BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

silverprincess · November 2001

those p/n's I posted earlier are from the BMP Design catalog.

here's the link to Hella's with p/n's:

http://www.hellana.com/maineng/lev1b/lev2bb/lev3bbc/bulbs.htm

brave1heart · November 2001

From what I know, the rating (Z, W, V, etc.) corresponds to a top speed that the tire can withstand continuously. There may be much more that goes into that rating, I am not sure. So the rating alone does not tell you if the tire is for snow or summer. Generally, snow tires are not made to withstand very high speed, so it's rare you'd see a Z-rated snow tire. I think the M+S label on the tire is the indicator that the tire might be designed for snow driving. From what I've read, though, all that M+S means is that at least 25% of the tire is grooves as opposed to performance tires which tend to have fewer grooves for a larger contact patch and better traction. The best way for you to be sure about a tire may be to see their buyer ratings on the Tirerack.

Are you totally up to speed now? If you're not, I think Dave would be more than happy to help you (wink-wink).

shipo · November 2001

Don't forget to use your Arnold accent. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

ccotenj · November 2001

even cheaper here...

no opinion on these... i'm having difficulty understanding the concept of "longer range, but not as bright"? couldn't find any description of that on their website...

-Chris

genie1 · November 2001

shipo: you lost me

brave: Yes, I'm sure Dave would be happy to help me (wink, wink), but something tells me it'll cost me dearly.

dave330i · November 2001

come back from lunch and find 14 new posts.

genie1: brave is right about the ratings. It's about top speed, not weather, but due to the nature of tires, Z or Y rated all season are rare. Tirerack has very good page which goes into detail.

brave1heart: you're just too manly for my tastes. Even your user name is so masculine. I hope we can still be friends.

shipo: I think I can do Tom Arnold. Does that count?

silverprincess · November 2001

shipo · November 2001

Tom got as many yuks as THE Arnold in "True Lies", so use whatever accent that works.

Best Regards,
Shipo

dave330i · November 2001

"Dave would be happy to help me (wink, wink), but something tells me it'll cost me dearly.

"

Now what makes you say such a thing? I've been good, most of the time.

shipo · November 2001

All of that was a long way of saying that the 330i turns its wheels 7% more times around for any given number of engine revolutions when compared to a 325i. Assuming similar tire diameters, the 330i should move 7% further down the road for every revolution of the engine.

Imagine that you are on a bicycle that has gears, the higher the gear, the harder it is to pedal, however, the further you go.

Best Regards,
Shipo

allano · November 2001

Sorry to jump in without understanding what you wanted to do. Do you currently have HID lamps? If not, I beleive you will have to buy the ballast and starter modules also (2nd item on the left). HIDs require 1000 or so volts to operate, not the 12volts in our cars.

ccotenj · November 2001

i think what silver is looking at is just replacement lamps, not hid's... you are right, hid's require a full retro, which is why they cost so much from the dealer (or from anywhere else for that matter)... i believe i've seen a hella retrofit kit for around 1400...

imo, the bulbs silver is looking at won't be any better or worse than standard replacements... hid's, otoh, really DO work better... but again, it comes with a price...

-Chris

allano · November 2001

Was thinking about Hella's claim that their bulb is less bright but the driver can see farther. That could be true if the bulb emits light in a color band that is more sensitive to the human eye. A 15W florescent (bluish tint) bulb is pretty much equivalent to a 60W incandescent (yellow/red) to the human eye for this reason.
Having said that, I also don't think the manufacturer's claim has enough merit to be noticeable under normal driving conditions.

brave1heart · November 2001

I was able to follow your gearing comparison explanation. I also think that I am beginning to understand what you're saying about the impact of gearing over HP at the wheels and how it would impact the results. In the simplest case scenario, if you shorten the gearing on an otherwise identical car, it would show a higher HP at the wheels, right? So for a meaningful test, it would seem that the computer would need to know about the car's gearing. Always learning from the Master...

