Toyota Echo

romig · December 2003

My idea of storing an ECHO is not a good idea after all, they were made to use..Storing a Model T Ford might be O.K.as there are no electronic parts and there are more parts available to-day then any other car.I am used to the idea my l961 BMW Earls Fork Motorcyle ran for 40 some years and would easily last another 40,No electronic parts..There are l923 BMW bikes thar are still used in Canada to-day,Thay were simple..

fuelmiser · December 2003

The Scion A is a heavier car than the Echo, and is considerably lower in gas mileage. I don't consider it a substitute for the Echo hatchback (which is sold only in Canada). So there may be a trip to Canada for me in the near future. Again, does anyone know the pitfalls of importing a new car from Canada? A Toyota dealer up in Ontario (in the vicinity of Buffalo, NY) says it is done all the time and that there is an agent he can recommend who does all the paperwork for $350... Plus, you don't have to get the air conditioning and other stuff that I don't want, but that Toyota USA forces you to take.

pulgo · December 2003

http://interactive.onramp.ca/hansens/library/files/uscitizen_cana- dianvehicle.pdf

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/imports/factmnc.htm

This should give you a start into the difficulties of bringing a Canadian vehicle into the US.

fuelmiser · December 2003

Thanks, Pulgo, for the links, which show page upon page of forms and requirements. They do tend to give one a bad case of bureaucrat-o-phobia. The thought of innocently wading into that thicket is enough to make me want to buy a gas guzzling Navigator instead of an Echo. Presumably, one might be delivered from this particular form of purgatory by hiring an agent for whom these nightmares are all in a day's work. This was recommended by a dealer I talked to. But of course an agent may not be entirely forthcoming about the obstacles, either. Has anybody out there had any success with this? (or failures)

lakelandfl · December 2003

Just buy yourself a new Echo and be happy with it .I think you would love a 4 door Echo mine is a 2 door and i love it .

pulgo · December 2003

fuelmiser:

Here's another interesting link:

http://www.news4colorado.com/seenonnews4/local_story_134112546.ht- - ml

bodble2 · December 2003

Forget about importing. Just move to Canada!

fuelmiser · December 2003

Thanks for all the great advice! First, let me say that the newspaper article that Pulgo references seems to be mostly concerned with used vehicle imports. I am interested in a new vehicle. The article does have a disturbing note about warranties; if one could not get a US dealer to honor the Toyota warranty then that would be the kiss of death for the idea, wouldn't it? I could of course forget this obsession and buy an Echo 2 or 4 door. However, I tend to keep vehicles for a long time and I hate to compromise on something that I will be living with for years. As far as moving to Canada is concerned, I think that is the best idea yet! I have always found Canadians to be wonderful people, and the country to be highly civilized. With global warming, the climate there should be getting better, too...

bodble2 · December 2003

"With global warming, the climate there should be getting better, too..."

Oh, I don't know about that one! In the span of a couple of months this year, we've had super dry weather, raging forest fires, torrential rainfall and floods.

kneisl1 · December 2003

Fuelmiser you mentioned that the Scion A is heavier than the ECHO. How heavy is it exactly?

kneisl1 · December 2003

I was just looking over the Scion A at Toyotas website. They are offering a huge ammount of things on it that arent on ECHO...for the same or less money. What gives here? Also the car is a hatchback which makes it a much more versitile car. The only catch is the weight...its 300-400 lbs heavier than ECHO which means it wont accelerate as well nor get as good fuel mileage. Fuelmiser exactly what do you have against the Scion A? It looks like a very viable car.

fuelmiser · December 2003

The Scion A is considerably more expensive, gets considerably less gas mileage, and has a bunch of extras that I don't want. My taste in cars runs to the very basic, as you may have guessed by now. I have owned, since new, a 1987 Chev Sprint/ER. This car cost $6000 new, and will get up to 60 US miles per gallon. In winter, with stop and start driving, it gets in the low 50's. I would not be looking for a new car now except for the fact that the Sprint is getting rusty around the rocker panels, and has 200,000 miles on the odometer.

I like the idea of the hybrid cars, but they are rather pricey. If I spent that kind of money on a car, I am afraid I would have to go into crisis counselling if I got a scratch on it.

