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I have been asked many times by well-meaning friends and clients as to when I'll be "moving up" to an Benz, BMW, Porsche, etc. My replies have always been:
1) I had a Porsche and BMW during my 20s and 30s, THEN I GREW UP;
2) When I show up with a Benz, my clients may well think, "Damned that Karl! He's driving OUR money!"
OTOH, I have heard compliments on my choices of fiscally-prudent well-built cars that allegedly demonstrate my "common sense."
When the Legend coupe first hit the scene, one of the car mags ran a comparison of it with BMW, Mercedes, and Cadillac. The Mercedes managed to tie the Legend only because the editors invented a new category, CACHET, for the article. I don't recall ever seeing this "quality" used again in their comparison tests.
BTW, my BMW crashed and was in the body shop for 5-1/2 months - lack of parts (fender, grill, hood, bumper, etc.). My letters to the US distributor headquarters in NJ were unanswered and unacknowledged.
Think maybe Varmint wrote that one. Have to disagree a bit with that. Thing is, at the time of the Legend, there were darned few v8's out there at all. Guess I don't think back then it was for a lack of a v8. The LS debuted at the end of the Legend's run an it along with the S-class and 7 were the only foreign v8's I can think of. There were a ton of cars with 6's, some 5's and even 4's in the swede's cars. Most US cars were 6's too. As for the Legend's handling, back in it's day, it was pretty darn taut. have to say though, in '89 I ended up getting down to 2 cars and picked the Maxima SE with 5sp over the Legend based on the price/performance metrics of the time. (there was about a $5k delta favoring the SE and in it's day, that original SE suspension was mighty fine. The engine was no slouch and having all that plus a Bose for about 16K was not at all a bad deal.) both the SE and legend beat out all comers from volvo, audi, bmw and saab that I compared them to.
Octane for the RL: kind of late to be chiming in on this one but my old '96 rl ran better in all respects with 93 over 87 including acceleration and mileage. (Never did try '89.) Also noticed was the smoothness of the shifting. Someone mentioned about the retardation of the spark plug when using lower octane. Agreed. Further, it's actually the retardation of the plug that allows for smother shifts between gears and if one messes with the timing of the retardation, it may have an affect on the shifter smoothness. That is what I noticed and surmised with my rl.
My 2 cents for why we buy: Simply put, would say the rl buyer is probably a better listener than talker; less concerned with perception and more concerned with distinction; reflective rather than reflexive; and sits in the back of the room to observe rather than the front to be seen.
Actually, LS debuted sometime in the late 80s (1989?), and Q45 too. Legend continued thru 1995 before handing over the baton to 3.5RL.
And, for those who have been, with good reason, dissing the Audi due to its reliability ratings, check out the latest stuff pertaining to Audi.
Its all good.
Check it out where Mark? Did you (or others) post on this here on the RL board or the Audi board? Is there a web URL or a post number that you can share?
Thanks in advance.
Also: What can you tell us about the seat in the Audi? Is it tightly bolstered or can a 200 lb. man fit with reasonable comfort in it?
Yep, that was me earlier. It's probably true that the V8s were a bit less common than they are now, but that's because there were fewer luxury cars at the time. Cadillac had a 4.5 and a 5.0. MB had a 4.2, a 5.0, and a 5.6 on the market. Lincoln fitted a 5.0 V8 into half their cars. BMW was pretty skimpy on the big engines. Most were fitted with a V6, but they did offer a V12 around 1990.
Anyway, I don't think that the V6 in the Legend, while competent, was enough to lay claim to being sporty.
As for handling, the Legend held it's own. It was undoubtedly better than the current RL. But I've read several reviews of early models, which remark on problems with body roll. I was too young to have first-hand experience with the early Legends, but my readings lead me to believe that the car looked sporty (especially the coupe), but did not stand out for its performance.
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AUBURN HILLS – In the latest J.D. Power and Associates 2004 Customer Service Index (CSI) StudySM, Audi ranked as the leading German luxury car manufacturer.