I did not understand the "good old 80/20" rule...I always thought that a car with a 10% power-to-weight ratio advantage would be 10% faster, assuming the gearing and all other factors are identical. I don't see how adding 80% power would result in only 20% more acceleration, assuming the power-to-weight ratio goes up by 80% as well. Is this because of other factors like aerodynamics, drag, etc.?

brave1heart · November 2001

Of course it will cost you dearly. I thought he already mentioned that he had an SLK in mind as a starting bid...Seems like a (wink-wink)situation, though...I mean, win-win situation

)

allano · November 2001

Wicked-nice (a Boston thing) summary in post 10494 about the need for snow tires under different circumstances. I might add that some super-sticky, cold-weather snow tires are known to be squirmy on dry pavement so all-season tires have a place when roads are snow-covered only 20% of the time.

silverprincess · November 2001

genie1 · November 2001

The SLK was for me.

I do come with a dowry of gold, a refrigerator, car (see, I'm on topic), house down payment and a full set of pots and pans.

Any takers?

dave330i · November 2001

Didn't I already make first claim? I can always use some more pots and pans.

ccotenj · November 2001

y'know, i shoulda thought of that... thanks for clarifying...

i agree... the claim is kinda along the claims for hp increases with mods...

-Chris

genie1 · November 2001

Yes, you get first rights of refusal, but I have to hedge my bets.

Who knows, you may take one look at the car and run away screaming

Let me sweeten the pot...
My dad'll throw in three goats and a camel.

brave1heart · November 2001

A nice toaster is blatantly amiss from your dowry... I think Dave might be OK with that, though.

Is that the two-humped camels or the single hump? 'Cuz I'm hearing the two-humped camels are selling pretty well this year.

genie1 · November 2001

This kind of camel:

http://www.arab.net/camels/

BTW: Anyone ever watched a camel race?

dave330i · November 2001

always joked about getting my friend a 4 slotted toaster as a wedding gift. One can do more with a toaster oven.

genie1: is the camel a champion racer?

"Anyone ever watched a camel race?"

In person or on TV?

dave330i · November 2001

I also noticed the lack of car seat covers as well.

brave1heart · November 2001

Do camels come in 6-cyl or just the base 4?

genie1 · November 2001

Yes, racing camels can cost as much as Arabian horses. I think they go as fast as 12mph.

The really sad thing is that in the Middle East they use very young SE Asian children as jockeys.

In person or on TV?

Well, either.

dave330i · November 2001

Seen it on TV. They're pretty high up there, aren't they? Much higher than horses. Haven't travelled around the world as much as you. I do have a friend who visited Egypt couple of times. People kept asking her male friend, how much to buy her.

genie1 · November 2001

Its a precarious ride at best.

Your friend must have been blonde.

Moving around as much as I do, one gets to know a bizarre amalgamation of facts and minutiae.

dave330i · November 2001

Yup. She's blonde. I think the biggest offer was 5 heads of cattle, bunch of goats, and a dog (while she was on safari).

I've moved around a lot, but just in the same general area.

genie1 · November 2001

My moving around consisted of over 11 cities in 5 countries as well as extensive travel in several others.

Lucky for me I enjoy seeing new places and trying out new food. I loved it but I am glad to finally have a place to call home.

dave330i · November 2001

been to a lot of different airports. Does that count?

I'd love to travel more, but that annoying thing called work. New food is always fun. Goal is to try out the 4 lbs. steak they serve in TX.

Don't quite have a home yet.

genie1 · November 2001

I lost count of airports back in 93.

The nice thing about Toronto is that one is always driving distance from almost any kind of ethnic food one desires: sushi, pho, curry, falafel, dim sum or moule frites. You name it, I'm sure you can get it here.

Not to jinx myself or anything, but most of my travelling will be vacations from now on.

The Caribbean in February sounds about right.

dave330i · November 2001

Are you the Iron Chef fan? Someone on this board was, but can't remember who. Anyone seen the ads for Iron Chef USA hosted by William Shatner? The Horror!!!

mschukar · November 2001

If you have the X, the standard all season tires will get you through just about anything with the exception of the deepest snow

Why is it that people believe they don't need winter tires when they have AWD? Sure, AWD will get you going better than 2WD, but what happens if you have to stop or maneuver in an emergency? The person with AWD will probably be driving faster because of the confidence gained from having traction while accelerating. I believe you're safer with 2WD and winter tires than with AWD and all season tires. Of course, AWD and winter tires would be best.

Why spend $1700 to go faster in the snow, but not spend $500 to stop and maneuver better?

-Murray

streetracer · November 2001

You have to factor in traction and aerodynamic drag. The amount of HP to achieve a paticular level of acceleration or top speed, does not increasingly proportionately because the increase in drag is disproportionate.

