BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

brave1heart · May 2001

I think we all had that discussion a couple of weeks ago or so and we all (incl. C&D) agreed that winter tires help more in ice/snow than an AWD system?!? Even if you wanted to stay with the same setup year-round, why sacrifice performance 95% of the time (95% x 365 days = 347 a year, or assuming 18 days of snow/ice) for the 20 inches of total snow and ice that you will get?!? Even with the added AWD curb weight, an AWD may be OK if it transferred torque from side to side like the Quattro but from what I've read, the X system only transfers torque back and forth. The only disadvantage of RWD over AWD is accelerating in snow/ice. It still brakes better (it is lighter) on ANY surface with equivalent tires. So RWD accelerates and handles better 95% of the time and brakes better ALL the time. I would never pay money to buy acceleration for 5% of the time while giving up on acceleration, handling ,and braking 95% of the time. And if I'm not comfortable driving in snow/ice, I'd get snow tires, it's that simple really.

brave1heart · May 2001

I read the article that your linked to and all I can say is that it amazes me how some automotive writers can make a living with their poor knowledge, experience, and style of writing. I get the feling that most of us on this board would do a better job putting together an article like that. As I've said in the past, stick to C&D, Automobile, and European Car - those are VERY good magazines with knowledgeable writers most of whom have had extensive racing experience.

"You'll find it difficult to rock the car sufficiently to free it because it takes too much time to manually shift between reverse and first gear. I found this out on the three different occasions that I got stuck in my driveway and had to go get help." ==> LOL, it's never crossed my mind to even put the car in reverse while rocking it to get out of snow. You just step on the gas lightly and then let the car roll back a little, then do the same till you get good grip and get out. What a clown, no wonder this guy got stuck three times. And how is it that using auto allows you to put it in reverse faster? What, he can't find his left foot??

"What's worse than having a rear-wheel-drive vehicle in snowy conditions, is having one with a manual transmission. There's no room for error. One wrong turn of the wheel, or too little speed, while backing the 330i out of a snow-filled driveway can get you stuck." Manual WORSE than RWD???????? Zero credibility. Everyone knows that manual gives you better control over the car, especially in snow. If this guy has never driven manual before, well...

"Snow, slush and their accompanying ice are not the surfaces for the almost instant increase in wheel spin of gear shifting. " Well, autos have to change gears too - not sure how that would be so different. Unless he doesn't have a clue about appropriate engine speed while shifting, in which case he's better off with an auto, yes. Taking the bus might even be better for this guy, we'd be safer that way too.

"Neither is a slippery road the place for the almost instance braking of downshifting. Depending on your speed, a downshift in a 330i can throw you into a controllable or uncontrollable skid. Luckily, I discovered this trait at a low speed. " Sigh of relief from the other drivers :0)

shipo · May 2001

I read that little piece of moronic trash. If AACBG.COM wants to maintain any journalistic integrity it will fire Mr. Washington right now. It is beyond my comprehension to understand how an automotive journalist cannot know how to "rock a car" with a manual transmission (here is a hint, power on, power off, power on, etc. -- think Mr. Miyagi). I would have a tough time understanding it if "Women's Wear Daily" ran such an article, but this idiot works for an outfit that *CLAIMS* to be the "Leading provider of streaming automotive content including interviews, press events, product launches and more." Give me a break.

Best Regards,
Shipo

denright · May 2001

I guess it's a matter of experience and preferences, but this past couple years, commuting home in ice storms and such during rush hour, I saw PLENTY of cars slipping and sliding around trying to go up Wisconsin Avenue's hills. My own FWD car (a '97 Pontiac Sunfire GT) had significant difficulties a couple times, and got stuck/snowed in a couple times.

I simply want the sure-footedness that AWD offers not just in snow, but on ice, on wet blacktop and in the rain, and on gravel and loose sand.

As far as braking distance on the AWD vs. the RWD versions of the 325 and 330, I suspect the braking distance difference is de minimis. I know the 330xi goes 60-0 in 103 feet. Pretty darn good.

As far as the RWD v. AWD acceleration goes, well we argued that to death yesterday, but I will include this link for those who didn't see it before:

http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2038a.shtml

peter80 · May 2001

I'm a new poster to the BMW 3-series board. I'm buying a new car to celebrate a recent promotion and I'm considering the 3-series, the Audi A4 and the Lexus IS300. I have some questions about the BMW that I hope you can answer.

