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Cadillac DeVille

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Comments

  • amkdevileamkdevile Member Posts: 19
    I have a standard 2005 Deville and the car does not have a sensor. I don't think any of the
    2005's had this. I know it's on the 2006 DTS.
  • dale1922dale1922 Member Posts: 3
    The owner's manual for my 2005 Deville says to change the seat cushion filter at 25,000 miles. I cannot find any other reference to the seat cushion filter in the manual. Where is it? How do you change it (assuming it's not simple)?
  • luigiluigi Member Posts: 1
    I am the second owner of a 1979 Cadillac Coupe Deville Phaeton D'elegance. This is a very rare car. The original owner ordered the cadillac with the phaeton package (a cloth/canvas fake convertible looking top) and the d'elegance package (leather seats w/a type of velour padding). The front seats are 50/50 and it has shag carpeting. The car is light blue interior, light blue exterior, and a dark blue ragtop. This woman took very very good care of this car. She kept it garaged and serviced it only at cadillac. From a 1 to 10 scale, this car was a 9.5. There were a couple of spots that needed to be fixed but it was very minor.

    Recently, the car was demolished by a person who thought he knew how to drive. What I need to do now is find the "fair market value" of my car because my insurance said that if they can't find anything on it, they'll just go by blue book value. Blue book value is only $3500.00 which I know my car is worth more than that. I have searched the internet and called everywhere I can think of and can not find any information. The problem I am having is, it was rare for the 1979 Cadillac Coupe Deville to have both of these packages at that time. I was told that it was a fake because it was never made with both, but I called the Cadillac dealer where it was purchased and from what they say it is original. They just can't give me any more information on it.

    Does anyone have any information on this? If you can help, I would greatly appreciate it. You can email me at dcross572@verizon.net

    Attached are a few pictures of the car before and after. I'm not sure if they'll work, so if any one is interested in seeing them, email me and I will send them to you.

    Thank you in advance for your time and help.

    Luigi

    image

    image

    image

    image
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    I really can't help you much. But I do know that for at least the last 10 years or so, all the 'fake convertible' roofs are not a standard Cadillac option. These are 'after market' items, put on a car after they arrive at the dealer.

    I don't know if on your 1979 Cadillac it was a stock item.

