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Pontiac Bonneville

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Comments

  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    Pretty much what I would expect them to say. Still interested though. Personally I think this car should have been out a year ago. It took GM two years to bring the GXP to the market - way too long considering that all of the components pretty much existed. The 300C will most likely kill the GXP - price, performance, new platform and better materials.
  • bunky36bunky36 Member Posts: 94
    Csaba Csere of Car and Driver said several months ago that C&D definitely wants to do a review of the GXP. Should be anytime now. IMHO the 300C is butt-ugly. It looks like a cross between a tank, a truck, and a Checker Cab. The GXP by comparison is sleek and aerodynamic looking with its wedge shape. Admittedly looks mean a lot to me, but I think the GXP is going to be a hot performer, too.
  • montanafanmontanafan Member Posts: 945
    How is it two years from the November 4, 2002 announcement (that the car was going to be out in the first part of 2004) to today? Keep in mind that GM knew that no Bonnevilles would be produced for almost 5 months during 2003 and that the car would be changing plants requiring a slow ramp up of the base models before a variation could be built.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    two years from the original concept from the Chicago(?) auto show. Maybe I am being to critical.
  • montanafanmontanafan Member Posts: 945
    '02 Chicago Bonneville G/XP was still using the 3.8L Supercharged engine. It was '02 SEMA when the GXP V8 was first shown. So I will split the time with you. Still I believe the factory change and slow start up is as much of the time issue as anything with the engine.
      
    Also on the GXP, it looks like the latest rebate list at gm.com has $3,000 for all Bonnevilles (not just SE & SLE as before).
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    I agree.
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    And expect the magazines to praise the styling, chassis and the powerplant but lament the choice of driven wheels and deride the interior.

    I see a GXP as a definite option for me - a step up from where I am right now without losing anything. I have to admit that I'm also eyeing a CTS-V - the allure of that kind of power driving the correct wheels is hard to ignore.

    ice
  • bunky36bunky36 Member Posts: 94
    The CTS-V performance specs are pretty impressive to be sure, and while I don’t know yet if I like the angular design look Cadillac is developing all of its cars under, I like it more than I did when the CTS first appeared, so I guess it’s growing on me. But what is off-putting to me is that it is RWD and isn’t offering AWD (to my knowledge). If I had a RWD car with that kind of power it would put me right back where I was in my Trans Ams—great cars to tear around in when the weather was good, but in the Kansas winters my TA’s spent a lot of time in the garage because they were worthless on snow and ice—even with traction control—pretty much a joke. Does high power and RWD not concern you a little, iceman, up there in REAL snow and ice country? Whatever I have has to be my daily driver. I don’t have a “winter car.” That’s why I’m excited about the GXP—lots of performance goodies for a sedan, albeit not as hot as the CTS-V, but FWD so I can drive it all year around. And the looks of the GXP—in my mind it is pure beauty from any angle.
  • mlm4mlm4 Member Posts: 401
    I partially agree with ice, the major auto mags will try to compare the GXP with a BMW or something like that, and complain that GM didn't do enough to change the Bonneville. The interior is the same, except for the dressing. The sheet metal is the same, except the cladding is smoother. Still FWD. Remember that when the 2000 Bonnevilles came out, C&D ranked it eighth out of ten sedans in a comparo (which was won by the 300M, IIRC) and called it a boy racer's dream carn (Brock Yates). I doubt they will be impressed. I also expect some of the more mainstream newspaper writers will compliment the car with indifference.

    So is Chicago really a "hot bed" for Bonneville sales?

    Oh, and I also thought about the Cadillac. Performance looks more exciting, but I'm still warming to the styling. I still think the Bonnie is one of the sharpest-looking big sedans on the road!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Consumers' Most Wanted Vehicles for 2004 Survey is posted and ready for your input!
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    Bunky, I've been driving for 27 years now - 12 of which were on RWD cars. Of those, only my '92 Mazda 929 had ABS - and no traction control. I always used snow tires and have never gotten stuck or gotten into trouble. Never. Not once.