Audi was tied for the largest index score improvement and was recognized for improved ratings for both maintenance and repair customers, particularly in the consideration of a customer’s time, the amount of time waiting to speak to a service advisor and the time it took to get the vehicle after service.
The study measures customer satisfaction among new-vehicle owners with the dealer service department during the first three years of vehicle ownership. This typically represents the majority of the vehicle warranty period. Overall satisfaction is based on six service categories: initiating service, service advisor, in-dealership experience, service delivery, service quality, and user-friendly service.
The 2004 CSI Study is based on responses from more than 97,000 new-vehicle owners and lessees.
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AUBURN HILLS – In its fourth annual ranking of the 100 most valuable global brands, Business Week and Interbrand named Audi to its prestigious list. This is Audi’s first appearance on the list.
"Clear and consistent branding have moved Audi to become a leading luxury auto brand, also in the increasingly important Chinese market. This completes their global footprint," commented Jan Lindemann, Global Managing Director of Brand Valuation for Interbrand.
A dollar value is calculated for each brand using a mix of publicly available data, projected profits, and variables like market leadership. The article along with the Global Brand Scorecard appears in the August 2 issue of Business Week.
No one knows for sure, but I expect a similarly equipped M35 AWD to MSRP for about the same as the RL. The M45 will probably be about $2000 more expensive, similarly equipped (without AWD).
2. When will it hit the showrooms for sale?
Expected March 2005.
3. How's the horsepower and handling?
340hp for the M45, 280+ for the M35 (probably more). Not many pre-production tests, but one review said that that the M is a much more solid handling car than the G35, and the G is no slouch.
4. How is Infiniti's reliability - lately?
Second only to Lexus, according to surveys.
5. Resale value -- still less than Acura?
The G and the FX have one of the best resale values in their class.
6. Any chance that they will tone down the "Jetson's" style dashboard control panel?
IMO, no.
7. Is this a worthy "adversary" of the RL, handling and performance wise, or is this car a plush ride in a svelte suit?
Remains to be seen, but IMO, it will give the RL a run for its money, especially if equipped with the active rear suspension (Sport models.)
I have to say that I love the looks, I love the features, and can't wait to test drive it. Assuming it has seats in the non-sport version that a big guy can sit in, this could be goodbye to Acura and hello to Infiniti!
I've had Infiniti/Nissan cars since '88 and have always enjoyed great reliability. I have a 98 I30t with 120K miles and it's been flawless...still drives/looks new so I'm not in the immediate market for a new car. I'm looking forward to stepping up the "fun" factor some while keeping the same high level of reliability and have my eyes on the new M car as well as the new RL from Acura.
I have to say with all the years of great service from my Nissan cars I do slant towards staying with that family...funny how that happens and that's what the companies count on. The RL does appeal as do Lexus products. Guess I'm a fan of Japanese vs. German/Euro as reliability is more important to me than fun but seems like the fun is getting more and more into the Japanese cars....
Will look for your road test review, thanks!
What has been your experience as regards negotiating your actual purchase price with Infiniti cars? Did you find the dealer willing (or eager) to give discounts and if so, how much?
Any sense of what we might expect to see (discount wise) in March 2005 when the new M hits the showroom, and, a bit later in April or May 2005?
Basically I stopped in one late afternoon and after a few minutes of the salesman trying to be a salesman (nice guy, just trying to do his job I guess) I asked for the sales manager. I walked into his office (this sales manager still works here as the manager 7 years later although the dealership is under new ownership) and within 3 minutes we agreed upon $800 over invoice since I was getting an appealing black on black combo.
I was pleased with the speed and forthrightness of this manager. I talk to him every so often when I'm getting my car serviced.
This dealership has undergone several changes including the ownership change and the G35. The G35 changed the dynamics of the dealership because their customer base doubled overnite and service slipped along with not being as customer friendly as the original ownership team.
