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Toyota Echo

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Comments

  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    It was interesting to read the information about auto-rx. Varnish deposits are a sign that an engine has not run far between startups. Most wear takes place during the initial warmup. Thats where the dammage happens. Im afraid there isnt any way to avoid that and additives like auto-rx are probably not going to help there. No manufacturer or independent testing laboratory has found that additives help prolong engine life. As a mechanic when ever I see these deposits I know how a car has been used. They are especially visible if you remove the valve covers.And when I see an engine with 100k on it and the valve train is sparkling clean, I know this is probably a well maintained car that has been driven good miles. I use STP in my wifes Honda because it leaks/burns oil and that will give you more miles between having to add oil. Every year she uses this car to take her mom to Maine and she frequently returnes with no oil on the dipstick! The STP helped a lot here. The fact that shes run the car a lot with the engine oil low is why it burns oil. But you know what? If you start the car car and watch it drive away blue smoke can be seen coming out of the tailpipe. But let the car warm up and the catalytic converter heats up and incinerates this oil. I thought the car would NEVER pass inspection like that, but let it warm up and it does!
  • pulgopulgo Member Posts: 400
    I agree with you, varnish or sludge is a sign that the engine is used on very short trips and probably has received infrequent oil changes.

    I believe that using a good synthetic oil will prevent sludge and varnish in a "sound" engine.

    Although costly, at maybe $ 20 to $ 30 per oil change, depending on the application and brand name of the oil, it is still much cheaper than having to rebuild the engine.

    If you want to be absolutely sure about the frequency of the oil changes that you should perform you might want to try analyzing the oil at varying intervals. I know, it is expensive with oil analyzing kits selling for $ 15 or $ 20 or more, BUT, you will be able to do a trend analysis and ascertain the exact oil change interval that is the optimum for your application.

    After 2 or three analysis results you won't have to spend money for analyzing the oil any more since you will know how long the oil is going to hold up.

    All of this will only make sense to people that keep their car for very long.

    If you sell or trade your car every 3 or four years, do 3k miles oil changes or every three months with an inexpensive "dino" oil like Pennzoil, Castrol GTX or Chevron (all SL standard) and I sincerely doubt there will be any problems before well past 150K miles.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    I thought people were doing timely oil changes to their Toyotas, only to have them sludge up? That was the impression I got from reading about the issue anyway.

    Also, if you have to change the oil every 3K miles to prevent sludge, and the car's maintenance schedule says 5-7.5K miles for an oil change (which most of the new ones do), then shoudln't the manufacturer replace the engine for free, considering you followed THEIR maintenance schedule for the car?
  • pulgopulgo Member Posts: 400
    If you follow the maintenance schedule, use the type of oil the manual says and the engine dies prematurely I'm sure Toyota would pay (keep all your receipts).
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Ive heard about this sludge problem with Toyotas. What is REALLY going on here I dont know but I can guess. Someone never changed the oil on his Toyota and had the engine fail. Having never changed the oil the engine failed AND was crudded up. Being resourcefull this person attempted to hornschwaggle Toyota into believing that the engine crudded because of some technically unexplainable fault Toyota evily engineered into its engines. (when REALLY the fault was the owner not changing the oil) So what we have here are incredible manipulative persons trying to take TOyota for all theyre worth. Recently I saw a person on TV trying to argue that the US is an evil entity because it is seeking the death penalty for John Malvo, the sniper. In this persons eyes the bad guys are the US for having laws permitting the executiuon of minors. They were really angry at the US. Maybe they can get Johnny C to get him off.
  • marjokermarjoker Member Posts: 10
    Would you buy another 5 speed manual? Consumer Reports writers do not like the 5 speed manual transmission in the ECHO (in addition to trashing the styling and other ECHO features).
    The 4 speed AT is very nice in acceleration, response, and fuel economy. Is the 4 AT worth the extra $$$?
    Also, would you buy a NEW 2002 at 10% discount off MSRP or pay MSRP to get the 2003? I am considering an ECHO 4 door sedan for a 2nd vehicle as it is difficult for the wife and I to get by with only 1. The 2002 4 door ECHOs in stock have 5 Speed Manual, A/C, PS, All Weather Guard Package, and Sport Cladding. THANKS for your advice.
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    There is such a significant difference in the exterior design of the 2002 and 2003 ECHOs. Which one do you like better?
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Advantage Auto: better resale value, no fear of needing costly clutch repairs, easier for older legs to operate.
    Disadvantage Auto: worse mileage, more difficult to control the car in slippery conditions, more expensive to repair than manual and fails sooner.