    The Bonnie sticks to the road like glue in the winter. FWD, traction control, snow-rated tires... it's great stuff. I do believe that RWD with stabilitrak and decent winter boots will do the trick. The issue with the CTS-V will really be if the gobs of torque are too much to not break free in slippery conditions - a lot would depend on how response the stabilitrack is.

    Anyway, I could live with a CTS-V but, like you, would prefer an AWD speciman.

    ice
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    I understand all the advantages of RWD, but I can't see myself benefiting from them in my driving on public roads. Yet, there are disadvantages that cannot be forgotten: heat from transmission, less space in the foot well fore and aft, heavier weight, etc.

    Leaving in the Sun belt, I'm fairly neutral towards both. But my brother from the snow belt has seen too many RWD not being able even to leave the parking lot, traction-control and all...
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    I hear you - perhaps it's not compelling enough as manufacturers get better at engineering FWD with decent cornering capability. Alas, the same front weight that gives FWD much of its slow speed grip is also less desirable from a road poise and "tossability" perspective. I agree that AWD is a great solution - but, even then, not without its disadvantages.

    I think tires make all the difference in winter traction - I always use "high end" snow tires and I rotate and replace them regularly. I'm constantly amazed at how many people don't worry at all about the quality of their tires. I always have a collapsible shovel, a pair of work gloves, and an old winter jacket in my trunk for those winter days when I have to give someone a push. Doesn't happen much anymore but, when it does, it invariably involves inappropriate tires, poor tread, or an inexperienced (read: young) driver.

    (well-named) ice
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    I just don't see myself tossing the car around corners. Especially because in Texas those corners are in the residential areas where the speed limit is at most 35MPH and where there usually are children playing and adults jogging.

    Just give me a fast car in straight lines and I'll have my needs met. ;-)
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    Quite agree. Twisties are a fact of life here but then again so is traffic. I don't need tremendous "tossability" - just enough that the car doesn't feel like it's going to toss me! I get a kick out guys who place a lot of credence in these slalom tests - sure, they indicate good suspension and steering dynamics but just when's the last time that you had to navigate cones on your drive to work?

    But RWD does have its acceleration advantages as well - especially for quick launches where the weight of the car tends to pitch toward the rear wheels. Again, perfect for those Texas country roads... ;-p
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    automobile had a short write up on the GXP in the back of the magazine. They said the cars handling was impressive and the Northstar was a hugh improvement over the SC 3800. They said RWD cars may be making a comeback, but this car reminded them of how good GM's FWD cars had become. I would take this car over an Acura TL anyday. The TL's interior is much better but the GXP is just a bigger, badder car that will match the TL auto in perfomance. Plus you gotta love those 18" rims.
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    A tough call. Edmunds lists this within dollars of one another.

    - The Acura has a better warranty, gets better mileage and has a 6 speed manual. All good things.
    - Power-wise, the GXP has the edge: similar peak ponies but at lower RPM; waaaay more torque and a lot more of it down low (peaks of 300 ft-lbs @ 4000 revs vs. 238 @ 5000).
    - The GXP also has a larger rear seat and trunk.
    - The Acura has the nicer interior.

    They have similar features but there are small differences. I can't pick a clear winner here - it'll depend on what you fancy. But the GXP lacks two features which the Acura possesses and which are currently highly desired by a good number of buyers: xenon headlights and NAV. And the TL will have a telescopic steering wheel in addition to tilt.

    I can only conclude that Pontiac needs to go a little farther to put it on top of the TL - which is perhaps its biggest competitor. You want power? buy the GXP. You want a car designed for 2004? buy the TL.