You also have a limited amount of grip from you tires. You as a result just can't keep adding low end torque, or for that matter increase torque beyond a certain level at any point in the powerband. You need to extend the powerband so you use the maximum wheel torque the tires can handle for a longer time.

The result is rather than going from 200HP to 210HP at 5250RPM you may need to 231HP at 5775RPM. You will have the same increase in torque but at a higher rpm, meaning more horsepower.

The drive train usually becomes heavier too as you increase power, either as a result of displacement or in terms of heavy dutier trans and axle to handle it. The increase in weight will result in you needing even more power, but may actually let you wheels handle more torque depending on center of gravity and weight transfer.

You also might be generating horsepower through tuning that actually reduces the torque in the low end, i.e. based on your cam profiles if you don't have true "stepless" variable valve timing and lift. You will now need even more highend power to compensate, need to pull even longer because you aren't pulling as hard early on.

I am assuming your gearing is staying the same, which makes sense once your ratio's are already yielding the maximum wheel torque the tires can handle. The exception is the last example where you may be able to use a higher gear, because of the reduction in low-end torque.

The bottom line is it is game of diminishing returns, to go a certain amount faster requires more and more work, and that work becomes harder and harder to do.

brave1heart · November 2001

<<< Of course, AWD and winter tires would be best.>>> mmmm, not true. For snow and especially ice, studded tires would be even better than snow tires. We keep arguing about this on the board and forget that people live in different climates, have different driving needs, different level of experience driving in snow, etc. One thing common about the 3-series is that they all are sporty and have pretty low ground clearance (5" only on the 325i SP). Obviously, getting through DEEP snow with that kind of clearance is not advisable, even if you have AWD and snow tires. Most people don't drive their Bimmers in very heavy snow. I'd tend to agree with the poster saying that AWD and all-seasons will help get through but the deepest snow. Sure, RWD and snow tires might be just as good, I don't know. To me personally, the key thing about snow is not getting stuck. Braking and handling in snow is obviously very important but where I live I do not drive in snow more than 10-15 days a year tops and even on those days, it'd be 3-4 inches of snow tops. I live in the city, have no driveway, and all the mandatory driving that I do is on well-maintained roads. I definitely do not want snows on my car because that gives me better performance on snow but worse performance on dry roads, which is most of what I do during the winter anyhow. All-seasons would be a perfect compromise for my winter driving needs. The key thing I'm trying to say is that there is no perfect answer to how much traction everyone needs during the winter. However, it's safe to say that snow traction, performance, and comfort in snow driving is achieved at the expense of dry traction, performance, and comfort.

dave330i · November 2001

since you have all-season, planning on getting a dedicated pair for track?

brave1heart · November 2001

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT ADVISE YOU TO DO THIS

Now, while I stated that all-seasons would be best for my winter driving needs, I have the summer tires on my 325i SP and am planning on keeping those for the winter and see how it goes.

As far as tracking in the Spring, I am not planning on getting a dedicated set of tires. For me, it would be too much hassle and expense to do that. I get the competitive racing adrenaline from kart racing... to me, tracking will be mostly an opportunity to improve my driving skills and race against my own best time. Gaining a few seconds and beating other cars does not seem to justify getting a dedicated set of tires. At least that's my current line of thinking. I am very competitive by nature, though, and once I get past the initial thrills of tracking, I may well decide that I need to try and kick everyone else's beep and get slicks, I don't know. Buy what you need when you are really sure you'll need it, I guess.

dave330i · November 2001

winter in SF is pretty mild. ;-) For some reason, I thought you swapped your Z rated with all-season.

cunning4 · November 2001

I have just ordered a 2002 325xi. Several options have been on my mind. Any ideas:

1) Armrest (do I need this for a manual shift or leave it out. I did not get the premium package but might install one myself)

2) Floor Mats. Rubber or Carpet. BMW Brand or other.

3) Is there a cheaper way to install a cell phone in this car vs the expensive dealer phone?

4) How long did it take for a special order 3 series to arrive?