    I think you should 'google' for LaSalle/Cadillac online sites. These people on there have interest in older cars and could give you more guidance. I'm not even sure I've spelled LaSalle correctly. But, off to google you should go.
  • acegoalie30acegoalie30 Member Posts: 2
    i have a 2002 caddilac deville which i bought used i now have 100,000 miles on it so i did a tune up on it myself new fuel filter,plugs,and even o2 sensors. i also run mobile one full synthetic oil. ive noticed on the highway ive reached 24.5 mpg which is good but if the car sits and its cold out but mostly noticed in cold weather it drops concideriably down to 14.5 or 15.0 i do understand when its cold u would see more fuel dump but seems like its massive loss i was hoping maybe i would lose some mpg but not much.no lights or check engine things have came on i take really good care of my stuff i even poped in a fram air hog which has been nice i can tell its worked beter than K@N but is there somethin iam missing or is this normal iam in the north east snow belt area so .maybe its software issue but i wuld love anyone who could add some tips maybe or if this is just normal thanks !
  • acegoalie30acegoalie30 Member Posts: 2
    Has anyone felt pulling to right side mostly on there deville with traction control is this normal?
  • classicbuffclassicbuff Member Posts: 18
    Did anyone figure out what the starting problem is? I've got the same thing going on with my 01 Seville. Twice a week, I'll turn the key, and nothing!! A few minutes later, turn the key, and no problem! Dealer put in a new ingition switch, ($500.00) and no improvement. Help!
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    Does this happen after the vehicle has been driven for a while and good and warmed up? If so it could be a starter motor and/or solenoid issue. Often when the engine cools enough the starter/solenoid will work okay. If so that may be pricey also since the starter I believe is under the intake on the Northstars. Good luck
  • driver62driver62 Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2001 Deville. I have had five window regulators to break. I believe this is a defect in workmanship. General Motors has replaced four but refused to do anything else. I have asked them since 2003 to check this part because I believe a defect is in the regulator. The last regulator I purchased and installed myself, I found that there is a plastic part that is causing the problem. I am getting rid of all my GM products. I will never purchase another Cadillac. VIN # 1G6KD54Y21U254381.
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    I am sorry you are having problems with your 2001 Deville. Perhaps a different dealer could help you with your problem. I believe most window regulators are made outside of the US now and that may or may not have a bearing on this problem. If you check the forums for other brands you may find that GM isn't the only one with quality/durability issues. I hope you will visit a different dealer and or try contacting your regional GM Cadillac rep. to discuss this if you haven't already. GM needs all the good, repeat customers it can have and it would be a shame to drive something different because of one bad experience. Good luck.
  • bremertongbremertong Member Posts: 436
    I own a 2004 Deville and have not had the problem you mention. I certainly sympathize with you in your frustration
    in that in the few minor problems I have had with my 2004 I found it hard to get timely solutions. I suspect that many car companies are like this which is of course not fair or ethical to the customer. If you do buy another brand please
    post here as I always keep an open mind as to how to find the best product for money spent. Many thanks for sharing this issue with us and I hope you will eventually succeed in getting the matter resolved. If your really frustrated try writing a letter to the President of the Cadillac division or for that matter the President of General Motors. I have heard of people getting solid results with this approach. If you do write be sure to send by certified mail, return receipt requested, think that will greatly increase your chances of a timely and helpful response. Please keep us informed and best wishes for a successful outcome.
  • millstreammillstream Member Posts: 2
    I bought a 2003 deville about 6 months ago. I have the dual climate control for passengers and the driver. The fan in the rear of the car works fine. The fan in the front of the car seems to work whenever it wants. It might work fine for a couple of weeks and then just quit. When I switch modes(defrost, vent, floor)it sounds like they are switching but still no air comes out. Any information would be appreciated.
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    Hi, I think you provided me with a list of online dealers who discount GM factory backed extended warranties in 05, unfortunately I have since lost the contact information. If you still have the list available I would appreciate having it again. thanks in advance.
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    o4........... http://www.gmoutlet.com

    Let me warn you Caddy GMPP plans are PRICEY !!!!
    Been checking on one for my 03 Deville w/41k miles
    Around $2500 bucks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The price for my 04 Chevy 2500 4x4 truck (same time
    and miles).............$800 bucks !!!!!!!

    But in my experience (my 90 and 96 Caddies bought new
    and traded with 100k plus miles) I would of wasted my
    money!!!!!!!!!

    Now with the trucks........GMPP would of taken a beating!!
    But to be fair I heavy tow and snowplow as well as beat the snot out of them.
    But yet again I don't hesitate to pound on that screamin'
    Northstar either !
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    Thanks for the help. If we put a lot of miles on in a hurry the extended warranty probably isn't worth it, but we don't put that many miles on each year and time has a way of causing problems even with fairly low miles and now one transmission replacement would repay the ins. cost. With all the electronics on the new ones, it is really cheap peace of mind. I will try not to lose the contact info. this time.
  • vicgoovicgoo Member Posts: 11
    I have a 1989 deville with service eng soon lite on,sets code E40 power steering sensor.I changed the sensor for leaking but the light still comes on at freeway speeds only.When i slow down to a stop and turn the wheel it goes out.I did the switch tests and passed test 78-p/s sw.If i drive the car in traffic it will not come on.Any advice?
  • blur2blur2 Member Posts: 2
    well this may sound stupid but i have worked on tons of cars and my Haynes book says the under hood fuse panel is either on the fender or the firewall and i know i'm not blind cause i had my wife check too and we can find the dang panel theres a bunch of wires comming from the firewall in a wire sheathing about 1 1/2 inches thick i followed it around and nothing it splits off to everything under the hood and goes to the battery i haven't seen any car like this?
  • blur2blur2 Member Posts: 2
    may sound a bit odd but your pump may be wearing out cause at higher engine speeds there is more pressure and with a pump just starting to wear out it'll show signs at the higher engine speeds cause of higher pressures and as it gets worse will affect the lower speeds. they do sell kits to replace the seals in the p/s pump so might try that way over full replacement generally cheaper.
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    Ask over at http://www.caddyinfo.com

