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Comments
You're right, but riddle me this? How often is a Honda automatic tranny going to let you hit 5,000 rpms?
From personal experience- anytime you want.
Anyone with any reasonable experience driving an auto should be adept at using the amount of throttle to give the transmission cues as to what to do, shiftwise.
P.S. The fact that you have to play charades with your own transmission is highly annoying (and is why my next car will be a manual) but you definitely can do it.
These tires start at about $280 and go to $355 each! (see tirerack.com)
Ouch!
But there is more to it than just first gear. If you’re cruising at 60 mph in fifth, at 2300 rpm or so, and depress throttle to accelerate, the transmission will switch to the second or third gear, and the revs will jump up to 4500 rpm or so, as you start to accelerate to overtake a slow moving vehicle. Another instance where you want more horsepower and you don’t get it by keeping the engine at low rpm.
Let me make an analogy here. A big displacement engine is like a weightlifter A small displacement engine is like a sprinter .
A very poor analogy and suggests nothing. You need a minimum amount of energy to get a work done. Just because an engine displaces more doesn’t mean it will need less energy to do the job, or would it?
There are a multitude of efficiencies related to an engine, and one of them is the volumetric efficiency. If an engine displaces 3.0-liter, it doesn’t mean it always displaces 3.0-liters. Mechanical inefficiencies will tend to vary how much air gets in (and out). For sake of simplicity, let us assume that volumetric efficiency is 100%, so an engine always breathes in to fill the cylinders.
Then comes the aspect of air to fuel ratio. If at an instance the engine runs at AFR of 15.00:1, would the fuel required to combust 2.0-liter air be more than the fuel required to combust in, say, a 2.5-liter engine? If the efficiencies of both engines are identical, you would expect the 2.5 to burn 25% more fuel, but also develop 25% more power.
Now, to get back to the topic (“RL”), but continuing with “engine discussion”, here is an interesting comparison based on rumored numbers for RL, and based on supposedly official numbers for STS
Acura RL
3.5-liter V6: 300 HP @ 6200 rpm, 260 lb.-ft @ 5000 rpm; Red line: 6800 rpm
Cadillac STS
3.6-liter V6: 255 HP @ 6500 rpm, 252 lb.-ft @ 3200 rpm; Red line: 6700 rpm
The Acura V6 gets an additional 45 HP at lower engine speed, clearly indicating that the engine is making more torque in the mid range thru the top end. At the low-end, they seem to be on par. And given that, the Cadillac V6 appears to be peaky, compared to the Acura V6, while both use their own versions of variable valve timing.
No you haven't b/c you said you hardly ever drive over 3,000 rpm. Stop changing your story.
Re my Weightlifter vs. Sprinter analogy, it's being used to describe my gut feeling that the 3.5L SOHC v6 in my MDX is underpowered for this size and weight vehicle. I'm not trying to prove anything. IMO a bigger displacement engine with DoD would give more power and better gas mileage, city or highway.
I don't understand your comparo of the Acura RL's 3.5L v6 vs. GM's new DOHC 3.6L v6. Nobody even knows the specs of the RL's 3.5 v6. We're all just guessing at this point. Production numbers may be significantly different.
Besides, you're comparing a 3.5L v6 that Honda has specially designed for the RL to a modular engine that GM has designed to be used in FWD, RWD, and AWD cars along with having different displacements (from 2.8 to 3.8L). Also, GM has built in failsafe and low maintenance technologies into its v6 (same stuff as in the Northstar), which probably have a negative impact on performance.
Furthermore, while Honda is focusing on peak HP, GM has focused on maximizing low end torque as max torque is available at 3,200 rpm and
according to this article "90 per cent of the 3.6-litre engine's torque is available from as low as 1600rpm, all the way to 5800rpm."
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/gmengine.htm
Now THAT is an impressive torque curve.