    I'll be looking at both.
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    I forgot to add (for what it's worth) that Edmunds calculates the "True Cost to Own" for the GXP at $50,796 over the 1st 5 years with the TL being $45,085. The entire difference between the two is attributed to what Edmunds projects as year 1 depreciation: $13.1k for the GXP and $7.6k for the TL. For years 2-5, Edmunds projects that the depreciation will be almost identical between the two cars.

    Their data is likely flawed: as the first year depreciation they use for the GXP (roughly 35%) is bang on what they attribute to the SE, the SLE, and the SSEi. But, in fairness, GM's done little to promote the Bonneville and make it a desireable car - either new or used - and that's undoubtedly hurt resale value. I've got to believe, though, that the restyled and up-powered GXP will be more desireable than that and its resale will hold better. If Pontiac addresses the interior, NAV, and xenon lights for 2005, I can only see further improvements in that regard.

    I somehow suspect that the depreciation is pegged to previous models.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    CAn someone explain to me why NAV is 'needed' for everyone?
    I can't imagine I would need to have it in a car.
    I know how to use maps and know where I'm going otherwise...
    I get the impression that some think it's necessary for everyone else to pay for in a model because they personally want the NAV for whatever. So I'm seriously asking someone to explain if I'm wrong in my impressions...

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    I don't think NAV is necessary for everyone but it is desired by many - especially the gadget-hungry. Pontiac doesn't even make it available on the Bonneville so when cars like the Acura TL come along and offer similar performance and creature comforts but with more recent technology, it reinforces the perspective that the Pontiac is a little behind the times. It's definitely a "keeping-up with the Jonses" issue IMHO - but that doesn't mean that it isn't important.
  • tpkentpken Member Posts: 1,108
    I just read the R&T review of the TL and see what you mean Ice about the new gadgetry - looks like fun. I think the front styling is great but don't care for the back much. Too bland.

    The GXP looks to me like a winner from any angle! I wonder if the rear seat has more headroom than last year's models equipped with leather seating. When they brought the seats out of the Aurora they didn't compensate for the lower roofline in the rear compartment of the Bonneville. I can't fit my teenage son back there in an 03.

    I agree on the NAV - could be fun but also distracting for driver and definitely unnecessary for a MAN who can read a map!
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    Of course the TL's front-end is nice, it's been lifted from the Bonneville!!!

    But in this category the consumers expect some "must-have", like the Xenon lights. The NAV is a big flop in the US, nobody orders them: no wonder, for $2000 one buys 100 US maps or 10 portable GPS receivers. ;-)
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    Up here, a GXP will cost $CAN 47k all in (excl. sales taxes). A comparably equipped TL (dynamic package - e.g. incl. Brembo brakes) will sticker at $46.7k. (Note: this TL package doesn't have NAV but it does have Xenons) Price is pretty much a wash.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    If you include rebates I'm sure the Bonneville will cost about the same as the TL. I don't really care about NAV and its no surprise that the Bonneville doesnt have it. GM would have to totally redesign the center stack to accomodate NAV on this car. It has onstar which will help you if you get lost. NAV is basically a gimmick that will entertain you for a few months and then fade from memory. The TL is a good looking car but the GXP looks better and will be far more rare. I have seen at least 50-75 '04 TLs since it came out. They are getting more common every day. They definitely need to do a comparison between the MAxima, TL and GXP. I would take the GXP over the Maxima as well. I do not like the front or rear of that car and it has torque steer.
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    No question that I'd be able to get a GXP at invoice AND rebates AND GM Visa dollars. That'd easily knock another $7k off the price of the GXP. For me, the comparison's a no-brainer but I'll look at the TL all the same. I'm also thinking of the CTS-V but, at this point, it's probably more daydreaming than anything else.

    ice
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    A question: my 2004 Bonneville brochure cites the GXP's "largest exhaust pipes in its category" (whatever that means). Does anybody have any information on the diameter?