    Thats where the Caddy gurus are !
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    Our 2005 Deville has the service air bag light on for the second time in about two months. What is the usual cause and remedy for this problem? Is this a common issue with the 2005's? thanks
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    They must be busy over at caddyinfo, I tried to register yesterday and still haven't receive my conf so I can ask a question over there. :(
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    Okay so today the service air bag light isn't on. It was supposedly a module when we took it in the last time. Anyone have any insight? thanks
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    04............If you go back over to caddyinfo.com
    do a search for the procedure to do a code reading.
    It involves pushing 2 buttons on your heater/ac
    controller in a certain sequence and the codes (if any)
    will be displayed on your DIC................

    This will tell you which code and what to look for.

    If you post over there Scotty or one of the Caddy wrench
    heads can possibly help ya !

    BTW: Your 86 Caddy may have another fuse center in the trunk. May be under the back window like my 03 as well
    as under the hood and under the dash..............
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    You have a 2 year old car. Unless you have a ton of miles on it (and I think a Caddy warranty covers up to 50,000 miles), why aren't you letting a dealer solve this problem under warranty?????
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    I have had it back once for the service air bag message probably two months ago, they said they replaced the module under warranty. I just wondered if this was a chronic problem for the 2005 model year and if so was there an underlying cause? Seems like the air bag system shouldn't need to be serviced this often unless..... they really couldn't identify the problem the first time and either threw a module at it hoping to fix it or the message went away without leaving a code (the service guy told me yesterday that was possible) and they couldn't get it to replicate so they could troubleshoot it properly? I registered at caddyinfo but so far haven't received the conf email so I can't post or do an auto search yet. thanks
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    My 03 DeVille has used 1 gallon of antifreeze in a month.
    But not really sweating it because its still under the new car warranty. I didn't notice any leaks, exaust smoke, or
    interior window fogging. I figured a bad head gasket from
    some of the horror stories I note at other Caddy forums.

    Local Caddy dealer was quite helpful and had it in and out in 1 day. The cause of the coolant/antifreeze loss was a
    waterpump seal (not the pump). This the first and only issue with this car in under 4 years and 45k miles............. :shades:
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The water pump leaking is the most likely cause. If you had let it go long enough, the pump might have been damaged too. My 2002 is still on the original water pump bearings/seal. The coolant is still full since the transmission work was done. I now have a bit under 60,000 miles. I am thinking about getting a new car, but need to talk to dealer about that.

    Someone I know with an older (1999) DeVille had not noticed the water pump failing, and so when the engine got hot, that was the problem. He had it towed in after the engine got hot. After that the coolant level gradually dropped, and coolant was added. Then a several months later it needed more.... The head gasket had failed, probably due to the engine getting hot, but may also have been faulty anyway. The coolant leak had go on long enough so the engine was total loss.
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    I figured I would talk turkey with the salesguy just
    in case............

    They appraised my 03 Deville 45k miles base w/ bose, roof, bun warmers,chromies at a generous $10,000 trade !!!!!

    OUCH!!!!!!!! But I figured the lowball since I note 06
    DTS ex rentals w/25k miles are fetching $24k at another
    Caddy dealer..........