Thanks in advance for your time. I cannot wait to drive my 325xi when it arrives in December. Sean in Boston.

allano · November 2001

I have reframed from commenting about messages concerning AWD but I'm beginning to think that peoples' expectations are based on SUV marketing, not common sense.
My expectations and the reason I bought AWD is to be able to go . I want to go in the wet-snow grease and ice we get North of Boston, not to go fast nor to go in deep snow. I'm tired of not being able to get up the hill just outside our house, of not getting out of the parking lot at work, of not being able to steer when I pull through snow (FWD), of not being able to start on a hill after someone, not used to driving in snow, stops in front of me. I don't expect to stop quicker, I don't expect to turn better, I just want to be able to go.
I also think people are missing another advantage of AWD on dry pavement. With 36% of the torque applied to the front wheels and 64% applied to the back, the car has a balance of neutral steering under power that I have not been able to upset. Sure, I'm not going to win any drag races with the added weight but let me get to the first high-speed turn and we'll see who gets out faster.
I am really looking forward to the first snow so I can comment on BMW's AWD with some authority. The comment someone made about getting front tires to grip after an initial slide by applying power makes my mouth water. Maybe I'll be able to get the tail to swing out and then power into the turn. I can't wait to re-learn how to go in snow!

mschukar · November 2001

Well stated, but I can't help think that winter tires with your AWD would improve all the situations you stated. We bought a set of Blizzaks for my wife's Volvo (FWD) and it goes great in the snow. Blizzaks on a Xi would be an incredible snowmobile.

There are a few days a year I would like to have AWD, but I would certainly want a set of good tires to stop all that going :-)

-Murray

blackren · November 2001

I have a 325xi with premium pak and wood. Get the premium pak., because HK is so much better than the base stereo in Canada. The Canadian version has only 6 speakers vs American 10, so I would imagine HK would be a better upgrade in Canada. Yeah, as for the xi, it would be useful in Toronto area, as it has 5 months of snow period. Since my school's parking lot is outdoor, it's really easy to get stuck in snow which can be a hassle.

shipo · November 2001

Brave,

When I posted earlier today about the 80/20 rule, I had no basis of fact for posting it, it was more of a gut guess as to how things would work. So when I read your post, I figured that I better research this issue and then post my findings, even if that meant that I had to eat a little crow. ;-) With the research complete, I admit having some fun doing it and hope you will enjoy the results.

For the purpose of this discussion, I decided to compare extreme examples of cars in the Standing Quarter Mile, a 2001 BMW 330i and a custom dragster named BME Top Fuel Dragster, built in 1998 and raced in 1999. And the results are:

2001 BMW 330i
3.0 Liter 6 Cylinder (Normally Aspirated)
HP: 225 @ 5900 rpms
Wgt: 3,285 lbs.
Power to weight: 14.6 lbs per HP
Quarter Mile: 14.8 seconds (C&D Dec-2000)

1999 BME Top Fuel Dragster
8.5 Liter 8 Cylinder Hemi (Supercharged)
HP: 6000 @ 8200 rpms
Wgt: 2,150 lbs.
Power to weight: 0.3583 lbs per HP
Quarter Mile: 4.68 seconds (NHRA Winter Finals Feb-1999)

The BME Top Fuel Dragster has 4075% more power per pound than the BMW 330i, however, it is only 316% faster in the Standing Quarter Mile. So, could it be that the 80/20 rule is actually too optimistic when it comes to improving acceleration times?

Best Regards,
Shipo

Dov · November 2001

The '02 3 series has the arm-rest as standard. It is not an option (at least in Canada).
The dealer will often throw in floor mats.
The dealer told me that my special order 325X (I ordered it on Wed.) will come in by the end of December to the middle of Jan.

ccotenj · November 2001

save your breath... i tried very hard to convince people of what you are saying... hopefully, when they ding (hopefully not worse) their trophy, they'll come back repentant...

-Chris

ccotenj · November 2001

incorrect.

drag IS proportional. it just happens to be a squared function, rather than one to one.

-Chris

burrsr · November 2001

If you're lurking out there, I need some help. Our Z3 was hit-and-run in the middle of the night in front of our house (no note or anything, of course) and is pretty messed up around the rear driver's side area. I remember you having also had some "bad luck" with your 330, and you being in Cincinnati. Can you recommend an auto body shop that may specialize in European cars or BMWs? I thought you had said your 330 was as good as new after your rear-ending incident, so any input is much appreciated. You can respond to me directly at burr@one.net if you wish. Any input from others is welcomed as well.

brave1heart · November 2001

Thanks for doing this fun research.

I want this 0.3583 lbs per HP for my next car!!!

Chris, I will make sure that it has snow tires ;o)

BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

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