When did I say I never drive over 3000 rpm? I said, most of my driving involves sub-3000 rpm driving, and that is a fact! But, I do cross 5000 rpm (several times a day, if driving on freeway), but as a percentage of total driving time, that is minimal. This shouldn’t be too hard to digest.
Re my Weightlifter vs. Sprinter analogy, it's being used to describe my gut feeling
Like I said, bad analogy. In fact, it doesn’t apply at all!
I don't understand your comparo of the Acura RL's 3.5L v6 vs. GM's new DOHC 3.6L v6. Nobody even knows the specs of the RL's 3.5 v6.
I never said it was official. Read my last post again.
Besides, you're comparing a 3.5L v6 that Honda has specially designed for the RL
I didn’t know that. Where did you learn about it? As of now, I think RL will use the J35A. Regardless, comparing output of two engines, with nearly identical displacement and in competing cars makes perfect sense to me, regardless of them being “modular design or not”.
Furthermore, while Honda is focusing on peak HP, GM has focused on maximizing low end torque as max torque is available at 3,200 rpm and according to this article "90 per cent of the 3.6-litre engine's torque is available from as low as 1600rpm, all the way to 5800rpm."
I knew you’d mention this. If the Cadillac 3.6/V6 does produce 226 lb.-ft at 1600 rpm (90% of 252 lb.-ft), it is indeed a good output. But, how do you know it is producing more torque than the Acura (RL) 3.5/V6 at 1600 rpm?
Now, we don’t know anything about RL engine, but we do know about MDX engine (and can safely assume the RL engine will be a derivative of the same). And MDX engine seems to produce 310-315 Nm (about 230 lb.-ft) at 1500 rpm (refer the dyno from several posts ago). And that doesn’t impress you?
Even if we assume Acura 3.5/V6 produces same torque at low end (under 3500 rpm) as the Cadillac 3.6/V6, it is producing more torque beyond that as well! So much for emphasis at the low end, when it is possible to emphasize it across the rev range.
As for my analogy, it's not meant to be a primer in engine management. It's meant to show my GUT feeling that the 3.5L SOHC v6 in the MDX is underpowered in terms of low end torque for a car the size of the MDX. I think it'll be fine for the RL, though, due to lower weight.
Let's stick to the RL. This ain't a "Non-Existent Honda Engine vs. GM's DOHC 3.6L v6" thread.
Are you able to devine an actual tire size? I'd like to look them up.
Also, going to 45 series tires would allow enough comfort and sportiness to make both camps happy especially if the customer could choose between UHP all season tires and UHP/Max performance summer only tires.
17" wheels at "this class" are OK but 18" wheels are certainly becoming the expectation...even the Chrylser 300C has 18" wheels (although the tire size on that baby are, um, odd. . . .)
Just a thought. . . .
Flattening the torque curve at above 5,000 rpms is a LOT less useful than flattening the torque curve below 5,000 rpms, especially if one has an auto tranny.
Re underpowered, it's a matter of opinion. I think the MDX is fine after you get into 2,000 rpms in 2nd gear, but below that point, the engine really strains to move such a heavy car.
I'd like to have more low end torque. For example, the 275 ft-lb in the 4.2L I6 Trailblazer engine would do it for me.
I think the new 3 series in Julu 05' should be nice, sounds like it will be similar to the old 5 series and 3 series combined.
Here is a link to the available engine options for the 3 series.
http://www2.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=3043&ca- tegoryId=10
later
Maybe for the 4 series? Maybe for the M3 or M4?
I find it odd that BMW is going for turbo as well, since they're pretty hard-core about naturally aspirated engines. Their marketing literature is filled with putdowns of turbo, claiming that turbolag ruins the "instant response of a true BMW" or other marketing gobbledygook.
What is your opinion on an engine that gives you strong torque curve at low rpm, mid range and top end? Is it bad idea to get more torque at high rpm even if it doesn't affect the low end, and even if it is "less useful" (as you put it) than "some engine speed" that is supposedly more useful?