Long reply to a question you may not have been asking re: my experience...but I think your answer comes down to 1) How popular the M car will be and 2) How friendly/straight shooting the individuals you will find at your local Infiniti dealers. Also I would hope that if I went to my guy, same sales manager I used in '97, I have a relationship with him I could leverage.
How much would I save over the guy coming in off the street? Probably in the hundreds, not too much but I guess it all counts. My guy knows I've taken my car to his dealership for every single maintenance, very regular schedules...don't miss a maintenance. This translates into good business for them over the long haul.
If this M car is anything like some of the reports I've read here that it handles better than the G and looks as good as you say it does Legendman, then I expect dealing might be tough initially.
Last point re: negotiating. See, for me I set a number based on dealer invoice. I understand they also make money on the reserve and can make more depending on volume #s per month etc. So they are actually making 2 to 3 points more than just the amount over their invoice. Once I know my number there won't be any dealing from my end, that's why my Infiniti purchase took about 3 minutes. I wasn't going to play games with the salesman. The manager knew I was about to leave unless he showed up, knew I was there to buy a car and not "just looking", knew I was fair, I knew he was fair and we figured it out quickly.
Does that mean more than a tilt toggle problem?
If you dig deep enough on the Infiniti site, you'll see that a comparably equipped M45
Base V6 AWD = $45,400.
Journey Package = $2750
Tech Package (requires Journey Pkg) = $4000
(The M45 includes climate control front seats, Intelligent Cruise Control, Lane Departure Warning that the RL probably won't have).
Total M45 price: $52,150
Also, those prices are just "feelers" to gauge public reaction.
Won't the RL have Intellicruise and Climate seats as well?
Bob
ksso
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I didn't care for the first Infiniti M45 based on the photos and liked it even less in-person. Let's hope they get it right this time.
OTOH, the 2005 RL is much more to my liking in both exterior and interior styling, as well as the mechanical improvements. And I like my '96 model, as bland as most people believe.
considering i'm in the minority of people who do like the old 5 series but also like the new 5 series and then also like the old and the new bmw 7 series, it may sound like a moronic expression...
ksso
Your conclusion sums it up perfectly... the car lacks elegance. If the rumors that the Q45 will be discontinued and the M45 will replace it as the flagship of the Infiniti line hold true, I doubt that it's going to make much additional headway against the German luxury juggernauts in its current form.
Admittedly, the new RL is hardly perfect. While the styling is more aggressive than the stolid design of the current generation (doesn't take much to do that...), it's still less than inspiring. I find it modestly attractive, but a bit more of the soul of the TL design would have been welcome. And while the interior is fairly elegant, it has a few warts... the center controls seem poorly integrated into the dash, and the wood trim on the dash is excessive and lacks subtlety. But regardless, I find that the new RL projects far more elegance than the M45. Just my opinion...
Yeah, I know what you mean. The Vigor was an "okay" car, but not a real market leader. The TL that replaced it was nothing special. The Integra was a great little sport coupe, but it didn't really fit in with the image of a luxury car maker. The RL was a competent vehicle, but it did not march to the same drummer as the rest of the industry.
But I think that Acura started to make its comeback with the 1999 TL. Most didn't take it seriously that first year, but in 2000 it began to make waves. I bought one in 2001. With the addition of the Type S model, that car took off. That was about the same time that they added the MDX. That vehicle was a huge success.
So, while I can completely understand that the Acura line may not have anything for you personally, I think it did find new life around the year 2000.
I think the RL may be a little too conservative, but it still has decent proportions. There's nothing offensive about the design. It has the same low key appeal as the last generation TL.
The M35/45 wears too much make-up. It has good, balanced proportions, but there are no lines in the sheetmetal to give the shape emphasis. It's kinf of a shapely ameoba. That fact by itself is no biggie, but then they tacked on those taillights in the back and an angry grill up front. The contrast is too much.
Great body. Offensive details.
I'll have to see them in person to make up my mind, but, based on the pics, I'd say the styling of the RL is going to last longer.