    Heck...I am getting $21,500 trade for my 04 Chevy 2500
    x-cab 4x4 20k miles on the purchase of a new 07 one.
    The truck msrp $33k new..the caddy $47k
    I paid far less with my GM employee deal. But the
    difference in which one held its value better is nothing new to me.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    My local dealer gave me $11,000+ today for my 2002 Seville. They did not have what I wanted in stock, but were able to trade with a remote dealer (~$500 to ship). The shipping cost was subtracted from my trade in, so they may have given me $11,700 for it.
  • bremertongbremertong Member Posts: 436
    Always enjoy your posts. as you may remember I own a 2004 Deville now with 37,000 miles on it. Base model with no extras except a 12 disk CD stacker in the trunk. A local dealer has a new 2006 DTS and has offered to do a trade giving me $17,000 in trade and $ 21,500 out the door. While tempted, the essentials in both these cars are similar and am not sure spending an additional $ 21,500 just to update two model years for a new 2006. The new car does have a sun roof and in dash 6 disk CD stacker. I asked why the car was still on their lot and a new 2006. Response was that it just never sold. Would enjoy knowing your opinion, many thanks.
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    A 'new' 2006 for $21,500 plus your car valued at $17,000? Is this the deal?

    $48,500 for a car that would be 2 years old when you get it off the lot?

    $48,500 for a 2006 when you can find tons of rental/lease returns with 18,000 miles for $20,000 and even less?

    Why, why, why would you want to do this?
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    I have been trading for a two year old program car for a couple of years now and receiving a fairly good deal (I think). I think you might be better off trading for a low mileage year or two old car than paying the $21,000.00 difference for the almost two year old new one. If you work with the dealer a bit or maybe try another dealer to try. Watch for their sales or another dealer's and take the paper with you. There should be a lot of 2006 program cars coming off lease and maybe even some 2007's coming off lease soon too. Good luck.
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    Hi, I have enjoyed the savings on two year old rental/lease return cars for a couple of years now, but haven't been able to find any low mileage 2006's (if that is what you were saying) this year yet for anything near $20,000. Could you give me a couple of dealer's names that are offering DTS's with low mileage in the low to middle $20's? My usual dealer hasn't had anything this year so far that meets my needs. Thanks in advance.
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    In my neck of the woods Syracuse NY 04 CTS are just under
    $20k, 05 Deville $19,995, 06 DTS (base)$24,xxx @ at Crest
    Caddy. 06 DTS sez loaded out $28k 22k miles @ Stafford
    auto group Auburn NY. 05 DHS $19,995 Wilber-Duck GM dealer
    Oneida NY............

    Thats all the big Caddies in todays paper:
    http://www.syracuse.com
  • bremertongbremertong Member Posts: 436
    The actual total, the trade at $17,000 and the cash of $21,500 would come out to a total of $38,500. The car is a 2006 but is new and according to the dealership just never sold. I agree with the idea of finding either a lease return or fleet car with low miles in that if certified it
    would carry in addition to the original warranty an added warranty under the certified program. I am on the west coast where prices are for some reason a little higher than for Cadillac on the east coast. There are more used Cadillacs available in the east and at lower prices.
  • bremertongbremertong Member Posts: 436
    The actual total, the trade at $17,000 and the cash of $21,500 would come out to a total of $38,500. The car is a 2006 but is new and according to the dealership just never sold. I agree with the idea of finding either a lease return or fleet car with low miles in that if certified it
    would carry in addition to the original warranty an added warranty under the certified program. I am on the west coast where prices are for some reason a little higher than for Cadillac on the east coast. There are more used Cadillacs available in the east and at lower prices.
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    Keystone Chevrolet in Sand Spring, Ok (near Tulsa) a few months ago had several 'base' 2006 DTS (Deville)'s. We drove by because my wife wants another Cadillac. I was scared to death to offer $19,500 for one, because I know I would have bought a car. These cars had 18,000 to 24,000 miles and sure looked like rental vehicles. White, blue, silver colors, base [isn't that a Level I] DTS's.

    Since this wasn't a Caddy dealer, you couldn't have gotten a certified warranty. I would think Caddy dealers out there are going with a certified warranty for one like these for about $22,000.