First, some parameters. The car has to have an automatic transmission and leather upholstery. (I know, I know, a true enthusiast would get a manual transmission and the leatherette is very leather-like and more durable. I agree. But the car has to have an automatic transmission and leather upholstery!). The car does not need to be muscular (don't need to go from 0-60 in 6 seconds) but it does need to be agile (do need to twist and shout). The car needs to have a decent sound system with both a cassette player and a CD player, but I don't need to share my music with the neighbors. (I'm happy with the stock system in my Toyota Sienna). Lastly, the car has to have a reasonably comfortable ride (I'm not looking for a Miata).

Now the questions. 325xi vs 325i? Money's not an issue here but I'm not willing to sacrifice any driving pleasure. I know that recent posts suggest you don't get much for AWD, but what do you lose? Is the 325xi slower off the line and more lethargic cornering and braking (heavier) or faster off the line and more assured around the corners (AWD)? Or is it a wash? How 'bout maintenance? Will the xi have more problems since it has more complicated engineering? Why am I interested? My wife prefers AWD and I'd like her to be comfortable with the car, as long as we're not giving up too much in performance.

Brave1heart: would your 325i vs 330i opinion change if you had to get an automatic transmission? Or would you still feel the extra oomph isn't worth it?

I've test driven the IS300, a 1999 328i, a 2001 325i and a 2001 330i. The IS300 and the 328i were both pure fun; the 2001's where more composed. Too composed in fact. I'm assuming I'm noticing the 'new' steering that I've heard about in the 2001 BMWs. Are there any other performance-related differences between a 1999 3-series, a 2000 3-series and a 2001 3-series? I'd rather buy new; but I'm don't mind buying used if that's the only way a can get the driving experience I'm looking for (i.e. what I experienced with the 1999 328i).

Can anybody point me to a website or NJ dealership where I can get a good look at Topaz Blue versus Steel Blue? I've been to the BMW USA website and played around with the 'build you own' feature. I find the colors there misleading. Orient Blue is much darker in person and as far as I can tell Topaz Blue and Steel Blue are the same color on the website.

The HK stereo upgrade. Is it worth it for someone who is not an audiophile?

The BMW steering wheel seems big. Is it me? Is there a good reason?

Thanks for any help you can offer!

motorcity3 · May 2001

Brave1heart,

In one of your postings yesterday when you were replying to me you mentioned taking "your favorite turn". Where exactly is that? I lived in the Boston Metro area for 17 years and I was wondering where that turn was.

brave1heart · May 2001

93 So merges with rt 3, I think it's 128 So at that point. In a couple of miles you take the exit for 95 So - it's a two-lane ramp that starts as an S-curve and then tightens up to the left. Done it at 75 with Shtroumpf Muscle and there was room for, guessing, another 10 safely. Another favorite of mine is the Rt 30 exit of the Mass Pike West going towards the Natick mall. I'm sure you'd know it if you lived in Newton. That one's holding up at about the same speed :O)

brave1heart · May 2001

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you !!!!!!!!!!

i just checked dinan's web site again and they have actually updated their data now that the freeflow is available for the 325 and 330. this is very different from what i had read there last time. in short, you get 7 hp gain for the stage 2 and cai and another 12 (TWELVE!!) from the freeflow. that's a total of 19 and is ALL i've ever needed for about, calculating, $1,850-1,900. yiou pay $100 a pony and you get expanded rpms, engine breathing, and even better sound. i think i'm in, i just have to decide WHEN.

shipo · May 2001

I will attempt to speak for both Brave1heart and myself for a moment. I do not think that by being outraged (at least in my case) by that stupid article (or should I say that article written by somebody who would make a better journalist on the subject of macrame socks during depression era Detroit) on the 330xi, we were not in anyway questioning your decision (or anybody else's for that matter) to get AWD on your E46. I think that we all find the option intriguing, and were it offered when I bought my 328i, I would have at least considered it. Given your criteria, I am sure you made the right decision, and I am fairly sure that Brave1heart feels the same. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

trejos28 · May 2001

Hey everyone.

I've seen several posts about checking the status of a bmw order. Where does one go to check? bmwusa? if so, what section?

Thanks for your help.

denright · May 2001

C'mon, admit it, it was a hilarious and insightful simile.

errickson · May 2001

Select "Owners Circle" at the top.
You will need to register, and you will need your production number or vin.

denright · May 2001

I am a litigator. Specifically, I do complex financial litigation -- securities, commodities, antitrust, etc. I argue for a living in multi-million dollar disputes every day. Trust me, you can disagree with me all you want and I won't get my panties in a bunch.