    Also, here are some decent GXP links:

    A a great link to some gorgeous, large, and decent-quality pix of the GXP: Maximum-cars.com (the same site's link to the Acura TL here: Acura TL

    a short Bonneville pdf brochure (love those flangeless GXP wheels!): Bonneville brochure



    ice
  • fantascpfantascp Member Posts: 175
    Hi everyone,
    just left my Pontiac Dealership( Northwestern New Jersey) with my wifes 2003 Grand-Prix GT- (Routine Service ETC)- stopped
    by the showroom for a 2004 Bonneville Brochure- asked when could I do a test drive with the GXP- the GXP was not available yet, was told not to expect the car in until the end of April!
    I'm on the "PLEASE CALL ME WHEN THE CAR ARRIVES LIST!!!!"
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    One statistic / spec. that I had not seen before and caught my eye was the EPA city / highway estimate of 17 / 24.

    I guess the deeper (numerically higher) final drive is likely to blame, especially for the highway number. (The ’04 Caddy SLS is 18 / 26.)

    5- (or even 6-) speed trans would likely help here. I am still a bit surprised with the wide spread of ratios in that GM 4-speed automatic.

    I wonder how easy it will be to launch without smoking the front tires. (Traction control off.)

    - Ray
    Still expecting to drive one when they are available . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • bunky36bunky36 Member Posts: 94
    My dealer (Kansas) has had a black one on order for a local doctor for some time, he has the build info and VIN, and says the expected delivery date is next week. We'll see. Dealer will call me so I can go look (but can't drive it since it's a customer order). Interestingly the doctor ordered it without a sunroof. I can't imagine that, but to each his own.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    A dealer in Redford, MI has received a GXP. I'm hoping the dealer right down the street will get one soon. I really want to test drive one. My family drove a 2001 Bonneville SLE on a vacation a couple years ago and it was pretty nice. The upgrades to the GXP should make for a much improved vehicle.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    The dealer close to me received a black GXP stickered at $38.7k. I think that is pretty much loaded. Unfortunately it was already sold so no test drive for me. The car was all cleaned an shiny and looked sooo sweet. Hopefully they get another one in soon.
  • bunky36bunky36 Member Posts: 94
    Ice: The GXP dual/dual round chrome tips are 2.5 inches in diameter. I haven't seen them in person yet--that's just what it says in the Bonneville brochure I have.
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    Bunky, does the brochure refer to the 2.5" as the diameter of the tips - or of the pipes? Big difference...
  • bunky36bunky36 Member Posts: 94
    Agree--big difference. The 2.5 inches are the tips. I haven't seen anything in any of the literature that gives the size of the pipes. Guess we won't know that until somebody sees a GXP and does some measuring.
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    No more recommended check for the Bonneville. Perhaps this isn't news - the last time I bought their annual car issue was '02 and they recommended the Bonnie back then. Further, the '00-'03 Bonnevilles are now listed as "used cars to avoid"! Yikes!

    I note, btw, that CR hasn't actually tested a Bonnie for four years (Feb. 2000) - it was an SE - and they still use that summary in their '04 car issue.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm not making excuses for the Bonnie - it has a number of "issues" but you have to read this year's CR. For the MY 2000, it reports the following being negative: electrical (could this be LEDs dying?), suspension (could be the vibration that many sense at 70 mph), body/integrity (rattles?), pwr equipment (windows dying?), body hardware (?).

    My own sample of one contradicts these findings and is hardly statistically significant. Still, I wonder if the Bonneville owners who do respond to the CR survey are over-represented by those who have an axe to grind. I just find it interesting that a car that sells as poorly as the Bonneville (what, 25k a year?), still has enough '03 MY owners to meet CR's 100 response minimum to list a reliability history for that model year.

    And yet CR had insufficient responses from owners of even bigger sellers: Chrysler Concorde, Chrysler Sebring, Lincoln LS, Pontiac Sunfire, Mitsubishi Galant, Dodge Stratus, Dodge Intrepid, Olds Alero, Dodge Neon, Chevrolet Cavalier (all outsold the Bonnie last year - most three to four times as much and ten times as much in the case of the Cavalier!) for CR to post a rating.