    Advantage Manual: better mileage, better control of vehicle in adverse conditions, lasts longer.
    Disadvantage Manual: may need clutch replaced, harder for older/injured people to operate, less common so less resale value
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    For your information sir, we had a '96 Camry LE that had every oil change done at a Toyota dearler at 7.5k miles, as the manual stated, and still got sludge! The Toyota mechanic noticed it at 80k miles. My question was how come they never noticed it before since they did every oil change on the car?
    I don't consider myself manipulative and resent when people like yourself think they know the answer to every problem that happens to others! I have read many of your posts over the years and have always thought you to be a reasonable person but your last post really pissed me off!
    You should really think before you type about subjects you know little about!
    The Sandman :-(
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Im sorry to have unfairly characterized you and others that way, Im sure its very disappointing to have a car you paid good money for have something "wrong" with it. But Im wondering, what problem did this sludge cause? Was the car not running properly? Engine dammage? Or did the dealer just say "Your car has sludge." and leave it at that? Perhaps this is a "problem" in their mind. On the other hand, if there is engine dammage I have to think the Toyota service interval of 7.5k miles is to blame. Thats too long to go for an oil change in almost every circumstance I can think of except PERHAPS long distance driving ONLY. And I think its fair to say Ive taken apart and rebuilt dozens of engines with varying degrees of usage. Im not talking theory here. But what happened with the dealer, was there an actual problem with the engine?
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    The dealers mechanic pulled me aside from the sevice adviser and told me and showed me the sludge. His advise was to get rid of the car, which we did 2 weeks later. I was confused, followed Toyotas recommendations in their manual, done by their personnel, and got this problem. Car had 80k anyways and wife wanted to downsize to a smaller car, so...
    Lost a lot of faith in Toyota at that point. Still have my '96 Corolla DX and my last Corolla I had for 10 years. Will try Honda with the next car though!
    The Sandman :-)
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Hmmm Im assuming he had the valve cover off? And there were brown colorations to the valve train? "Sludge" can be varnish like or it can look like cake froasting in extreme cases (like my friend Steves 87 Tacoma) I bought a 91 Accord Station Wagon for my wife in 96 with 80k on it. The very meticulous owners had documentation for oil changes every 6k miles. So when I put a new timingbelt/water pump in it at 90k miles per the schedule I was expecting a clean valve train area when I pulled off the valve cover. It was pretty brown though in there, not heavy like cake froasting but varnish none the less. The car had 153k on it when it was trashed and stolen last month. But the engine even with the sludge ran well, got 25mpg consistantly, and was quiet and powerfull. It did use one quart of oil per 1k miles and my wife did come back from Maine a few times with no oil on the dipstick. And blue smoke came out the tailpipe at startup but whent away when the cat converter heated up.
    So I drew two conclusions from this: 1)6k oil changes probably were not enough for this car 2) even with the sludge the car ran fine (wife took it to maine every years no problem.)
    SOOOO... whats up with this mechanic telling you your car is no good I dont know. He MAY have been perfectly sincere (but wrong, as I see it from here without seeing the car) or he MAY have been secretly trying to get you to buy a new car. (buying tiresat sears a mechanic once told be my brake pads were worn out and the calipers were about to crash into the rotors. I told him Id let my mechanic look at it (ME, who just replaced the pads two weeks before) So these things happen. I THINK there was truly nothing wrong with your Toyota. I mentiond Steves Tacoma 87 with 124k on it, with MAYBE five oil changes in the trucks entire life. You wouldnt BELIEVE the sludge under the valve cover. Runs fine though he drives it every day. Not to mention the gas that has been dripping from the carb fuel line for six years he wont let me fix. Got to go here comes the boss...
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    I thought of another advantage of an automatic over a manual. An automatic is easier to drive in congested traffic. It would be a better choise if youre going to be doing a lot of cummuting in bumper to bumper traffc
  • babyboomerbabyboomer Member Posts: 205
    because I am married to a lady who never learned how to drive anything else.
  • marjokermarjoker Member Posts: 10
    Thanks for the excellent responses concerning 5 Speed Manual vs 4 Speed Automatic transmissions in the ECHO. My wife greatly prefers the Automatic transmissions but there are no left over 2002 ECHO sedans with Automatic and the very appealing discount.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    I would try to get your wife an automatic - try to get the dealer to do a trade, or travel to another dealer that has the car you want.