JW
Honda/Acura styling is inoffensive and conservative, but not something that evokes any strong emotion. That has been the reponse to the 2005 RL, as well.
So while I was there I looked at the 2004RL. Sat in the car, very nice. Right next to it was a TL. You know, interior room (certainly back seat room) was the same or at least very similar.
The RL is longer, wider on the outside but I didn't sense the TL gave up much on the interior. Gas mileage is of course better on the TL, 30 Highway vs. 27 I believe for the RL. City numbers also better.
Price difference on the sticker was $13K although the RL had a nav in it and the TL didn't, so that accounts for some of the difference.
I came away thinking why was the RL so much more. I asked the salesman, he said is was mostly a demographics issue as to why someone would go for the RL vs. the TL. The salesman was young, would be surprised if he was 30. He thought the TL was the much better value. I have to say the styling of the TL, more sporty, was more appealing to me. He could not substantively answer why the RL would cost so much more except that it appealed to the "50+" crowd as it's bigger.
If I was choosing today between the 2004RL and TL, TL is a slam dunk for me.
I didn't spend much time trying to reconcile the price difference, anyone care to share some thoughts?
By the way, my salesman is getting trained (Ride & Drive) on new RLs around Sep 18th & 19th. He estimated that RLs would be in showroom in mid-October. He told me there are 10 people on waiting list (on which I am #1). He called me for my choices of colors because they needed to put in initial orders.
This is a SF Bay Area large Acura dealer. Acura is targeting 1000 units per month (12,000 per year). Considering their 250 dealership around the country, that is about 4 unit sales per dealership per month. Well, there goes your two-month+ initial supply of RLs in your neighborhood. Just my rough calculation.
I guess auto body design is a little bit like ice cream. Some like vanilla, some like chocolate, and a few like strawberry. And some don't like ice cream at all. In other words, it's highly subjective.
I think that that the new M is a good looking car. Admittedly the front end is a tad overdone, but it's certainly a big improvement from the prior model year and is certainly no more offensive, in my mind, than the Camry-esque front end of the new RL. At least it is bold and has character. If it offends your senses it does so by its boldness, rather than Acura's wimpy, let's-morph-it-so-as-not-to-offend design. And the new M's tail and it's tailights look g-r-e-a-t to me. Good grief -- surely, no one here can honestly argue that they think that the new RL tail is attractive or inspirational! Well, can you?
I love the back end and I love the side profile of the new M. On the contrary boys, I do think that the 2006 M is indeed elegant.
I agree that the new M interior is a little gaudy, but if you look at the woodgrained interior version, and not the sport interior with the brushed aluminum, I think that it is certainly more elegant than the cheap interior styling we have seen pictured in the 2005 RL prototype. The wood grained M interior appears to me as much closer to the Lexus interior -- in particular the LS430. Not item for item mind you; just the overall feel of inviting luxury that it evokes.
I am in agreement with all of you who say that we must actually see the car(s) in person to make a final decision. I just wish that the new 2006 Infiniti M and the new 2006 Lexus GS were coming out this October, rather than in March of 2005.
And I think Acura has the right styling approach for that class of car. They've shown that they can break out of the conservative styling mold with the TL, and aggressive styling is both expected and accepted in that class. Less aggressive styling is the right approach for luxury sedans in the RL's class and above.
The M45 is attempting to appeal to the same crowd that loves the G35. Apparently it's been somewhat successful at doing so, assuming reports of the "love its" on Edmunds are accurate. However, the market for the M45 and the G35 is markedly different, and I have serious doubts that the M45's inelegant exterior and overwrought interior will appeal to the people who are actually in the market for a car in its class.
I guess time will tell...
