making up your own truths about how a luxury car maker's quality is so much worse than anothers. Take VW/Audi for instance. They get praised in the press for their materials, yet I'm under the impression they fall apart soon after you take them home.
  • pg48477pg48477 Posts: 309
    To start Acura sold every single unit of NSX it ever produced with V6 in 14 years and don't forget they charged 90K for it. It was never intended to be a muss production vehicle.

    Lexus have one of the best selling luxury full size SUV with V8 producing 240 HP, less then Acuras MDX with V6. Yes I know V8 has more torque, but it does not move anyway.

     "First off, nobody said anything about any of those cars being successes. I don't like any of 'em. The point is, they are options and they have V-8s that put to shame any V-6. " May be it make sense for you but not to most people here, the point for any manufacturer is to build a successful vehicle, or at least make one to help sell others. This has not been the case for Acura, it had no problems selling it's vehicles without having V8 or a full size car that promotes the brand. If you are shopping for a V6, and not going to buy the car just because it does not come with V8, I don't know what to say.
  • pg48477pg48477 Posts: 309
    "Based on what? You're kidding yourself. Just about any new vehicle this day and age has acceptable "quality" or materials. What does quality mean anyways. The feel and look of the materials? Or how long they hold up? I believe the Cadillac comments were provoked and 1487 was just responding. Now you're crying, "this isn't a Cadillac topic." "
    Based on what you just said: The feel and looks of the materials and how long they hold up.

    "Just about any new vehicle this day and age has acceptable "quality" or materials" You right again, just about any vehicle, except Acura Lexus MB and Audi.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I love these clever little takes on my name, it reminds me of games I used to play on the school yard.

    "Anyone who pays above sticker price for a Acura in today's competitive marketplace is either stupid or impatient". I guess you werent at an Acura dealership when the MDX hit. There was a YEAR LONG waiting list to get your hands on one. The dealer told me they had several offers to buy the test drive mule, at as much as $5,000 above msrp. When's the last time Cadillac had a year long wait for anything?

    I haven't smoked anything illegal since college, and yet I still think the current Deville and Seville have absolute garbage inside for their pricetags, which may partially explain the what, 40% residual after 2 years? I sat inside the new XLR at the NY auto show. For $75K their effort is simply embarrasing. Cheap plastics all over the doors and console, and when I shut the door, it gave the reassuring sound of a '00 Kia Sephia. The $30K ES330 is absolutely light years ahead of the XLR in terms of interior quality.

    If you have such little respect for Edmunds editors and their opinions, why are you even here at all? Its more than obvious that you are a GM till I die zealot, so why even read reviews at all? Nothing (in your mind) can measure up to the all mighty "standard of the world" that sells no cars outside of the US.
  • cericceric Posts: 1,093
    " If you're ready to buy a car that you haven't even in production form, then its true that having money doesn't mean you have brains. "

    Well, this reminds me of all the married people who got married before seeing the "production form" of their spouse. I guess we are all guilty of that, having no brain.
    Amen!
  • pg48477pg48477 Posts: 309
    I owned I few American and foreign vehicles over the years. To mention a few : 88 Buick Park Ave , 93 Camry, 95 Maxima, 93 Legend, 2002 TL. I have good memories of Buick being it's the first car I ever owned. It was a very nice ride and had good pick up. Can you believe the car had leather, moonroof, climate control, ABS and memory seats in 1988? But over the years, American cars stayed at the same level with the same 3.8 engine, making 200HP. I have to tell you though, interior quality went down big time. I also owed few Japanese cars, and I have trust in Acura and Lexus. I would also put a down payment on new RL, without seeing the final version of the vehicle.
  • cericceric Posts: 1,093
    " If you're ready to buy a car that you haven't even in production form, then its true that having money doesn't mean you have brains. "

    Well, this reminds me of all the married people who got married before seeing the "production form" of their spouse. I guess we are all guilty of that, having no brain.
    Amen!
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    aren't the only people who think it's a MUST to have a v8 in order for a car to be considered a luxury car the ones with more money than brains?

    unless i'm towing a boat or if the RL weights a lot more than i think it does than the v8 is not required.
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Posts: 776
    "Nissan/infiniti did it. Why the hell would a company introduce a V-8 for one car? That is just stupid. The point is a V-8 opens up possibilities for trucks and SUVs. I thought that was obvious, but apparently I was giving too much credit. Acura will never be on the map with the big boys until they have a V-8, it's just that simple. That means no large SUV. That's definitely a market any company would want to be in. You're darn straight I'll be wondering where the V-8 will be in the next NSX. Think about what you just said, 360 hp is good, FOR A V6. It ain't good for the class. Only Porsche can get away with having a 6 in the exotic sports car class. Vette will have 400 standard with a "lowly" pushrod engine 3 times larger than an S2000's, yet returns similiar fuel economy (18/28). Acura will not be able to go any further without a V-8."

    You know, maybe you should just accept the fact that Acura doesn't want you as a customer? I mean, Honda's general disdain for big, heavy V8-powered trucks is pretty well known. That's their choice, their corporate philosophy, and they've done very well as a company by appealing to the great many of us who don't need nor want V8-powered trucks to drive to work every morning. With all due respect, who are you to demand Honda to tailor its product offerings to you? When was the last time you bought a V8-powered luxury sedan?