    My wife is the same - "greatly prefers automatic." The four speed Toyota automatics are very reliable, smooth, and reasonably fast.
  • mdyvrmdyvr Member Posts: 3
    Hi all

    Just picked up my new Echo today. it's a 2002 4 dr, white, automatic with power windows. Thus far I am amazed at how quiet it is, even at highway speeds.

    We're in the middle of the rainy season here, and the initial problem I'm having is side windows not defogging in the rear seating area. That said, we're pretty much in the time of year when it can rain for a week nonstop. I'll see how it dries out in the next few days. It really could stand to be parked in a heated garage, just to dry it out a bit.

    I got rid of a 91 festiva. I loved it, but it was at the age when I'd get one thing fixed and another would go.

    I bought the automatic because I live in a hilly area and stop and go traffic. Snow happens only once or twice a year, so it's not really a concern.

    I'll let you know how it goes.
    btyvr
  • kaz6kaz6 Member Posts: 331
    Congratulations! The ECHO is a very quiet car and am sure you'll grow to love it even more!
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    At least while the car is being driven, it will help to run the ac along with a hot temperature setting and air selector set to interior to dry the car out. Good luck with your new ECHO! Youve purchased the best at what it does car out there, IMHO.
  • techncattechncat Member Posts: 6
    My wife insisted on the 5-speed manual, with 4-doors. She had just purchased a new '86 Colt when she met me and was impressed with how smoothly I shifted gears while she was stalling and bucking. She finally got things smoothed out, married me, and doesn't want to lose her touch. Of course, she didn't have years of experience on 13-speed and 5x4 Diesel truck transmissions like I did...

    Our 2001 has 16,000 miles, the OEM Bridgestones are about 1/2 worn, the engine is sparkling clean inside with Mobil 1, and 39 MPG lifetime, including lots of A/C time here in LA.
  • vadpvadp Member Posts: 1,025
    If it's a non-existing issue (according to kneisl1) then why Toyota issued the following statement?

    My guess would be as a response to lawsuits and numerous complaints. Don't you think?


    Toyota Motor Sales, (TMS) U.S.A., Inc., today announced a new customer satisfaction program for owners of 1997 through 2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0 liter V6 or 2.2 liter 4-cylinder engines. Toyota is taking this action because a very small number of customers have reported engine damage from motor oil breakdown, also known as oil gelling or “sludging,” a result of oil change intervals delayed beyond the factory-recommended schedule. While any make vehicle can suffer from this condition if the oil is not changed often enough, Toyota has initiated this program to ensure owner peace of mind.


    http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20020403

  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    I didnt mean to imply its a non existing issue, I have simply seen many vehicles with sludge formation under the valve covers. These engines ran fine and had quite a few miles on them. Note the above post 3512 about my wifes Honda.
    I would note however that Toyota is NOT paying for this program. Theyre going to charge more for their cars to pay for it. So is there any merit to these claims that we the consumers are going to be paying for? What exactly is this engine dammage the owners are talking about? This thing would seem to indicate that 6 and 10k mile oil changes are not wise. But if you change the oil at 3k miles and you still get sludge and the engine runs fine, what exactly is the problem?
    All I can think of when I hear this is what happened at the sales counter at Sears a few years ago. The guy ahead of me had an old hedge trimmer. I mean this thing was 20 years old and completely worn out. It looked like it was dragged behind a pickup truck for 100 miles. He wanted his money back because it didnt work. Duh! And he badgered the clerk until he got it! I said to the clerk why did you give that guy his money back? The clerk said "If you complain loud and long enough, youll get your money back" And I said "You mean Sears will chage ME more to pay for doing that!" and the clerk said "RIGHT!"
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    Toyota's manual states what intervals should be used for the oil changes. One would think that Toyota would have done enough research to make sure the information was accurate with some kind of tolerance factor figured in. This would have been the prudent and smart thing to do. In a perfect world, everyone would change their oil at the 3,000 interval, but since our world is somewhat flawed, certain tolerances should have been built in to accomadate those that either follow the manufacture's recommended intervals or for those boneheads that do it whenever the mood strikes them!