The dyno of Acura 3.5/V6 (which, BTW, is an existing engine) clearly shows engine delivering about 310 Nm at 1500 rpm (310 Nm = 230 lb.-ft), and it continues to develop at least as much until about 6000 rpm. Why would it be better to see a drop in torque curve after 5000 rpm in this case? Explain.
If it takes a 4.2- liter engine to move you, then there is no point taking this further. But you must realize that a 3.5-liter displacement can do only so much in terms of torque. A 4.2-liter engine displaces 20% more, so if Acura were to develop a 4.2 engine, I would expect it to produce at least 300 lb.-ft (not 275 lb.-ft) at peak.
Jim
As long as it doesn't affect low to mid range, it's OK. I'm not criticizing Honda's work with the TSX. I'm just saying that a significant number of drivers (especially those with auto trannies) are never (or very rarely) going to appreciate the work that Honda put into flattening the torque curve at higher rpms.
The dyno of Acura 3.5/V6 (which, BTW, is an existing engine) clearly shows engine delivering about 310 Nm at 1500 rpm (310 Nm = 230 lb.-ft), and it continues to develop at least as much until about 6000 rpm. Why would it be better to see a drop in torque curve after 5000 rpm in this case? Explain.
I never said maintaining a flat torque curve beyond 5,000 rpms was bad. I said that most drivers of automatics will never get above 5,000 rpms, so how useful is flattening the torque curve beyond 5,000 rpms going to be?
I drive my MDX pretty hard and I never get it above 4,500 rpms. I suppose if I really stomped the pedal I could get it to 5,000 rpms before the shift, but why? Is it safe to drive a 4,500 pound SUV like that?
Rumors have suggested a curb weight of 1700 kg (3750 lb.), but we must also consider all the frills that add weight. For instance, just adding NAV seems to add 20-25 lb. to the curb weight.
To them who do (like me). Hey, you can’t blame GM for equipping Corvette with 350+ HP engines, if a person isn’t using the potential. Could you? :-)
This goes on to say that most large V8 engines are useless (more so than flattening of torque curves at any engine speed). But, I’m aware that you will never agree to it.
I drive my MDX pretty hard and I never get it above 4,500 rpms. I suppose if I really stomped the pedal I could get it to 5,000 rpms before the shift, but why? Is it safe to drive a 4,500 pound SUV like that?
What has 5000 rpm got to do with safety? Are you suggesting that the MDX tends to be a bit too powerful past 5000 rpm? Believe it or not, modern engines are being increasingly designed to deliver peak power around 6000 rpm or higher. Even the Trailblazer 4.2/I-6 gets its 270 HP at 6000 rpm. How is it a terrible idea for Acura to get 265 HP at 5800 rpm?
I asked my bro, a mechanic, what he thought and here's a summary of his opinions:
1. Occasionally redlining an engine is OK because it can help the oil seals to seal. BUT it should not be done prior to completion of break-in period as it will carbonate various engine parts, scratch the pistons, and greatly reduce the life of the engine.
2. Constantly redlining can only be maintained if you regularly change oil. If you're going to redline your engine constantly, he recommends changing oil every 1,500 miles, or better yet, use Mobil 1 and change it frequently.
3. You will need to change your timing belt MUCH more frequently if you constantly redline your engine. He recommends checking your timing belt at least once a month if you redline frequently.
4. High revving will magnify any imperfecton in the engine and often cause a host of related problems. For example, one of his customes who has a leadfoot brought his car to be fixed and it had a small defective area in the manifold. High revving caused that area to warp more and faster than it should have. Because this customer failed to have the manifold replaced, and continued to redline his car, his engine suffered a host of other problems due to faulty intake. Therefore, someone who revs their engine a lot should check it much more frequently to make sure there are no such imperfections.
Yesterday, I went to Barnes & Noble and made my way around to the magazine section. Since I subscribe to just about anything car related, I often browse to see if there is something I missed.
Somehow, I let my European Car magazine subscription lapse.