    Perhaps just as interesting, CR was able to get sufficient responses from owners of low volume MY 2003 sellers like the Toyota Prius, Audi A6, Saab 9-5 and 9-3, Infiniti I-35, BMW 7 series, Jaguar S-Type, Lexus LS 430, and the Buick Regal (almost on par with the Bonneville in terms of sales last year) to post reliability histories for the 2003 MY for those cars.

    Understand, as well, how CR's ratings work: it only takes 9.3% of this small sample reporting a problem to get a black half-circle; 14.8% or more nets the car a full black circle. CR doesn't publish its sample size for individual cars.

    I don't want to dismiss the findings but I do find it all a little curious. However, since I have long viewed CR's survey as less-than-scientific, I find that I cannot rely on their conclusions. That's unfortunate given the effort they put into this entire affair.

    ice
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    And thanks for the clarification bunky.
  • fantascpfantascp Member Posts: 175
    Need some info- anyone have their vehicle repainted by a major chain org like MAACO instead of local auto-body shops etc and if so was the cost and work satisfactory and are you happy with the results? I'm thinking of having my car re-done, but in Bright White, the car is presently colored Dark Cherry.
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    I wouldn't recommend that drastic a colour change by any of the major chains.

    My one experience with Maaco is about 20 years old so likely doesn't count any more. But I've seen a few of their recent paint jobs and they don't get in the door and trunk sills, under the hood, etc. IMHO, this is absolutely essential for any colour change - and especially so for an abrupt one. Perhaps Maaco will do it at an extra charge and the jobs I've seen are because the owners weren't willing to shell out the bucks.

    OTOH, if you're going to stick with dark cherry, I'm sure anybody will do. My instincts, though, would still lead me to a local, quality shop with a good reputation. After all, it's really hard to recover a car from a botched job or poor quality paint. Expect to pay about $3-4k for the job - a little less if you stick with dark cherry.

    I suspect this isn't what you wanted to hear.
  • fantascpfantascp Member Posts: 175
    I did get a price of around $3000 to do it in White from my local shop- based on just what you said- its very labor intensive to go from one colour to a different one especially going to White. I know having MAACO or a chain do it is the CHEAP WAY out and you get what you pay for, but I'm still not sure if I want to spend the extra bucks on a 98SSE with 86,000 miles or invest in a newer car. The car needs some cosmetic work on it- a couple of dings/door dents etc- the hood has the typical chips in it up front from pebbles
    hitting it etc- but overall its a good strong running car with all the bells and whistles except the Supercharged engine and Perform ride/Touring Ride buttons.
    Thanks for the info.
  • mlm4mlm4 Member Posts: 401
    Wasn't the dark cherry paint special for the Bonneville's 40th anniversary?
  • fantascpfantascp Member Posts: 175
    Originally I thought so also but I found out from
    members on Bonneville Club.com that the 1997 40th Anniversary was not exclusive to Dark Cherry-It came in a variety of colors- Black, Silver etc-not just Dark Cherry.
    As a matter of fact, Prestige Motors in Upstate New York was selling a Silver 40th Anniversary SSE Edition a while ago.
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    Three large is indeed a lot to pay for a six y.o. car that's worth maybe a tad more double that. Up here, Maaco is what you do when you want to spruce it up to sell it - not if you want to keep it and certainly not if you're thinking of going to white. I just wouldn't recommend it - although it is a crap shoot (I have seen 1/2 decent Maaco jobs - not many, mind you).

    Another couple of options:

    1. Take what you would've spent on a decent paint job, add it to what you could get on your '98 and look for a decent '99 or '00 which is already white and in decent shape.

    2. Get the Maaco job but keep it the same colour (it is a nice colour!) - but don't let them skimp on the surface prep work and masking (those are their big weaknesses - them and that Scheib guy). If Maaco paint jobs turn out well initially, they usually don't look all that great beyond a year or two. So, plan to sell/trade it before then.