I guess I'm a grandmotherly type too these days -- I've got grands in elementary school anyway! YES, the RL is a great choice for someone like that. I bought one of those '03s just recently. I also drive an Integra :-) that I just won't give up until IT gives up on me. But the RL is a very nice car for longer trips or for taking MY mom, who is in her 80s now, around the town. I'm obviously an Acura fan. I really TRIED to love a Toyota, but nothing that I drove really overshadowed the Acuras. I see lots of folks have problems with Acura dealership attitude; I wasn't super-impressed with the new car crew where I get my Integra serviced, but I like the service staff there, and I bought the RL at an Audi dealership that was very good to work with.
In fact, I can... perhaps not inspirational, but not unattractive to my eye. Like the rest of the car, I find that while the RL's rear styling is non-adventurous, it's simple, elegant and in tune with the styling of the rest of the car. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
As for the M45's rear, what you call bold, I call overstyled and tacky. There's a fine line between boldness and tastelessness, and the M's taillights have crossed that line big time, IMO. Not every car on the road has to blow you away with its overabundance of attitude, regardless of what Nissan and Infiniti would like you to think.
"I agree that the new M interior is a little gaudy, but if you look at the woodgrained interior version, and not the sport interior with the brushed aluminum, I think that it is certainly more elegant than the cheap interior styling we have seen pictured in the 2005 RL prototype."
While the RL's interior has a few flaws, I'd hardly classify it as cheap.
"The wood grained M interior appears to me as much closer to the Lexus interior -- in particular the LS430."
As I said in an earlier post, someone needs to remind Infiniti's interior stylists that brushed metal and wood are best used as accent materials, and that too much is just that, too much. IMO, the wood trimmed interior is just as tacky and garish as the brushed metal trim version. Unless you prefer your interior to evoke memories of the sides of a 1978 Country Squire. Way, way, way too much wood, just like the other has way, way, way too much brushed aluminum.
Again, just my opinion...
The reports of "love its" are actually more from other car forums. Same for "hate its" as well. Not many posts on the M on Edmunds in general.
"However, the market for the M45 and the G35 is markedly different, and I have serious doubts that the M45's inelegant exterior and overwrought interior will appeal to the people who are actually in the market for a car in its class."
On the other hand, the RL may be too mundane and indistinct for this class. This class isn't as conservative as the LS/7/S/A8 class, as people in the GS/5/E/A6 class are looking for a bit more pizzaz and sport. Only time will tell!
"Acura is targeting 1000 units per month (12,000 per year)."
That seems quite a low target. I guess it makes sense, since then they could say, "Look! We exceeded our expectations!" I don't think they'll have any trouble reaching 1000 per month.
On a different matter, I've seen a Chrysler 300C a few times now and I've been intrigued by it. Also just read in Car and Driver September a comparo including the Chrysler which destroyed the other two cars in that test. Historically I haven't been a fan of American cars produced since the 70s, but I guess there's no such thing as an American car anymore as evidenced by Motor Trend dropping it's Import of the Year. Just interesting to think how globalization of our economies has most directly affected the auto industry.
Another interesting piece in Car and Driver September re: a high up American in Toyota Motor Co. I think he's been there 30+ years and works in the US 2 weeks per month and in Japan the other 2 weeks...sounds grueling!
For the past July, here is the rough sales numbers
- M45: 300+
- RL 3.5: 300+
- GS 300/430: 2716 (~2000 for GS300)
Totally, 3300 among three Japanese brands. 1100 per brand on average.
Now, since all three will be updated from 10/2004 to 3/2005, Acura should be happy with 1000 units sales per month. It would be dog fight among M35, GS300 and RL. The market for $40K to $50K luxury cars simply isn't that big.
Well, that's just my simple calculation assuming German makers hold their ground against their Japanese competitors. And, lets not forget Cadillac is doing very well, and 300C is selling like hot cake.
Indeed they have. The last two RL model years have been moribund. I have frequented one Los Angeles area dealership where they will just about give the car away. The salesman told me point blank that they would sell the car for invoice, and that was his opening remark. They had cars sitting on the lot in excess of 9 months.