New issue has both Audi TT and VW R32 on cover -- but the cover declares that inside there is a test of the new Audi A6. I have been reading so much stuff on the A6 and hunting for scraps on the RL and here again another magazine weighing in on the new Audi.
European Car has not been all that kind to the A6 over the past few years. S6, RS 6 -- oh sure they gush over those. But the so called middle child has often been damned with faint praise or sometimes dis'd altogether.
So, I opened the magazine half expecting some "left handed" compliments about the new A6, comparisons perhaps to the current (that is to say newest) BMW 5 series or perhaps even MB E class.
No way.
Whatever Audi has done has now, seemingly, impressed every editor that is given any column inches. The gushing, normally reserved for cars such as the RS 6 was now being lauded upon the new A6 IN BOTH V6 and V8 guise. Indeed, considerable ink was spent specifically on the V6 equipped car to claim, something like this: "you might think this car with the 3.2L would be a dog -- not so. . . ."
The tag line was "both sporty and elegant."
Now, those long term posters here in Acura-for-05-land, ought to know that I, for one, have pretty much narrowed down the next car to be parked in our garage as either the RL or the A6. The recent test drive of the Acrua TL, opening our eyes -- to say nothing of the argument I keep hearing from many on this board who claim that Acura is even more derserving of the phrase than Timex (and you know what phrase that is).
This article is exactly what is needed NOW about the new RL. I mean, after all, with a $43K base price for the A6 and a $49,650 base for the RL, well, $6,650 will -- even on a German -- buy some pretty sweet option packages.
I always used to think Audi (and even VW to a certain extent) had their timing all wrong and their ad-packages all wrong. I mean, I cannot even remember the last Audi TV spot I've seen in 2004.
In any case, this industry seems to thrive on buzz -- where oh where is the Acura buzz.
I would think, all the constant good press on the A6 has to "wound" the upcoming Acura a little bit, especially since even its most diehard fans, journalists and pundits often call the upcoming RL the "Japanese Audi A6."
If I were Acura and I had my magic wand, I would be making sure that EVERY auto mag worth mentioning could get its hands on the new RL, sooner rather than later.
geez guys, i think I saw the RL's ~dissapointing if 17"~ wheels turn 40 times and the thing hasn't hit the road!
Maneesh, I've come to respect your knowledge of honda engines by reading your posts for several years on various edmunds fora, but you gotta let go.
ksso
sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes you are the bug!
I got this tidbit from another forum and they refer to this link:
http://www.globalauto.net/clipsheet.cfm?article_id=1866&today- =06/22/04&mode=display&brand_id=3
The rumor refers to ongoing testing of a V8 prototype that will find several applications in the Acura lineup starting in 2007.
Ciao, ciao.
CNNfn - June 30 1999 - "Honda to produce its first production V8s"
The Press Company Multilink
"The next generation NSX and Legend models from Honda will share a brand-new 4.0 litre V8 based on the technology used in the new S2000 sports car. The NSX replacement will be a 380kW (509 HP!) all-alloy mid-engined design, while the Legend will use the same engine in detuned form mounted up front but driving the rear wheels.
Honda is in no hurry to build the new NSX as its specialist Tochigi factory is already running at full capacity, coping with demand for the S2000, which is running at several times the initial predictions for the car."
But we all know, that hasn't happened (or there has been no follow up to the report).
That said, looking at the history, Honda seems to have resisted the urge to develop and deliver V6 engines, and then came the diesel. So, it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if we do see a V8 from Honda. Then, we will start talking about V10s and V12s.
In case of NSX, I don’t think the car needs a V8, but most people seem to want it. Instead, I would prefer to see the car have a sub-3K lb. curb weight like it did in 1989-90.
So, from marketing point of view, Honda needs to develop a V8, and possibly use a bored/stroked version in its rumored premium sedan and even in couple of truck offerings, and even a new trim level for the RL.
ksso
There are a lot of things that Honda and Acura do well: building well crafted, quality automobiles renown for the reliabiilty and precision engineering.