    My $0.02
  • fantascpfantascp Member Posts: 175
    Thanks again for the info- got time to decide which way i want to go with this.

    *check out the 1958 BLACK BONNEVILLE, with 9,697 miles on her, for sale on Ebay right now- its up to $32,200.00 and the RESERVE IS STILL NOT MET!!!) Beautiful pictures!!!
    IF ANYONE IS INTERESTED-YOU GOT 2DAYS, 2 HOURS TO BID!!!!!
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    That's one sweet '58 to be sure. I'd prefer mine in another colour but this one looks straight enough. I'm guessing that mileage is since a resto job but the description is silent on that issue. Interesting that the bids would go that high without a clarification that this is numbers matching and the tri-power was original with the car.

    Check out this one: '65 Bonneville CV. I'm mighty tempted as the '65 Bonnie is one of my faves. But "90% restored" 9 years and 20k miles ago means $$$ and Calif. is a long way for me to go kick tires...
  • fantascpfantascp Member Posts: 175
    Agree with you on this one- I also like the style of the 65/66 over earlier years.
    My all time favorite classic is the 59 CADDY!!!
    LOVE THOSE FINS!!!!!!!
    Owned a black 59 around 1974/1975- wish I still had the car now.
  • tjcwcostjcwcos Member Posts: 1
    Can someone tell me why I should buy a Pontiac Bonneville GXP for $36,000 when it doesn't have navigation as an option or Xenon head lights? Now I see there is a $3,000 cash back incentive and the car isn't even available yet in most of the country. I love the look of it, don't get me wrong, but there are numerous cars available that are better for less money.
  • theicemantheiceman Member Posts: 736
    I think we all agree that the GXP should have Nav available, Xenons standard and have upgraded switchgear but it does have that 4.6L Northstar, is good looking, comfortable and roomy, likely to be considerably more exclusive than many of its competitors, and a quite decent handling package.

    At the end of the day, Nav systems aren't all that used by most drivers (plus the Bonnie has an available OnStar service that will provide directions) and Xenons are nice-to-haves but the Bonnie's headlights are quite good. It's going to come down to where your priorities are - and, for some, a sporty, refined-looking V8-powered car is going to be attractive enough to overlook the shortcomings you mention.

    I've personally decided to hold off until the '05 model - in the hope that Pontiac decides to upgrade the Bonnie's interior. After all, if I'm going to change, I want something a little different.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    If Nav and Xenons are an absolute must then look elsewhere. I can't believe that a Nav system is worth an extra $2k, just my opinion. You could probably have a Xenon system put in as an aftermarket product? Not sure if one exists for the Bonneville.
    So like Ice said, the GXP does have the 4.6 Northstar, looks very sweet and is a pretty large and comfortable car. Most of the competition does not offer a V8. Onstar can be pretty cool. Exclusivity is a consideration since only about 4000 GXP's will be produced this year and I would imagine that number will remain about the same in subsequent model years.
    Incentives could be another factor as you mentioned. I believe you there is a $3000 rebate or you could chose 0% financing for 60 months.
    In the end you should go drive all of the cars you are considering and buy what suits your needs and likes best. There are many great vehicles in this price range and each one has their own unique personality. The GXP most likely has the edge in power and exterior styling. The interior is not as nice as many others, its a trade off.
    As far as the interior being updated for 05 I very much doubt that any upgrades will be seen. The Bonneville most likely will end production by the end of 2006.
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    One word (or two?): V8.

    No other car in its price range offers one.
  • jcz1jcz1 Member Posts: 36
    "No other car in its price range offers one."

       As a current Bonnie owner, it pains me to say that this statement is about to no longer be true. The 300C offers a Hemi with 340 HP and 390 torque, at $3K less ($32,000).
This discussion has been closed.