Jaguar S-Type

carnaught · April 2001

I have a 2000 S-type 4.0 Jag. and a '99 GS300....there's no question that the Jag. has been much more troublesome with endless trips to the dealer and the GS has been VERY reliable. My conclusion from this ownership experience is simple...I probably will buy more Lexus', probably will never buy another Jaguar!

akirby · April 2001

3.3 and 4.3 and a supercharger. I read it in at least a couple of different publications. I hope that means the LS can get the VVT heads on the 3.0 and 3.9.

wbreaux · April 2001

I work for a company which has a deal with Ford allowing employees to buy under the X Plan. I think there was some discussion a while back but I cannot find it. I understand this plan applies to Volvo, but does anyone know if it applies to Jag, and if so has anyone had any experience with it? I understand that for Fords at least the plan is under invoice.

akirby · April 2001

I don't think the X plan is below invoice - I think it's just above. You're thinking of A plan which is only available to employees and family members. X plan is just a decent no haggle price.

ourjag · April 2001

As akirby pointed out A-Plan is only for employees and their families. X-Plan for suppliers/vendors and their employees is at actual dealer invoice. Its a good deal because you need not haggle with the dealer over the new vehicle's price. Keep in mind that all rebates and/or special financing incentives still apply! Example: Sticker price $25,000.00 Dealer Invoice $22,000.00 theres a $1,000 rebate in effect, your price = $21,000.00 Also if you have a vehicle to trade you will still have to haggle with the salesman over the trade-in value! You make out great on and X-Plan purchase, if you are able to sell your trade-in yourself privately or through a public auction. If you were to be able to sell your vehicle privately. The total savings to you under an X-Plan purchase mostly likely be in the range of $1500-2000. I believe all Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda, Land Rover, Jaguar and Volvo cars and trucks qualify under X-Plan. Only one that does not qualify is Aston Martin SORRY!!!!

akirby · April 2001

Someone posted actual percentages a while back and X plan was just above invoice but I don't remember the exact number. Most vehicles can be purchased for between $0 and $500 above invoice unless they're high demand/short supply. And I'm not sure those would be available on the X plan anyway. I still think X plan is just a good price that you don't have to haggle over, but I don't think it's any cheaper than you could negotiate on your own. A plan is.

ourjag · April 2001

As I stated earlier if you're seeking to purchase or lease a 2001 Jaguar S-Type, you will save at least a minimum of $1,000-$1,500 on an X-plan purchase or lease. When it comes to Jaguar, Volvo or Land Rover the public will never get the deal you'll receive on X-plan. When it comes to Ford, Mazda or Lincoln/Mercury cars or trucks the savings are small or virtually non-existent over that of a retail public purchase or lease. On these domistic products you would realize savings of 0 up to $1,500 depending on make and/or model. But on Jaguar, Volvo or Land Rover the savings are real and quite attractive!

marsha7 · May 2001

and I was just about to buy three Aston Martins (one for driving, one for parts, and one for looks), but now that X-plan is not available for Aston, I will cancel the sale...do they think I am made of money???

:):)

jji7363 · May 2001

Does anyone know the release date of the new X-type? I've just seen 'summer' as the availability date. (Jag web site and jagtalk.com)

Since it is based on the S platform, is it fairly safe to assume that it will be about the same size as the S type or the Lincoln LS? Also, will the typical 'wait 6 months for a new model so the obvious bugs can be fixed' rule-of-thumb apply here since it is based on a current model?

ourjag · May 2001

Is based on the Ford Mondeo platform and is basically the same size as a Mondeo. It will be available at your Jaguar dealers sometime this June. I believe the formal introduction date is June 22nd. The X-Type will come available with a standard 2.5 liter engine 194 bhp and an optional 3.0 liter engine same as in the S-Type rated at 231 bhp. Manual or automatic transmission will be available with either engine. Your right about size in one area the interior of the X-Type is virtually the same size as the S-Type. The X-Type also sports a sightly larger trunk area than the S-Type. So next month hurry down to your Jaguar dealership and check out the all new for 2002 Jaguar X-Type. Its a whole lotta honey for the money!!!!