    The Sandman :-)
  • vadpvadp Member Posts: 1,025
    Some new models require a 10,000 interval under the normal conditions with non-synth oil.
    With the modern oil technology a reguirement to change oil every 3,000 miles in order to avoid sludge formation is unacceptable and would indicate an engine design defect.
    Do you know any other make having the same problem?
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Yes a diesel engine will have to have its oil changed every 3000 miles to avoid particulate contamination. I have yet to see one of these newer generation diesels with computer controlled injection, which may lessen this problem. But Im sure this will still be a factor.
    My feeling on the sludge issue is that frequent oil changes (3k) will lessen it. The extended intervals (7 to 10k) is probably going to result in some formation, even if the car is driven long distances, the most mild of conditions. BUT IMHO the formation of sludge in moderation at least is not going to hurt anything. Why Toyota and Honda etc specify thse long intervals is beyond me. Perhaps consumers who are charged $25 for an oil change would baulk at the expence of 3k changes. (thats almost $700 over 100k miles) And there is competition to have the most maintainance free car. I will always change my own oil four times a year. At $7-8 a change its cheap insurance, while posssibly not actually required.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    The VW TDI (diesel) engine requires oil changes only every 10K miles. Most people I know with those cars change it every 5K to be safe though. I wouldn't really feel comfortable changing my oil every 10K either.
  • marjokermarjoker Member Posts: 10
    Based on experience of many VW Beetle owners, that would indicate a VW buyer would need to change the oil only 5 times before needing a new engine. Beetle engines were notorious for needing to be overhauled/rebuilt at only 60 K miles.

    Sort of makes the supposed "sludge" problem in some Toyota engines a moot point.
  • pulgopulgo Member Posts: 400
    I had a 1971 beetle with 230K miles on its first engine. I sold it because I wanted a new car but it was still running fine.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Thats the bus that is worn out at 60k. My 74 beetles engine had a valve job at 130k. I put in new pistons, cylindars, and bearings but they werent worn out then. The engine was disassembled and put into the case from a 71 bus at 250000 miles and went another 30k, when I sold it. I saw it driving around town five years ago. At 250k the crank and camshafts miked out to new dimentions or near that. When I was driving the beetle 50k per year for a while there I changed the oil and adjusted the valves every week or two.(2.5 qts of oil and NO filter gave those numbers)
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    Alas, I knew you well - a racing engine in a tall light body. Alas, at 80 mph I didn't feel secure enough in the commute. I coughed up the extra dough and now have a Civic, which is also relatively light (but not as light) and saves gas (but not quite as much); but most importantaly is "old style" low to the ground instead of "new style" sitting up high. Sitting up high works on the heavy, squat, VW Golf, but not on the "ultralight" Echo imho. I love the car, but as a fast driver need something that hunkers down more. So the Echo goes off to my mom - who never drives on the freeway.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    I have no trouble at all at 80 in the ECHO on the freeway, but then I have a lot of time in (old) VW beetles at 75 and if you can drive one of THOSE at 75 the ECHO is childs play. (I think the small spacecraft in the Star Trek episode where all the galaxy's diplomats are on the Enterprise along with Spocks mother and father is an ECHO) Perhaps the ECHO is not all it could be in windy conditions, however. Your Mom is one lucky lady!
  • 719b719b Member Posts: 216
    does anyone have 15" wheels and wider tires on their echo? wondering if it tracks better on windy days
  • kaz6kaz6 Member Posts: 331
    Funny you should ask about tracking because I just drove from LA to Vegas with crosswinds gusting between 35-70mph! It's amazing what a wider tire can do for tracking! I barely needed to concentrate on correcting the steering during heavy gusts. My ECHO did have a habit of wandering in very windy conditions but not anymore. BTW, my tires are 205/15/50's and I love them!
    I never felt like the car was unstable at speed even before upgrading wheels and tires. I drive to Vegas from LA once a month to visit family and have no problem cruising at 80-85mph. It gets a little twitchy around 90mph but is amazingly quiet at speed.
  • 719b719b Member Posts: 216
    the two biggest complaints i've heard about the echo is cross winds at high speed and the air conditioning on super hot days. you seemed to solved the cross wind problem... how does the air conditioning work in vegas during the summer?
    seems like the 15" wheel option on the echo is well worth it.
  • kaz6kaz6 Member Posts: 331
    I have my a/c lines wrapped in insulation as was suggested earlier in this forum. The a/c is fine as long as you alternate between recirculate and fresh-to keep the condensor from freezing up. My old Ford ZX-2 had a much better a/c unit but the ECHO's is adequate. My a/c was checked out by the dealer at my 30k service and they found that the system had a leak in the delivery system so it was allowing hot air to enter into the flow. Ever since they fixed it my a/c has been great.
    As for the 15" wheels, make sure that your tires are 205's and not 195's. The 205's give you a wider footprint and more traction on dry pavement.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    "The 205s give you a wider footprint and more traction on dry pavements"
    I would also add that they increase the risk of hydroplaning on wet surfaces. They will also make the car handle far worse in snow. And their increased weight will cause increased wear on the already lightweight parts of the ECHOs suspension and transmission. Something to think about.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    I have to agree with Micweb about highway stability. I test drove my friend's ECHO before he bought it (it's a 2000 model), and it felt very feathery to me on the highway. I tacked it up to me being used to 17" tires and sport suspension (on my Jetta). I also rode in the car once (in the back, and I am 6'3 and was comfortable!) and it felt brittle to me when hitting bumps. The smallest, lightest car I ever drove, a Geo Metro, felt the same way though. So it has to be the weight. Also, I am used to driving heavier vehicles too (my first was a 94 Bonneville).