We're all allowed to disagree. I still think I made the right decision for myself, but of course this in no way implies that anyone else didn't make the right decision for him or herself. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.

aaa330i · May 2001

This is getting painful to read.

brave1heart · May 2001

I got $32,735 and $38,560 on the BMWNA web site for the 325i and 330i respectively, equipped the way I want them. I can see that the 330 includes standard features that the 325 does not. Some of these can be easily priced, some of them cannot, as they are only available on the 330 and only in packages. I am not paying 6 grand difference for the 330, NO WAY!!! Really not interested wasting time breaking down the options - I'd rather put my money in performance upgrades. No regrets at all, just happy that I did the right choice for myself.

denright · May 2001

Honestly, with all due respect, I don't see what having a family has to do with driving an automatic. Please enlighten me, as my wife is twisting the screws on the baby subject and I expect to be a new daddy within a year or two.

denright · May 2001

Were those prices MSRP??? If so, they should be discounted, because there's a much bigger mark up (difference between invoice and MSRP) on the 330 as compared to the 325.

If you want to compare apples to apples, base the analysis on invoice pricing. A good negotiator is going to pay about $1500 over invoice for either a 325 or a 330.

shipo · May 2001

The two cars I priced out have the following:

330i Invoice: $34,860 MSRP: $38,710
325i Invoice: $31,390 MSRP: $35,035
Diff. Invoice: $ 3,470 MSRP: $ 3,675

Hmmm, I guess the markup difference is not as much as I thought.

Best Regards,
Shipo

denright · May 2001

That markup difference is smaller than I expected too!

mmcbride1 · May 2001

Just drive the IS300, A4, and 325i/330i all back-to-back and see what floats your boat. They are all very good cars. I will say, however, that if AWD is a priority, I would go with the A4. Audi's been making AWD cars for a long time. They have all the bugs worked out by now. Not that the AWD Bimmer will have problems, but it is the first year out with AWD on their cars.

If AWD isn't a priority, go get whatever you like best.

shipo · May 2001

I just did some "what if" stuff with various BMWs. It seems that BMW is using a target markup of just a tad over 11% across their normal (I did not test the M stuff) product line.

Best Regards,
Shipo

brave1heart · May 2001

denright - Just wanted to say that Shipo did speak for both of us - I would have said the same thing. I can also see that you are a very confident individual who is not afraid to disagree and I do respect that. I think we are all like that on this board - that's one of the reasons why we ALL love it!!! And just the way you made the right choice for yourself, and I made the right choice for myself, peter80 has reasons to go with the auto. He is past that decision-making progress and we should respect his choice just the way I and Shipo respect yours.

peter80 - The only configuration I personally would buy the 325 with is the manual. It would be too slow for my taste with an auto (by a full second!!) and AWD. You can have both of these with the 330 and if paying substantially more to get them is fine with you, then I'd recommend the 330 to you.

denright - You have a good point about comparing on invoice. Using invoice prices would probably lower the 6-grand difference by $600-650 (based on shipo's 11% markup calcs). As I mentioned before, we all have different preferences and I'd rather take the money from the power seats and the like and plunk them into performance upgrades.

Having different preferences makes discussions more exciting. I am not a fan of boring, bland, PC-style arguments and our pace here is just fine for my taste. I think we all still have respect for each other on this board and we agree to disagree so we can learn more, right?

denright · May 2001

While I agree with your point regarding AWD being somewhat new to BMW, I would like to point out that:

a) the 330xi and the 325xi have the same AWD system used in the X5, which has been out for a couple years; and

b) the 325ix (note the different order of the two letters) was a BMW AWD sedan available in the 80s.

mmcbride1 · May 2001

I know about the old 325ix's. But from what I understand (which is very little), they are completely different animals than the new ones - the AWD systems are very different. And the X5 has only been out what, 1 1/2 years or so? I'm not saying BMW will have problems with its AWD, I'm just saying it's too soon to know for sure.

Why did BMW stop making the 325ix? Was it cost or reliability, or did nobody buy them?

veekay1 · May 2001

Braveheart/Guru/others:
My car is finally on the boat!! Left Bremerhaven yesterday, expected arrival June 12 in NJ. Potential pick-up June 20!! Now the real countdown starts!
BTW, this board just keeps getting better, keep it up guys!
And yes, I have the step!(believe in safe sex!)
veekay1(325xi/sapphire/gray/ordered April 6)

bmwagonmaster · May 2001

I also have a 2000 MY 323. I asked the same question when I bought my car and the service manager said no code needed. He said that "anti-theft" meant that if somebody removed the radio it wouldnt be useable. He showed me in the radio manual p.24 it says you don't need a code for radio. I haven't had battery disconnected to test this, but that's what I was told.

kominsky · May 2001

If you can't find any Topaz Blue cars on the lot, I can send you a couple pictures. I've got a few of my coupe and a few of someone elses sedan. If interested, send me an email at kominsky@agere.com. Topaz and Steel are very different colors, but both are pretty slick looking.