What they don't do particularly well, in my view, is advertise or market well. Many of their prior TV ads for prior year RLs have been lackluster at best, and nearly always unmemorable. Add to this that they maintain an almost paranoid secrecy, holding their cards very close to their chests, leaving little but a black hole -- a void -- a dearth of information.
I hope that the recent article in Automobile Magazine is not a portent of things to come for the new RL, but I have a feeling it may well be.
For all of the wizardry that the SH-AWD created, whatever buzz it started back at the New York auto show, it has long since stopped vibrating. Edmunds.com's editiors refers to the new styling of the 2005 Acura RL as a bit bland.
I agree with Mark, we need to be reading and hearing a lot about this car now. Saying nothing meanwhile the new A6 steals all the thunder is not good strategy, IMO. Just remember when the G35 was soon to reach the market. Infiniti had tease ads running several months before launch, and auto history knows that the G35 went on to do just fine. Granted, it had bold new looks and acclaimed performance, but I digress.
Mark - Yeah, it looks like Audi has created what I call a flawless car. Sometimes a car doesn't need to be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. It doesn't need to have the most hp, the best handling, or best of anything. If the car eliminates anything that might annoy the driver and offers up a decent package, it wins accolades. I think the Accord often wins praise for doing things that way. Based on what I've read about the new A6, I'd say they've done the same. There's simply nothing to complain about.
Legendman - Honda has always kept official new model information secret until just a few months before release. I understand that can be frustrating for the enthusiasts out here, but it's worked in the past. I believe the sales paradigm in effect is something like, "have your PR peak when the car is actually for sale." The limelight will only last so long.
The M45, which I had hoped would be offered in AWD, will only be RWD. The M35, I suspect may not have the performance that I long for (but YOU may be right, read on).
Having said that, the M35 probably would make it on my list if not for the following final reason: I have a LONG-Term relationship with the ownership of the Acura and Audi dealership. Although the dealerships are NOT physically close to each other (5 miles or so apart). I have been an Audi customer since 1977, bought all 27 cars from the same dealership -- and the Acura and Audi dealerships are owned by the same folks.
So, on top of the disappointment in the dropping of the M45 from the AWD ranks, I would, if at all possible like to maintain an almost 30 year relationship. It is more of a service issue than a price issue. The owner has been there when I needed help and I keep buying cars from him (full-disclosure, he also owns the Cadillac and Hummer dealer too).
My initial thoughts were Acura, Audi and Cadillac with an asterisk next to the Chrysler 300C (even though this owner does not have a Chryco dealership).
We test drove all the other cars with an open mind -- and try as we might, we couldn't get any emotion going with any cars other than the Acura (TL, remember) and the Audis. We really hoped to get excited by the Bimmers (and the performance versions RWD were nice -- the AWD versions are sorta like "afterthoughts" in that department, especially when you can drive an UltraSport A4 back to back with a Bimmer "x" and see who is really serious about AWD, IMHO).
From a price standpoint, my wife works for a Fortune 1000 company that has an employee plan with Volvo -- and we have played with the notion of buying two of them (an S60 type R and an S40 T5 AWD) since the discounts and deals for leases, too, are very tempting.
So, this, at this point, is "nothing too earth shattering" against the Infinity or a Lexus, to name but two. But, you see, the characterization of the Acuras as Japanese Audis and our long love affairs with Audis, well -- perhaps you can see the "cut of my jib" now and understand that the Infinity would have to overcome the relationship hurdle that the Acura does not have to overcome.
Besides, ON PAPER, the Acura looks to be every bit the M35's rival (and perhaps "then some!").
Now, however, therefore, notwithstanding -- it is NOT beyond the pale that my wife and I will eventually at least "test drive" the M35 when the time comes. I have nothing against Infinity, per se, in other words.
Are you thinking that the M35 will be "more attractive" than the RL?
Then again, today, I read about some interesting Acruas and Audis that are in the pipeline.