    I saw a pic of an 03 ECHO in a new-car price book the other day, and it had fog lights on the front. Looked pretty neat actually.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    I was just looking through the 03 Consumer Reports Buyer's Guide last night, and the ECHO (and most Toyota models) are on the list of less than about 15 with much-better-than-average predicted reliability.

    I would consider an ECHO in a second if I didn't drive highways all the time where the speed limit seems to be 75 or more (Capital Beltway in MD/DC). They are a very practical, spacious car. And I even think the styling is pretty cool as well.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    On the Garden State Parkway (near the town of Nutley, I think) the road is five or maybe sixlanes wide. Theres a lot of slow traffic on all lanes and there are people surfing around these slowpokes like they're moguls. Slowpokes = 50 surfers = 80. I find the ECHO is a completely worthy car for this type of thing.
  • kaz6kaz6 Member Posts: 331
    As far as I know, the gross weight of the tire/wheel is roughly the same as there is less sidewall and lighter alloy wheels. The total circumference is the same as oem, just wider. I have driven in heavy rains and haven't had a problem with hydroplaning-I have Yokohama M/S rated tires. I do realize that they would not be great in the snow but I live in Los Angeles so not a problem. ;)
    I do have a problem with these tires: I take corners way too fast now and all my stuff goes flying around in the car! :D
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    I saw a silver, 2003 ECHO sedan a few days ago in a handicap spot at a Target store. I don't believe it had any cladding, painted nor unpainted. I think it looked very good. A few inches in additional body width wouldn't hurt for the front view, but it looks really good from the back.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    I could probably deal with an ECHO at 75-80mph if it had wider tires and didn't feel like it was getting tossed by crosswinds on the highway. That's the way my friend's car felt to me when I drove it.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Back when my Echo was just a few months old, I took it on a trip to St. Louis. During parts of that trip, I had the Echo in the triple digits (according to the speedometer). Felt rock solid.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Last night when my roommate was driving the "Major," a teenager in an SUV ran a red light and ended up hitting my car with his tire. There is quite a bit of smudging on the side of the front bumper and a big brown spot on the cladding. Any suggestions for getting this guy's tire track off my car? Especially the spot on my cladding.
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    Please send my best wishes to the Major.
  • kaz6kaz6 Member Posts: 331
    I've had great success using NuFinish to get that sort of thing off of my cars. I had a white car prior to my ECHO and someone had left a huge patch of black smears from there bumper once. After about 1/2 hour of rubbing(apply a gob of liquid then rub it off...repeat) it was like new. I'm sure that it would be easier using rubbing compound but that's all I had.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Well here in NJ we are going to get it snow wise this winteer. Ever since the hurricanes went through LOUISIANA weve been getting a northeast (as in Noreaster) weather pattern bringing rain every week since then. Now that its winter that means its going to be SNOW. I expect a lot of it here.
    I wish my ECHO did as well in snow as the 93 Saturn my wife is driving now. Boy that car does GREAT in snow and with cheapo Pep Boys tires too. My ECHO wants to swap ends kind of like the old beetle. (but without the traction of the beetle) I have Potenzas on it now. Im wondering if anyone has any good things to say about their tires in snow?
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    I have heard from the Protege board (the 99-00 ES models came with Potenzas) that their traction pretty much sucks, and their treadlife is pretty short as well. Their traction gets worse and worse when they get older.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Oh please no dont say it gets worse! The treadwear number for the potenza as written on my tires says 160. I cant recall seeing a lower number! Which makes me a little peeved at Toyota because I understand some listers got Michelins on their ECHOs.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    Someone on the Pro board lost traction on worn Poortenza (as this person calls them) tires at 20,000 miles, and hydroplaned into the back of a Volvo.
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