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Comments
I take these with a grain of salt, because my personal recent experiences have not had many bumps in the road and no issues that cause me to be stranded.
So, those of us who have a "particular" predilection for a brand (I, thus far, for Audi) and who have never been stranded are not "off their rockers," likewise, if a Jaguar or Lexus ever left you stranded, it would be the last one you would consider?
For me, this time, I am struggling with yet another characteristic -- value. I have mentioned that I cannot find the value in BMW, even though I have never driven a bad one (actually owned one for almost three years, in fact) -- and I am beginning to think that the $50K RL may be "more car" than a similarly priced A6 (also for '05). Indeed, I actually have been boning up on the GS300 for '06, to make certain I fully consider the "contenders" in the Premium Sporty car market (some 9 months from now).
This forum and the spate of test drives my wife and I have taken, has made my choice less obvious than ever before. A back to back test of the new A6 and RL will hopefully be very revealing.
Another thing I have been able to confirm, the RL will have On*Star and at least for '05 Audi will not. My 2003 allroad does have On*star and I do use it regularly and frequently especially when I travel (generally within 250 miles of Cincinnati). This may be a plus for Acrua and a minus for the Audi too.
So, I remain impressed that I finally found someone who has a long list of problems with his Acura -- like I said before, in an odd way, this indication of less than perfect reliability is, for the Acura, a plus. Indeed, even your comments about your Jaguar hardly make it seem like a car to avoid. In the Jag's case, however, I am less enthusiastic about its styling, so for the mean time, it is "off" my list altogether.
But remember, my list fundamentally may be flawed as I am not even considering any vehicle that cannot be had with AWD. Of course, the Acura passes as does the Audi -- and as you and others have pointed out, there are more AWD variants coming with each passing MY.
Statistics can help us understand the bigger picture, not personal experience. What, some might call perception, exists for reason(s). Acura RL and Lexus LS have been held high in terms of reliability, and that must be with a reason. It does not mean that 100% of their owners have had cars without trouble.
I really think this would make a great car one of the truly best.
Thanks
If there is any argument that can be made against new RL, it would be that the V6 can't match "the low-end torque" of a 4.0-4.5 liter V8. IMA can easily address that.
ksso
The VW Touareg TDI has a twin turbodiesel V10 engine that produces 310 hps and 500 #-in of torque, and it redlines around 4,400 rpm, and EPA for the car is 17 city/23 highway. I do not think any car with V10 with this much output will have this kind of mpg. Plus, I think diesel is like 30c/g. And from another article I read, it id very common for diesel engine to have average mpg in a range of 35mpg, so if your oil is 18 g., then your driving range would be around 630 miles.
I think by 2006, people will consider to switch to diesel. I know I would give diesel a try.
I want to see hybrid technology evolve (and it doesn’t have to be gasoline based, since it could use diesel and some fuel cell prototypes are hybrids as well) and for good reasons. Cars like RL can benefit from it, with added low-end torque (when needed) to curb the “demand” of “must have V8”, and without having to burn more fuel, instead potentially save some besides improvement in terms of emissions. And since cars in this price class are not as price sensitive as are the cars in $15-25K price range, it would be much easier to go with more frills (like, use of ultra capacitor instead of batteries).
I also see possibility of AWD systems using electric motors (several prototypes have been shown) to replace (or compete with) mechanical/electronic AWD systems. Both choices add weight and cost, but only one can improve fuel economy, emissions and add power.
And as I understand it, even the most advanced and cleanest diesels currently available would fall considerably short of meeting the much tougher emissions standards that will be put in place in California in the next couple of years. Given the size of the market for luxury cars in California, if a diesel luxury car would in fact not be able to be sold in that state, it would be a significant downside for the manufacturer.
I'm very curious to see what kind of mileage ratings the new "big engine" hybrids such as the Accord V6 hybrid and the rumored RL hybrid would get. So far, all we've seen in the US are smaller hybrids with 4-cyl engines as the gasoline powered component. At least in the case of the Accord, it doesn't seem like power is a problem, since the hybrid will be rated at 15 hp higher than the standard V6.
Besides, diesel engines tend to be heavier. Honda 2.2-liter i-CTDi weighs about 375 lb., about 70-90 lb. more than Honda 2.2-liter DOHC VTEC (Prelude). For that kind of additional weight, a more powerful electric motor can be added to boost low end torque, emissions and fuel economy without giving up available power at the top end.
So the excessive weight penalty one normally associates with diesels may be a thing of the past.
Bob
The Telegraph: Honda Accord (Diesel)
BTW, the “mpg” ratings use “Imperial Gallon”. Correct me if I’m wrong, 40 mpg in UK would be 33 mpg in the USA.
A mild hybrid system seems to add 60-70 lb. as well (mostly from batteries, and that could improve over time). Much of the weight of the electric motor in Honda IMA system is nullified by reduction in weight of the flywheel (since they are bolted to each other directly).
This takes us to potential development of diesel engine for future RL/Legend. In a power hungry market, RL will need to have substantial power. Even if Honda developed a 3.5-liter V6 version of its diesel engine, it would be rated at 225 HP/400 lb.-ft (or something like that). Impressive it would be, but in terms of performance, it may only match the gasoline V6. And saying “225 HP” does not work as well as saying “300 HP”, even though the torque rating would probably be 400 lb.-ft at 2000 rpm versus 260 lb.-ft at 5000 rpm. And people (esp media) will still complain about lack of “V8”.