    And, yes, $17,000 plus 21,500 is $38,500, not $48,500. Sometimes I can't add correctly.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The DTS has 4 trim levels. The base level was called Luxury I in 2006 I think, but for 2007 the Luxury level I is one level up from base. The top level is the Performance package. The 2007's come in base, Lux I and II, with Performance at the top. The Performance package is really a quasi-sport sedan trim.
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    Those are some decent prices, I wish our local dealers were that reasonable. I like keeping a fairly new, under warranty Deville. Thanks for the reply. It will give us a baseline when we do start talking to our dealer for a trade.
  • bremertongbremertong Member Posts: 436
    I did a national search for used 2006 DTS on both Auto Trader and Cars.Com, Could not find anything close to the price you refer to in your post. Closest was around $ 29,000
    for cars with around 28,000 miles. It may be that the prices you saw were only being offered at the dealership and not posted on the internet. I would of course be interested in a 2006 Deville at the price range you mentioned. If you are able to find anything like this perhaps you could post name and location of dealership so if any of the forum members are interested they could follow up. Many thanks for the post in that it indicates that there are bargains out there if one shops around.
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    Keystone Chevy in Sand Springs, Oklahoma, back in the winter. Had several of them. Probably bought an entire transport truck load of them at some auction where rental company and GM finance was dumping a load of 18 month old cars. All of the cars manufactor date was May 2005, but they were 2006 models. My guess, they had about $15,000 in each of them.

    If it had been a Cadillac dealer, and he would have done a Cadillac certification for around $23,000 or so, I would have probably bought one, parked it in the driveway (Ridgeline and Corvette inside) and told to wife to drive it for 4 years or so (until certification warranty expired) and then dumped it.

    Unwarrantied Northstars scare me to death. I fear for the blown headgasket or '$40 part buried $2,000 deep in the transmission' problems.
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    That's the beauty of the Caddy's five year 50,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty, no fears on a used one that still qualifies. A 2006 with low miles still has three years (depending on the exact in service date) and some miles left on the warranty (with really low miles it could be almost as good as most other vehicles new warranty). And you hopefully won't need it anyway. Then in a couple of years you can find another low mileage two year old Caddy and trade again. At those prices, if they were average miles, I might have bought two, one for my wife and one for my daughter. The ones I am seeing here are around $29,000. to $30,000. for a 2006 with 30,000 miles or so. Not a bad price, but still a lot of money for a two year old car. :)
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    I wouldn't worry about a N-star powered late model
    Caddy. My 90 non N-star went 125k troublefree miles
    from new. My 96 N-star Deville rolled up 100k and
    the only issue was those GM only electric front struts
    that cost $2500 bucks so that one went bye bye for a
    new 02 Deville!
    But "the boss" wanted a sunroof....UGH! and I didn't want
    to go thru another add on hole (from ASC) that my 90
    had not to mention leak issues...............
    The 02 went bye bye for the 03 with a factory hole !
    You know I sat in that car for at least 50 car washes
    looking for leaks before I signed the papers !
    I was afraid of the paint washing off the car........

    Anyhoo I know the N-star is a complicated engine but in
    my experience (except for the water pump seal in my 03)
    I wouldn't sweat owning it for 5 years or more even
    after warranty !

    Why pay that BIG cash for a "certified" car?
    I would buy a current year used and get a GM extended
    warranty when nearing the 4/50k mfr.warranty end period.
    You can save some BIG $$$$$$ over buying new.........
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    Obviously I mistated the number of years in this post, should have been four years and 50,000 miles. And a GM extended warranty is probably a good option, the only thing is, I keep getting confusing information when I try to pin GM down on when their extended warranties start and how many years they actually add. I believe they start when you buy them, but I have also been told that if you buy a five year warranty, you are actually only extending the factory warranty by one year. It is hard to imagine that you couldn't buy an extended warranty up front and have it start whenever you want it to, by paying the appropriate pro rated amount (you know, if you want it to start when the original one runs out, you would pay more because it will have either 50,000 miles or be 4 years old when the warranty kicks in). My dealer has a 2007 with 14,000 miles and fully optioned for 41,999 or 42,999 certified, he hasn't gotten back to me for a trade difference on our 2005 with 28,000 miles. I am sure it will be too much. :(
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    If you are buying the GM extended warranty, then what you are actually doing is extending the original warranty. So, a 7 year warranty would be 3 more years beyond the original 4 year warranty. The Cadillac Certified used warranty of 6 years/100,000 miles is 6 years from the start of the original factory warranty or 2 years beyond the end of the original 4 year warranty. The extended warranty is ususally cheaper to buy in the first year than at the end of the original warranty period.
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    Yes, I don't think the dealerships are that clear when they explain the warranties to the people or maybe it just gets confusing with all the numbers and etc. In other words, really a seven year extended warranty is really a three year extended warranty (since the car has a four year warranty and you are paying for three additional years) and the six year extended warranty is really a two year extended warranty for the same reason. When it is advertised as a seven year extended warranty, a lot of people assume your are adding seven years onto the orignal factory four. I have spoken with several people who checked into extended factory warranties and they all have had that misconception and I myself was very confused about this issue after speaking with my local dealer, who by the way pushes an aftermarket warranty company instead of the GMPP, which I am sure is because they make more money on them. I even had someone from a dealer that sells GMPP call me to try and sell me an extended warranty on our 2004 Deville and the salesman didn't realize that the warranty started on the day that you buy it. Thanks for the clarification. :)
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    It was my understanding with a GMPP x-warranty that it
    started at the date and mileage WHEN PURCHASED !