giowa · May 2001

Some posters here at Edmunds on the Lincoln LS thread were commenting on the recent sales figures. LS sales down and Jag S-type up. I've seen some newspaper and TV ads lately showing Jag is heavily pushing subsidized leases. Watching TV last night saw an S-type ad for $499 a month and about $1,500 down. Think for 3.0. Forget rest of terms. Might not be a bad time to lease an S-type, esp. as Jag likely won't be inclined to deal on X-type for a long while.

jaguar123 · May 2001

My mother rescently leased a 3.0 with power/memory for onlt 524 a month!!!!! when i compared it to others it is a really good value! i added up the down payment(3000),payments(534 times 36) and residual(21985) and that taxes and stuff and it was less then what the car costs! i dont see how they are making money off of this but it works for me!!!

akirby · June 2001

I just found out my company qualifies for the X-plan and I went to the Fordpartner.com web site. Here is the exerpt from the web page:

Here is how the program works:

You can take advantage of special discount prices on Ford, Lincoln, Mercury,
Mazda, Volvo and Land Rover.

Ford Super Duty F450-F750, Ford Thunderbird, Jaguar, Mazda MP3 and
Aston Martin vehicles are not covered by this program. Exclusions are
subject to change.

I assume this is the only X-plan out there. According to the examples given of actual invoices (of course they're a little to grainy to make out the details yourself) the X-plan price is right at dealer invoice, give or take a couple hundred dollars (FLM). FLM is 4% over the A-plan price. Volvo is 2% over A-plan. Land Rover is 4% over dealer invoice and Mazda is "just below" dealer invoice. It doesn't cover trade-ins - you're on your own. But dealer participation is voluntary. They don't have to sell to you at the X-plan price.

Still sounds like a good, no haggle price if you find a willing dealer.

mvargo1 · June 2001

Some versions of the X plan include non "R" Jaguars

mikekeenan · July 2001

Has anyone had trouble with rapid and uneven wear of the optional 235-50ZR 17 Pirelli P-Zero Asymetrico tires? I have 20K miles on them and all are worn on the outside couple of inches. There's no way these tires will last 50k miles. The car has had regular service inspections and rotation.
Also, has anyone had luck finding an adaptor for a non-dealer installed CD for the 2000 model (in glove box)?

akirby · July 2001

If it's a Ford stereo you can get the adapters at crutchfield or radiosandmore, or a good local stereo shop. They also sell the OEM spec changers.

As for Z rated tires lasting 50K, I wouldn't bet on it. I would guess 35K max unless you do a lot of straight highway cruising on smooth asphalt. But the uneven wear suggests an alignment problem. Have the alignment checked.

BTW - Michelin has come out with a 235/50VR17 Pilot HX MXM4 tire for the new T-bird that will also fit the LS and S-type. That's what I'll be putting on my LS when the Firehawks wear out, which looks like it will be somewhere around 25K. That's the price for performance. Could be worse: my neighbor's 540i eats a set of $1200 Dunlops every 12K. Ouch!

im_brentwood · July 2001

You got tread left at 20K? Nice work!

P-Zeroes are perhaps the most capable ultra-High performance tires on the market. As such, they tend to wear quickly. 30K is about as good as you're going to get.

Uneven wear on the edges of a tire, however, generally indicate misalignment. ANd feathering wear like that is generally caused by the "toe" setting being out. Toe does not generally cause a pull either, incorrect Camber generally causes a pull.

Hope this helps!

Bill

im_brentwood · July 2001

Come to think of it.. I've never done better than 15K or so out of P-Zeros onthe XJRs that I have had. Closer to 9K or so for the rears.. but then... I sorta tend to drive it very hard

marsha7 · July 2001

so that was you leaving that patch of smoke as you drove away from the senior citizen's "Forget Me Not Rest Home"...:):):)

im_brentwood · July 2001

Yes

) I had a lawyer in my sights

LOLOL

Bill

marsha7 · July 2001

having a lawyer in your sights is a good reason to floor it, in the hopes of outrunning the lawyer before they get to safe ground...but I do not believe that you will receive any public service awards, at least not this year...:):):)

Bob

icdchess · July 2001

I have the P-Zeroes as well. Almost 20,000 miles. Wearing even but thinning out. I have maybe another 5,000 miles to go. There has been substantial discussion about the S-Type tires on the Jagtalk.com board (http://www.Jagtalk.com).
Steve

lateralg · July 2001

Two serious questions for Jaguar S-Type owners, or potential owners:

1)Do you know the horsepower ratings of the S-Type and the Lincoln LS?