This takes us to “mild” hybridization. A reasonably powerful electric motor could add 80-90 lb.-ft at the low end. And even if it adds nothing at the top end, getting the car rated at something like 300 HP @ 6200 rpm and 320 lb.-ft at 2000 rpm could serve as a recipe to appreciate the best of both worlds. Besides, the gas mileage (and emissions) would improve. But, media is still going to be stuck at “lack of V8” (even though just a few will consider it if it were around as an option).
Both, diesel and gasoline-electric hybrid will add to the cost (I hate to say “diesel versus hybrid” since hybrids could use diesel engines as well). But, so will a V8.
But, IMO, the most promising aspect of hybrid technology could be its use as AWD system (and power “adder” at the same time). But, if Acura were to consider hybrid based AWD for RL, would they let go of SH-AWD? That will be interesting to see. We do know that Honda adapted ATTS the way it works in RL’s SH-AWD in 2001 Dual Note (“super sedan” using hybrid AWD).
For instance, Civic Hybrid is rated 66 mpg in UK (extra urban), which translates to 55 mpg (using std "gallons"), compared to 51 mpg that EPA estimate puts (for highway).
In that sense, 4.0l TDI may end up getting rated at about 27 mpg by EPA for highway. (4.2l gasoline V8 is rated 32 mpg in UK, translates to 27 mpg if you use std gallon instead of imperial, and EPA rates it at 24 mpg for highway).
The math for EPA highway estimate translates to 27 mpg for Audi 4.0/V8 TDI since the "extra urban" rating in UK is 36 mpg.
On a similar note, if Accord Hybrid does get rated 38 mpg (highway), and is sold in UK, it should get rated over there at 50 mpg (extra urban). And that is not too far off 52 mpg rating that the Accord Diesel gets (also extra urban).
Accord Hybrid and Accord Diesel would have similar low end torque numbers, but the hybrid would end up having 115 additional horses. And this would show the potential of hybrid technology better than any production hybrid has shown thus far.
Another reason why RL/Hybrid can be an intriguing possibility instead of going the typical "V8" (or diesel) route.
According Money, the overall mpg is 32 mpg. And, according to March 2004 issue of Car and Driver, the observed European combined is 28 mpg and the gasoline version is 22 mpg.
"The new NOx target is 0.05 gram per mile for the first 50,000 miles of a vehicle's life, which can rise to 0.07 gram at 120,000 miles; the particulate limit is just 0.01 gram per mile for the full 120,000 miles. The last year's limits were higher - 1.00 to 1.25 grams per mile of NOx and 0.08 to 0.10 gram per mile of particulates. These regulations are considerably more strict than Europe's most stringent Euro IV standard of 0.40 gram of NOx and .04 gram of particulates per mile for diesel cars (Europe sets slightly tougher emissions limits for gasoline engines)."
I wonder why.
If you want to look at it in a different way, diesels use turbo charger, hybrids use electric motor. That said, electric motors are sturdier and simpler than ICE engines to start with.
If there aren't a lot of mechanics familiar with how to fix those engines, the repair cost is going to be high, simple supply and demand.
Urban legend. There's a big misconception out there that AWD is only a winter benefit for those in the snow belt. Not true. Full-time (not so much on-demand AWD) is a year-round asset regardless of where you live. AWD is a big benefit in the rain, and with the new SH-AWD in the RL, appears to be a big plus in terms of handling too.
Having owned FWD, RWD, and now with two Subarus, I can assure you firsthand that AWD is a 365-day-a-year asset.
Bob
And a new Lexus GS for $8-10K less! Good luck.
Where did you get that information?
Plenty of races -- in warm places on dry pavement -- have proven the value of AWD beyond the "winter" advantage. Moreover, the last time I was in Florida, there were plenty of SUV's -- my assumption is that most of them see little off road time. Perhaps their owners wanted some of the advantages of AWD or 4WD despite the almost total lack of "winter."
Don't discount the RL simply because it is AWD, is my message.
Which would you all prefer?
And my dealer (I called him this afternoon) insists a demo will be available late August. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Which would you all prefer?
For that price you don't get a premium sound system, navigation system, or leather seats - all standard in the RL. If you don't need or want any of those things, go with the Lexus. If you do want those things, then you're in the RL price range and you might as well go a little bit more and get the RL with AWD.
Hard to tell until the *production* RL breaks cover. Right now we're just guessing.
Having said that, I've got to say I won't consider anything seriously unless it's AWD. So instead of paying $39K for a GS300, I'd pay $29K for a new '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5GT Limited turbo or $33K for a new '05 Subaru Outback 3.0 H6 LL Bean, both of which have taken a quantum leap upscale, are very luxurious, very powerful (both have 250hp engines), and come standard with AWD.
Or... if you're concerned about owning a turbo, and/or don't want a *station wagon,* and want a 6-cylinder engine, consider the 3.0R H6 Outback sedan at $31K.
http://www.subaru.com/servlet/showroom?model=OUTBACK&trim=30_- R_SEDAN&command=overview
Bob