drew37 · May 2001

I think I had the same "anti-theft" system in my 1990 Honda Accord. If someone took my radio.......then I couldn't use it.

bmwagonmaster · May 2001

OK, you got me! But that just shows how far modern electronics has come, right?!

brislance1 · May 2001

Thanks for the reply on the battery removal and radio coding. I think your salesman was correct. I read the same sentence on page 24. I assume you did not get a code number included in you radio manual either. I did e-mail BMW owners circle with the question. Will let you know what they say. I have the feeling they stopped the coding in 00 and no coding is now necessary when re-connecting the battery. Are you enjoying your 323? I have driven mine on a round trip from the north country to Arizona and it ran like the ultimate driving machine it is. I only wish the seats were more comfortable. Thanks again.

elroyxx · May 2001

Anyone have any thoughts/experience with using a roof rack on their Bimmer? I've been using a Yakima on my Honda for a couple of years and plan to use it on my 325i to transport my other baby (road bike) unless anyone has had a bad expereince or advice against using it they would like to share?

veekay1 - I'm hoping my 325i is on the same boat. According to BMWNA yesterday, mine was still sitting on the dock awaiting transport.

bmwagonmaster · May 2001

Actually, where I live, there's alot of car radios stolen and sold on the street. I don't believe a blinking LED is going to stop the local crackheads..

bmwagonmaster · May 2001

glad to help. Like everybody else here, I love my ride. Funny you should mention the seats, because that would be my only real complaint. I bought pre-owned so didn't have a choice. But knowing what I know now from these posts and personally testing (with the "seat of my pants"), I'd definitely order the sport seats or the power lumbar option if buying new. I may even retrofit one of those two options eventually...

pat · May 2001

Pardon me for a minute - I need to remind all of you that Town Hall strives to be a family friendly environment, and some recent posts have not complied with that goal. Therefore they have been removed.

Certainly some off-topic discussion is not a problem. But when we begin to stray into subjects and/or questionable suggestive language that most of us would not want our young children reading and asking questions about, we need to keep in mind that Town Hall wishes to be beyond reproach in focusing on a high level discussion of vehicles - and vehicles only - and does not wish to descend to the level of some internet bulletin boards which allow free-for-alls in language and content.

In other words, please keep it clean at all times and try to keep to the subject.

Thanks,

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

max63 · May 2001

I leased my 330i a couple of months ago. I know the money factor on the car for 36/12 is .00210 with a 62% residual. I believe the residual on my car was slightly higher, because of when I leased it. I higher residual will of course lower your payments, but I believe the lease deal they have now is still excellent. I know several people have mentioned putting down multiple security deposits, something I'm not too familiar with. Lease info on the money and residual can be found in the financing section of edmunds (Leasing Questions). They can provide you information on a month to month basis. I have a lease program so if you give me the numbers on your car I can figure out your payment.

tchoo · May 2001

deepdarkblu, wow, looks like we're in the same boat (literally)! Our orders are so similar I won't be surprised if they're sitting next to each other on the production line. I wonder which VPC cars in the NE arrive at?

ross66 · May 2001

braveheart why try to overstate the price difference between 325i and 330i? Clearly 3500-4000 difference not 5000-6000. Do you have buyers remorse? Many people want to drive off the lot with a car that already has the power and extra features and not deal with mods and chips.

postoak · May 2001

Well, I did the math too and I come up with a differential of AT LEAST $5700.

pat · May 2001

but I meant what I said a couple of posts ago.

Keep it clean. Posts not in compliance will continue to be removed, period.

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

shipo · May 2001

roc50mg · May 2001

This really stinks! I ordered my car on April 28, and my dealer originally told me I had a 90% chance of getting the car by the end of June (scheduled for week 25 production). Everybody's car seems like it's going into production a week or two early except mine. From the looks of it now I probably won't be getting the car until mid or end of July. I thought my dealer in Freeport, NY was to be trusted when they nonchalantly gave me a late June delivery, but now I feel like I've been had. BMW stinks for making people wait so long for their cars.

brave1heart · May 2001

Prices I came up with are MSRP and the options that I included are the options that I bought my 325i with: SP, heated seats, moonroof, xenons, on-board computer, in-dash CD, HK, and metallic paint. If they were standard on the 330i, I just didn't add anything. I got $32,735 and $38,560 on the BMWNA web site for the 325i and 330i respectively - try it yourself if you'd like. I also made an argument earlier today that the 330's added HP is at manufacturer's wholesale prices implying that it is a good deal for those that want the extra power. I always try to objective and fair and I try to build u my arguments with facts and/or logic. You'd like a lot like a troll if don't try to do the same. So let's try this again: read my previous post again (pasted below for your convenience) and tell me why you think I'm overstating the price difference. I have also mentioned that bone stock cars have the best resale value so obviously there are advantages to getting the 330 instead of going down the chips and mods way. Laos, keep in mind that the chips and mods are good for things that the stock 330 is not: expanded revs, engine breathing, and deeper exhaust note.