2)Would it concern you if they both had the same horsepower?

giowa · July 2001

How many Jag S-type owners know (or care) that the LS and S-type are corporate sisters? Essentially sharing much that is hidden by sheetmetal. Engines, transmission, suspension, steering gear, etc. Though built in different factors and with significant exterior and interior trim differences and options.

rea98d · July 2001

If you've got something good that works, why spend money developing another platform to do the same thing? Building the S and LS on the same platform has made Jags more dependable (just look at the SIII or early XJ40's), and more affordable. The car still has the drop dead gorgeous looks Jags are famous for, and no one has been complaining that their S-Type handles like a Sherman Tank instead of a Jaguar, so the only downside to having Ford parts under the hood is you loose the snob appeal (no offense intended). I figure I can live without snob appeal if it makes it easier to get one of those things in my driveway. There are other reasons to buy Jaguars, and platform sharing with the LS (or the Contour with the X-Type), only enhances that.

im_brentwood · July 2001

Yes,

They are as related as the Lexus RX300 and the Toyota Avalon.

HP is different, induction systems, engine management systems, cyliner head designs..etc.. are all different.

Suspensions are different, body structures, sheetmetal..etc.. all different.

About all they share are engine blocks and floorpan stampings.

Bill

jmccusker1 · July 2001

brought new 2001 "S."Type home 10 months ago with a noticeable vibration in the steering wheel at 55-70mph. Dealer (AC Imports, Palatine, IL) has spent last 10 months trying to fix problem to no avail. currently trying fourth set of tires (Pirrelli) after Bridge stones, but still unable to remove vibration. Bridge stone dealer maintains that Jag has three out of round rims and that replacing tires will not solve problem-Jag maintains rims are O.K., but all previous sets of tires were flawed!! My lawyer advises me that this should be my first and LAST JAG!! I agree, especially after reading about very same problems since delivery of first "S." Type in 2000.
Would appreciate notes from similar bares of bad news.

icdchess · July 2001

I have a 2000 S-Type with absolutely no vibration. The Jagtalk.com
message board has many references to the problem because other
owners have experienced it, however. Some
there have suggested that high speed balancing is the solution; others
that tire changing does the trick. You might wish to post your experience
there. I know there are some Jaguar dealer service people there as well
http://www.Jagtalk.com . It's free.

Steve

giowa · July 2001

No, they are about as alike as a Toyota Camry is to a Lexus ES300.

In your list you forgot to mention all the important things they do share. How about transmissions? Yeah, Jag kept the crummy J-gate, but Lincoln was smarter to give option of regular shift pattern or SST option.

Regardless of their similarities and differences, both are nice cars. I consider mine to be the smart money man's Jag S-type. But then I've got an MBA.

im_brentwood · July 2001

In your list you forgot to mention all the important things they do share. How about
transmissions? Yeah, Jag kept the crummy J-gate, but Lincoln was smarter to give
option of regular shift pattern or SST option.

OK, transmissions. Does this make a 1988 XJ6, 1988 Range Rover, 1988 735i and a 1988 420SEL the same car because they all used a ZF 4HP22? OK, what else?

Regardless of their similarities and differences, both are nice cars. I consider mine
to be the smart money man's Jag S-type. But then I've got an MBA.

Yes, the purchase price of the LS is lower. Total ownership costs? That depends from what I am currently seeing, LSs are doing not a LOT better than Continentals and Town cars in the resale dept. S-Types are still doing quite well...72% over 2 years so far.

It must be very nice to have an MBA, I am duly impressed. Since I did not finish college being an equity partner in 2 new car stores is about as good as I have done. It did take me 5 years after finishing my Junior year of college though.

Bill

giowa · July 2001

So do you want a complete listing of parts they share? Or what percentage they share based on weight? Or who designed the cars? Or the comparision of their basic architecture & structure (e.g., shared wheelbase)? I may just post some comments from automotive press on the S-type/LS similarities. There have been a number of comparison tests where the S-type and LS both participate simultaneously.