    When I priced one thru Black GM dealer in Pa.
    http://www.warrantyoutlet.com that was
    the deal. Thats why I always shopped for a GMPP near
    the end of the new car warranty. It is true that the
    price of the warranty increases as the car ages.
    Examples of a class 4 (Deville) $0 deduct GMPP:
    New or less than 12 months old/12k miles--- 3/45k $530.
    used with 0- 24k miles 3/36k $ 915.
    used with 24,001 to 36k miles 3/36k $1,565.

    Some warranty companies coverage starts are different.
    But are you gonna gamble your $$$ on a company that
    might not be there or worry about coverage denile or
    exclusion? Some dealers won't deal with many
    brand x warranty companies.
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    I agree the GMPP is the way to go if you can. Unfortunately if your vehicle is already out of original factory warranty and hasn't been extended with a GMPP then you can't get one from GM. A few of my friends and I got burned with an aftermarket warranty a few years ago that went belly up, quit paying claims and was still selling online advertising a high rating. I guess it is still a question of when does the warranty really start? In this thread we now have two different statements by different people, both of whom seem to be really sure what they believe and I have heard both versions so I don't know what to believe. I do know my wife bought a GM extended warranty from a local dealer and when she went in for service they insisted the extended warranty started from the in service date. However when we pressed them about it, they extended her warranty by the amount of time and miles that she thought she had purchased when she bought the extended warranty. I don't worry much about the engine or trans anymore, it is all the other items like computer modules and other electronics that scares me.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    While it may be true that the dealer makes more money on aftermarket warranties, I think that the aftermarket warranties may also be somewhat less expensive. It is also true that the aftermarket warranties may be available on out of warranty used cars, so for the dealer, pushing one particular warranty is easier.

    Waiting till the end of the factory warranty seems like a good thing to do, but if the extended warranty is 3 times more expensive, then buying while the car is new is best. I have a new SRX, and while the dealer's finance guy was pushing a third party warranty, I said that I wanted to think about extending the factory warranty. At this point in time I think that I will see about a 7 year/100,000 mile extention (really a three year/50,000 mile extention).
  • 04cad04cad Member Posts: 131
    I think a lot of the perceived savings by buying the warranty early is the perception that, hey I am getting a seven year 100,000 mile warranty for XXXX dollars versus a three year 50,000 mile warranty for almost the same amount. Since the first four years or 50,000 miles is included in the vehicle purchase price, either way you are only purchasing a three year 50,000 mile warranty(depending on what you believe). If you are definitely going to keep it over four years and 50,000 miles, buying the extended warranty up front is a safe way to make sure you don't go out of warranty because you didn't realize the time or mileage has elapsed. We try to trade every year or two to keep the depreciation low and avoid the cost of the extended warranty and/or repairs. If we could trade as well as we do with our Silverado ext. cab it would be and easy trade, but for some reason the Caddy is always a harder trade to come out on money wise.
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