***************
I got $32,735 and $38,560 on the BMWNA web site for the 325i and 330i respectively, equipped the way I want them. I can see that the 330 includes standard features that the 325 does not. Some of these can be easily priced, some of them cannot, as they are only available on the 330 and only in packages. I am not paying 6 grand difference for the 330, NO WAY!!! Really not interested wasting time breaking down the options - I'd rather put my money in performance upgrades. No regrets at all, just happy that I did the right choice for myself.

macdude44 · May 2001

When I did the math between the two models I came up with roughly $35,000 for the 325 and $40,000 for the 330. It became a no-brainer as that $5,000 extra equates to 14%. Given the fact that the 325 pulls 184 horses and the 330 pulls 225 horses, that 14% increase in price gives you a 22% increase in power. That, all by itself, makes the 330 the better buy. Add the fact that you get the HK upgrade for free, the titanium colored headlight wells, a sportier looking dash, and half a dozen other features thrown in (sorry, I did this a couple weeks ago and can't remember it all) then the choice is clear. IF you can spare the additional $5,000. If not, then be happy with a fine German automobile.....even if most Accords will run it into the ground.

deepdarkblue · May 2001

kominsky · May 2001

"even if most Accords will run it into the ground."

Brace yourselves... this is going to get ugly.

golfnut7 · May 2001

My dealer, Jerry Dutcher with Reliable BMW in Springfield, Missouri, delivered my new 325i this morning and it is all I expected and more. (Alpine white, PP, CD and HK upgrade) My first impression is - Who needs leather? - I got the leatherette and can't tell the difference. I put about 50 miles of pure driving pleasure on it this afternoon and we are planning a road trip this weekend. I am impressed at the quality and solidness. Now I am starting to think, How long before I can afford to get one for myself since my wife is going to take this one. The only complaint that I may have is the seats. I wanted the sports package seats but didn't want the ride the SP has and the dealer couldn't get just the seats.

This is the start of a wonderful relationship.

golfnut7 · May 2001

I drive an Accord and we just got a 325i and I can tell you, there is no basis for comparison on any level. Oh, except they both have four wheels and an engine - but it ends there.

ross66 · May 2001

I read your previous post that's what I replied to. Let's make this simple:

Take 325i add HK, power seats, computer all std on 330i. let's add SP for kicks. MSRP = 30995
330i MSRP with SP = 35835
Variance = 4840

But, let's look a little deeper 330i has titanium
headlight surrounds, titanium front grille and fog lights, chrome exhaust tail pipes, aluminum ringed gauges in cockpit, automatic climate control system, front center armrest, upgraded interior lighting, aluminum interior trim - All not std and unavail on 325i
330i sport package has M wheels, M suspension, M aero package all unavail with 325i SP. PLUS the Engine! So for $4840 it seems pretty clear its not just the engine but all of the other features that can't be had on a 325i. If you can afford it go for the 330i and if you can wait get the 2002 330i. That spy picture has me salivating!

Comprende?

alpine325i · May 2001

Congratulations! Hooray! someone else with Alpine White, I love how it shows the sculpture of the car. Just wait until you put a few thousand miles on the 325i, smooth as silk, gotta love German engineering! I love the standard leatherette seats, very solid and comfortable enough for me. I just wish the thigh support angle was adjustable, you know, the part you sit on. What? your wife is going to take this one? Where is she going to take it? Pssst... (wispering) in that case, wake up before she does and grab those keys.

)

kominsky · May 2001

This battle could go on for a long, long time. I think we all have reasons we chose to get the 330 or 325 and I doubt anyone else will convince us we made the wrong choice... as I previously stated, in my case, the price difference after available discounts (bigger discount off MSRP on the 330) was ~$4K. For me it was worth it, but it's understandable that for others it isn't. The 325 is a great car!

If it has to continue, at least try to keep it factual...

ross66; fog lights, climate control, upgraded interior lighting, front center armrest, and M suspension are all available on the 325.

macdude44; if brave1heart will loan me his 325 (come on man, I promise I won't hurt it ;-)), I know a great mountain road on which I'd like to test your Accord vs. 325 theory...

BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

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