I agree with you and mcincinnati and I'd certainly like to get more info. on the RL and I think the buzz should help as well.
OTOH, Acura's sales are doing real well so it's hard to criticize their close-vested strategy because it has, after all, worked.
Whether better marketing would work better is just not answerable b/c Honda doesn't seem to want to do it.
Sometimes a car doesn't need to be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. It doesn't need to have the most hp, the best handling, or best of anything. If the car eliminates anything that might annoy the driver and offers up a decent package, it wins accolades. --varmint
Well said. I like the TL better than the BMW 5 series, despite the occasional torque steer on the TL, b/c i-drive and BMW's interior ergonomics are so annoying.
A lot of times our choices are driven by what we DISLIKE the least, rather than what we like the most.
When will this model be for sale?
Do we know how it performs -- will it handle well, or is it sloppy like the Q45? What have the road tests revealed?
BTW, I agree too, that the TL has better styling than the RL.
Hey Varmint:
Not looking to get into a debate over this point, but the fact that that is how they've always done it doesn't mean it's smart. And clearly they ain't been doing too good on prior RLs.
As far as the other models, well, Acura makes good cars, those cars get good reviews, and there are a lot of former Honda owners, who move up to Acura after good experience with the Hondas. But in terms of attracting new buyers, or keeping old customers loyal, I think they miss the boat.
No, I have to respectfully disagree. They need to get the word out. Honda and Acura have always played it very reserved -- and in my view, they are out of date in their marketing approaches. Very sleepy stuff.
Consider the current Jaguar commercials. They have energy, and excitement, and are memorable. Same too with BMW ads.
If you take G35 for example: Infinity made a good job to let people know about it, but when the car came out it did not sell as well as TL(3-4 years old model), in fact G35 never sold more cars in a month than any TL old or new.
That's a nice big picture you've got there, but the car looks like a really expensive... Altima. It doesn't have trunk-hump, but it does have (at least to my eyes) Altima-[non-permissible content removed]. YMMV
"First, that new platform. Who knew the last G35 was so loose? Driving an old G35 back-to-back against the new M45 at Nissan's desert proving grounds, the first thing you notice, before the big whoomph of that V8, is the improvement in torsional stiffness. Engineers added three new crossmembers and 250 spot- and arc-welds. Torsional rigidity goes up by 30 percent, which isn't remarkable, but front lateral stiffness increases by 1400 percent. That is not a typo. Infiniti showed us computer simulations of the front ends of the old G35 and the new M45, and the old looks like a fish flopping on a boat deck by comparison.
The stiffness is what you feel on the road. It comes across mostly as better steering-more in touch with the road-but you also feel less flex and twist in the front end. It uses a new variable-assist steering system, combined with optional passive steering, electronically controlled at the rear. It changes the rear suspension geometry up to one degree."
In addition to that good stuff, it also has some Infiniti firsts and some safety stuff NOT EVEN ON A MERCEDES
"Chock full of the features that most people expect in a luxury car, the Infiniti M45 Concept is particularly notable for the industry’s first use of a Lane Departure Warning (LDW) system. This technology, developed by Iteris, reads lane markings and warns the driver if unintended lane drift is detected. The Infiniti M45 Concept also employs pre-crash front seatbelts that can sense an impending collision and prepare the restraints for impact.
Additional techie bits and pieces include HID headlights that swivel with the steering to help illuminate around curves, intelligent cruise control designed to maintain a safe distance behind the car ahead, and voice recognition technology for a number of interior features."
I agree with you about the "expensive Altima" look... along with its "next generation Chevy Impala" inspired roofline, the Infiniti standard "mouth full of braces" grille and those really gawdawful taillights, this car doesn't grab me at all.
In the end, driving experience, and the feel aspect, is all that will count.
Frankly, I think the Altima is a good looking sedan, certainly better looking car than the Accord.
My only beef with the M35 is that Nissan has launched a lot of new product and I don't know that quality control has kept up.