    It's nice to see an automaker that pursues a belief system rather than blindly pursuing market share. I mean, anyone can build a V8 but how many people invest in SULEV? I like (and BUY) Honda for those reasons. So do many others. If their desire to stay their course leaves a gap in their product lineup that leaves your heart feeling empty, well, click the little X in the upper right hand corner of this window, get a copy of the classifieds, and go buy a used Camaro. I hear they have V8s, and Chevy has trucks. This should make you very happy. I wish you the greatest of luck with your GS430, S500, 545i, Q45, and/or A8. Meanwhile the rest of us will have to make do with an unprestigious underpowered sedan whose powerplant sadly isn't shared with some trucks :(
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Very well said gentlemen. People are acting like the RL's V6 will be something like the S2000's or Subie WRX's 4s, where you have to drop the clutch (which there wont be one) at 5,000rpm to get any power. 300hp and "only" 260-280lb ft. of torque? Oh no! Thats horrible! How will it move at all? Take a look at the Ford Freestar vs. the Quest or Sienna. The Ford beats them in torque with the 4.2L engine, yet its meager 201hp means it will lose any stop light race. Or look at the M3 vs. the C32 AMG. The M's "down on torque" brilliant 3.2L N\A engine makes less HP and almost 100lb. ft less torque than the Mercedes supercharged 3.2L, and yet.. the M3 will stomp the C32. What happened? I thought power numbers meant everything? How does a 290hp LS430 stomp a 340hp Q45? In that case, an awesome six speed auto, vs. the Qs sluggish piece of garbage. Who makes some of the worlds best transmissions? Why, Honda does.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Just a couple of things that strike me here:

    "To start Acura sold every single unit of NSX it ever produced with V6 in 14 years and don't forget they charged 90K for it. It was never intended to be a muss production vehicle.

    The Acura NSX wasn't meant to be a volume car, true, but the car has been a commercial failure, mainly because it has been around in same form for way too many years, because it was a leader back in 1990. However, there is no way Honda wanted the NSX to be the most invisible car in this class. Nobody even looks at the NSX anymore, and Ferrari/Porsche are about 2 generations in design ahead. Of course they sold every one of them (NSX), they aren't bringing any over in the first place!!! When a Ferrari that costs twice as much outsells your competing product you have a problem. The NSX is not exclusive by choice.

    lexusguy,

    Yes Honda engineers are brilliant, but they aren't the only ones. I think BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Ferrari, Porsche and others have proven to have just as brilliant a group of engineers. I agree that V8 luxury cars don't sell enough for Honda to go there, but at the end of the day in America the land of the Vee-eight, they need one if for no other reason than bragging rights. Will they miss out on a boatload of sales without it, NO. Will Acura's image remain a little below some of the others luxury car players? Yes. Not going to get into where I think the nameplates place.

    The next NSX will no doubt be a piece of work, but a 360hp V6 (where did you get that number?) isn't going to mean much unless the car is super-light. Think about it the Ferrari 360 Modena came out in 1999 with 400hp and was seen as the car to beat, now Ford, Lamborghini and Porsche have all answered with 550hp, 493hp, and 477hp (GT, Gallardo, 911GT2) respectively. The standard now is 500hp and Honda will be hard pressed to match these cars when not measuring handling. Watch the updated 360 Modena push 480hp+.
    _____________________________________

    One thing is true though; the Q45 and M45 in their current forms wouldn't have sold better with a V6, I6, straight-8 (well maybe) or a V12. The many reasons why this is have been stated by me and others a many times before so no need to do that here.

    chavis10,

    All I can say is go sit in the CTS and then compare it to a TSX or TL, the Cadillac just doesn't feel all of one piece or as well put together as the Acuras. I can't believe you and 1487 are still at this in another topic (and Acura topic no less), and just like I stated in the E-Class topic, the GM rhetoric isn't going to fly here either. Sure some of the rhetoric here is over the top (on both sides), but people know better when things are obvious like build quality.

    M
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Is the 3.5 in the RL an upgraded version of the engine in the Pilot/MDX/Odyssey? Or is it a brand new engine?
  • chavis10chavis10 Posts: 166
    Merc, my cousin just recentely purchased a TSX, so I've been in it. What's the big deal. It looks nice, nothing to fancy. Just a bunch of silver plastic all over the place which I guess is the norm. I think the "quality" is exaggerated. Nothing wrong with the interior but nothing that made me say wow, this is a fine quality interior. Secondly, I never said anything about the CTS or its interior being better than anything else. According to you, the "GM rhetoric" won't even fly in a GM topic so you can save your breath.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    GM supporters never get the subjectives or details on anything even when it comes to interiors I guess. Everything looks ok and what not, no difference from one car to the next.

    Oh and the GM rhetoric does fly in the GM topics where everything GM rules...only in that delusional world. Hey, I'm not the one that needs to save my breath, check the title of the thread and then look at your posts, you're the one that could have saved at lot of breath (typing) so far, not me.

    M
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    "Let me guess, you're one of those people who is all caught on specific output which has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with performance or economy..."

    Okay. Engine specs don't matter.

    "...The point is, they are options and they have V-8s that put to shame any V-6."

    But the number of cylinders does?!?!
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    . There is no excuse as to why a 530i or E320 should cost over $50k with only 225/221 hp. For that money you can get into a GS430 or M45/Q45 with real balls.

    And yet, GS430, M45 and Q45 are sales failures. Why? V8s are unnecessary for anything but bragging rights. Believe me, RL will do just fine with power that competes with V8s but using a package that rivals the lightest and most compact V6s. Thats smart engineering (and marketing).
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Jrock - No one is quite certain about the engine. It is tranversely mounted (unlike the old RL block) and displaces the same 3.5L as the one in the MDX, Pilot, and Ody. It's an OHC design with variable valve timing, but there's been no mention of VTC or whether the valves are variable on both the intake and exhaust.

    In short, it's *probably* the same block, just retuned. It's certainly not the old one.
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