Drive the two and you'll notice the important similarities. Steering, ride, handling, balance feel, braking, etc. Have you ever driven an LS? If you do, drive the LS8 Sport. It is the sportiest LS (not counting the LS6 Sport manual).

Guess we'll likely have to agree to disagree. Both Jag and Lincoln are part of Ford's corporate empire. Ford USA is now importing Jag staff to bolster US operations.

If you focus on the things you can visually see (e.g., exterior sheet metal) you'll accentuate the differences. But if you focus on the things you sense while driving, you'll accentuate the similarities. And their overall measured performance results are similar, which is not to be unexpected since they share a common platform.

Did you inherit your equity partnership? Or buy out family member? Marry into money? Do you drive your S-type or have your driver do it for you? I'm picturing you enjoying your Grey/Gray Poupon mustard while sitting in back.

pluskin · July 2001

LS & S-Type part sharing:
I believe the official count is 40% commonality. Lots of underbody sheetmetal, powertrain components, and switchgear. So what? If you don't think that Jaguar has enough value added to justify the price tag, then don't buy one. Its a far cry from being a badge engineered car, and they did as much as they could given Jag's financial situation at the time.

"Ford USA is now importing Jag staff to bolster US operations."
Hmmm, that's a good one. I work at Jaguar, and I haven't seen anyone imported to Ford North America to bolster operations. Are you thinking of Nick Scheele, chairman of Ford Europe?

For someone who drives an LS, it seems strange to me that you are so down on the S-type, and rude to brentwoodvolvo. What's your deal?

im_brentwood · July 2001

I understand that you feel that your LS is comparable to a Jaguar. Each car has their own merits. There are basic components which are shared, like a huge number of cars these days simply due to manufacturing costs. There is over 40% component sharing between the RX300 and the Toyota Avalon. Does this give those two cars the same charachteristics or inherent value?

I am glad that you enjoy it. I drove an LS for the first time in San Francisco at the dealer preview. We own an S-Type inthe family and it has been totally flawless and I love the car.

That being said, I do not see how one entering a Jaguar S-Type topic and saying how a Lincoln, which is built to a lower price, is a better car and expecting a positive response is a logical way to have a conversation. Again, we will apparently agree to disagree.

Did you inherit your equity partnership?

Nope.

Or buy out family member?

Nada.

Marry into money?

Not at all.

Do you drive your S-type or have your driver do it for you? I'm picturing you
enjoying your Grey/Gray Poupon mustard while sitting in back.

Nope. If I didnt want to drive I'd get a Town Car or some other such motorized sofa. This week its' an M5, who knows what it'll be next week. In the garage are 2 modern Jags tho.

Bill

scottc8 · July 2001

as I understand it, is: Would Jaguar S-Type V8 owners feel slighted in any way if the more powerful engine were shared with the Lincoln LS, a "lesser" car. Many LS owners, myself included, would love the extra power, and think that Ford has reserved it for Jaguar as one way to maintain "separation" between the two cars.

im_brentwood · July 2001

My point exactly.

Also, a large part of why the AJ-V8 ismoew powerful thanthe LS's V8 is simple...

Cost. A hugechunk of the power output advantage can betraced down to a Variable Valve timing system. Not sure what it costs, but when the cars came out for the heck of it I looked up some replacement parts costs... It seems to be a VERY expensive system!

That being said, the LS8 does quite well.

Bill

akirby · July 2001

Brentwoodvolvo - could you give us an idea of the cost that you saw? Is it hundreds or thousands? One of the contentions of the LS crowd is that VVT is a relatively low cost item to add to the LS so cost wouldn't be an issue. Now there are many different types of VVT and I'm sure there are cheap/simple versions and more expensive versions. I'm guessing the S-type is fairly advanced and therefore costlier.

But this may be a moot point since Jag is getting 3.3 and 4.3 engines soon. This would clear the way for Lincoln to use the VVT 3.0 and 4.0 to boost hp while maintaining the Jag edge. I still think SVT could come out with a Supercharged version of the V8 and still be politically correct.

mvargo1 · July 2001

A supercharges version already exsists in the Jag, however you will also want to grab the mercedes transmission that the R's use.