For me the issue with the current RL was not so much the exterior styling, it was a poor choice of exterior colors, and the cheapening of the interior, using plastic faux fake wood (that's fake x2). Moreover, not much had changed inside the car beyond the navi system. The window and door locking systems were the same as what was put into my Legend years before.
Mind you, it's still a fine car and an outstanding value. It just is rather bland. And although the 2005 RL redux is an improvement of sorts, for some it too is rather timid and bland. Anyway, that's my take.
The GS in its heyday (99/00) sold about 2500 per month.
In any case, I thought the idea was to take some of the pie from the 5 and the E.
I could see the RL/M/GS selling about 1000 to 1500 per month, each.
However, there is also competition from the A6 and STS.
The new RL should benefit from both. It will use the global midsize platform (shared with TL, TSX and Accord) and quite possibly will make use of the J35A (basic engine design shared between MDX, Pilot and Odyssey at the moment) dumping the old C35A. This also allows Acura to build upon everything that TL offers, and more.
The new RL, although shorter than the outgoing RL, is said to be the largest Honda/Acura on the inside with about 103 cu. ft cabin volume. To put this in perspective, Accord (with moon roof) measures about 98 cu. ft (102.7 cu. ft without moon roof). The current RL, I believe is 98 cu ft as well. So, the interior volume represents a 4-5 cu. ft gain. The current TL, I believe, measures at 97-98 cu. ft on the inside as well.
Honda is expected to make extensive use of lightweight material like magnesium alloy/aluminum alloy (to trim down the weight, especially to counter the added weight of SH-AWD). That, plus SH-AWD, more gadgetry, refinement and additional premium on top of everything that TL offers may account for additional $10K or so on the new RL. Navigation system is expected to be standard as well. So, for a very similar price tag as the current RL, Acura can afford to offer a lot more in the new RL.
When it comes to styling, I think there is a thin line subtly beautiful and overly styled. I’ve rarely seen anybody say bad things about a typical Mercedes or the old BMW 7-series styling. These cars had more slab sided detailing, yet they can be considered classically designed. The same were true of the Legend.
Acura’s approach with RL appears to be in that direction. Based on the pictures I have seen, there isn’t an outstanding styling element in the car, just a touch of “attack mode” in the fascia to conservative rear end complemented with a few lines and curves. That’s usually a safe approach, and not a bad idea. And the nice thing about it is that much of its styling elements, from the grill to the tail lamps can be traced back to the RL itself, as well as some other Acura.
On the inside (in the prototype), the contrast offered between darkish wood trim and brushed aluminum console was a little too high. It might look good with light colored wood. Other than that, the layout is once again typical Honda/Acura logical. Symmetry would be one way to define it.
Styling details aside, it would be interesting to see how these cars (RL, M, GS, A6, 530i, STS etc) stack up in terms of connecting the driver to the road, at the same time, isolating the passengers from it. Acura typically chooses to take middle approach, Lexus goes for complete isolation that I suspect would be a part of STS formula as well. Audi may be more Acura-like. BMW, of course, wants to be seen as a driving machine (but based on recent reviews they seem to favor isolation/numbness). The Infiniti may try to pursue BMW more than any other, but does that affect ride quality? We shall see. In G35, it does. If performance is the sole purpose of a car, that may not be an issue. People choosing Altima 3.5SE or G35 probably know it. It would be interesting to see how M35 would stack up. As for RL, I expect it to offer a balance, the Acura/Honda approach.
I’ve heard of 1250 units/month sales target in the first year (1K/month during the first six months and 1.5K/month over the next six). That would be similar to TSX sales projection and if there is a demand, the projection should go up (like it has been in case of TSX).
An important point to consider is that Acura RL will be targeting a very specific price, rather than a price range. There will be no stripped down base model to start with.
That is incorrect. RL comes with Burl Camphor Wood (and, like everything else, it is not an option).
Torque: 275 lb ft
Skid Pad: .975
0-60: 5.75 sec
Navi: Standard
Top Speed: 150 mph
Wheels: 17" standard (19" optional)
What's your take?