I think Ford should consider a supercharged LS. Think about it a 400HP LS with a 6-speed trans., like they are experimenting with for the XKR in England.

The contiuous VVT used on the 4.0L V8 is being offered on the X-type 2.5 and 3.0. So it can be done on a $30,000 car. However, Jag is trying to maintain a seperation between the LS and S-Type.

im_brentwood · July 2001

IIRC... I think it was something like $3K or so in dealer cost for the parts critical to it. Plus heads are more expensive I believe..etc...

I was told by a Lady at Jaguar (Anne Stone, Mike you must know her ) said that it added like $3,000 total in costs to the car (probably included develoment..etc..)

Thats a big chunk.

Bill

akirby · July 2001

Thanks for the info.

giowa · July 2001

Given that cars costing far less than the S-type and LS are using VVT (which is becoming more and more common each model year), I doubt that it is that costly to manufacture over a long production run.

Nor would looking at replacement parts cost total be a decent approximation of what it costs to manufacture on a per-unit basis over the production run. If you were to price out the total replacement parts to fully build your Jag S-type or my LS8 Sport, the quoted total would be in the area of two to three times the entire cost of the vehicle when originally sold.

The insurance industry loves to show those annual surveys in which the total replacement part cost of a lowly sedan like a Ford Taurus can be $40K or $50K and up. And that is just for the parts, nothing for the labor.

im_brentwood · July 2001

There are, as I would assume you are aware of, quite a few other reasons why an S-Type is more expensive.

And, as I had mentioned, the costs of the parts were a solid $3K+, I then mentioned that the VVT system added $3K or so in costs to the car, much of it I amsure includes manufacturing and tooling, and development costs..etc..

Bill

scottc8 · July 2001

The thing to do, if possible, is get prices from both Lincoln and Jaguar parts departments for Engine, Assy., Complete. I'm not in the car business, but have worked in manufacturing all my life, and $3k per copy ADDITIONAL cost just doesn't sound right.

But nobody's answered the question. If it's fear of sounding petty, I'll go first. If Ford were to come out with a new Taurus based on a similar but cheaper platform (DEW98 "lite") and put the 3.9 V8 in it, I would feel like my LS had been somehow diminished, lost it's "special-ness". So, V8 owners, what about it? Can we borrow your engine without diminishing the prestige of Jaguar?

stanny1 · July 2001

Hi Jag Guys! I am impressed with this forum's technical knowledge. Bill, especially, because I have bought parts from Brentwood Volvo in the past. I have owned Volvos since 1989. My first was a 740GLE wagon with the super but short lived 16 valver, which I guess was too expensive for Volvo to justify. In 1996, I bought a new 960 Wagon with the Porsche designed inline-six, which is the wife's car and has only 58k on the clock. I like the smooth six but it doesn't seem to have the personality of the 16.
My own ride is a 2000 LS Manual, which had a lot of help from the Jaguar boys in its development (Luk clutch, dual mass flywheel, hydraulic slave cylinder, Getrag tranny).
Does anyone know if the S-type 3.0 is available in Europe with a Manual?

im_brentwood · July 2001

Ahh, I kept the name but havent worked there in a looong time!

Outstanding store tho. I actually have my own place now, which is.. uhh... interesting

Yes, you can get a 3.0 S-Type with a 5-speed in Europe. I've driven one and I liked it a lot.

Bill

lumin · August 2001

I leased a Jaguar 2001 S-Type 3.0. Within the first 500 miles, the car broke down twice. The power train control module and the automatic transmission had to be replaced. I wonder how did Jaguar get good rating from J.D. Power? I should have trusted the good old Consumer Report that gave the S-Type a black mark. Any suggestions?

leadfoot4 · August 2001

To any of you Jaguar owners who may check in on the Lincoln LS board, you may have noticed that we are facing a problem with the rear window mechanisims.
Have any of you experienced this problem with your S-Types ?

im_brentwood · August 2001

Nope.

The S is still a substantially different car..

Bill

leadfoot4 · August 2001

Thanks for the feedback !!

pat · August 2001

I'm sorry folks, but your Membership Agreement forbids using Town Hall to sell or buy things.

Thanks for your understanding.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

akirby · August 2001

Jaguar S-Type

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