If I can't find an Echo hatchback my alternative would be an Echo sedan/coupe rather than the Scion A.

Thanks for all your comments. I will keep you posted.

dgecho1 · December 2003

scion xa that I saw was cramped in the rearseat and relative trunk room very limited. can't comment on ride as they are only on display here. I saw no real advantage over the echo esp. as a basic commuter or around-town car. Visibilty not as good as echo either. Aslightly used echo that can be found with a little searching should be a better value....relaiblity is the same or better. with a proven product. scion xb- lots of potential if you haul a lot!
Thanks,
Don

kneisl1 · December 2003

Hybrid cars do not work...dont waste your money on one. The battery will be $$$ to replace besidesbeing dirty to make. Many people report no better than 45 mpg with them....5 mpg more than ECHO for twice the money. The ECHO sedan is a good car. Today I towed my sons 93 Altima home with it with the tow strap my mom gave me ten years ago. I think the fuel pump went or possibly the fuel filter/fuel system is clogged.

kneisl1 · December 2003

When i recently saw the Scion A it reminded me of something but for the life of me I couldnt remember what. Now I remember. It looks like the animal in Galaxy Quest that the movie actors tried to beam up to their spaceship but it came in inside out and exploded.

suvshopper4 · December 2003

You towed an Altima with your Echo? I'm impressed.

Does the Echo have a tow rating?
Or were you just stuck for a way to get the Altima home?

pulgo · December 2003

In Europe the same car, but with another name - YARIS- can tow 2000 pounds or about 900kg, if the trailer has brakes. All of this with the smaller 1.3 liter engine.
If would assume that if precautions are taken (little traffic, no hilly terrain, low speeds, low ambient temperatures) a car like the Altima could be towed safely for a FEW miles with no harm to the engine. I would lock out overdrive (if automatic transmission is used) and not abuse the clutch (Kneisl1 has a manual transmission).

kneisl1 · December 2003

Its was only about a 2 mile tow on flat ground. The ECHO engine has little low end torque and it was necessary to slip the clutch quite a bit to get moving. Yes the steets were empty mostly but my son assumed the Altima would follow my car and did not turn the wheels at all the first turn! The ECHO in the American version is towing not recommended but you can buy hitches made just for ECHO and they go on with four bolts and no drilling/cutting. I tow a boat and traile that together weight about 500-600 lbs with motor et al.

fuelmiser · December 2003

I talked to an auto importer in Baltimore. The Yaris cannot be imported into the USA, they said; I suggested this was perhaps because its diesel engine could not meet US pollution standards. The person on the phone agreed. I am not sure this is strictly true, because the complicated EPA/UScustoms forms that you can see in pulgo's links (posted a few days ago) seemed to allow for exceptions. I think that a person would have to be brave indeed who would wade into that bureaucratic thicket. I am investigating the importing of the Echo hatchback from Canada, which apparently meets the US pollution specs and may not require such a stout heart.

There are many import agents in the US who are licensed to import cars.

You an get a list of them at http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/web_RI_list07252003.ht- ml

I talked to one of the agents listed in northern NY state, and they said, in effect, 'This is what we do, and we do it all the time.' The price for their services was US$350.00

kneisl1 · December 2003

You are to be praised for your efforts in looking for ways to import cars which dont make it to the US, fuelmiser. Not that I think it will work, but if it does you should make your plan public and charge money for it.
I evolved a plan many years ago to import Mexican made VWs when the ones made in germany were no longer availible. Somehow, someway you get one of these illegal critters to your house. You already have, say, an American ECHO already liscenced and insured and just transfer the plates and paperwork to the new illegal one. The illegal import in effect assumes the identity of the legal car. Of course that means its twice as expensive and if you ever get found out in an accident youre duck soup.

fuelmiser · December 2003

I would not try to import a car if I thought it was illegal! There are new car dealers in Canada who will sell cars for import. It is done via an agent; EPA forms that certify that the car meets US pollution controls are prepared, US import duties (where applicable) are paid at the border, and so on. Canadian taxes are waived, but of course you pay state sales taxes when you register the car in the US. There is a substantial volume of this type of business that happens along our border with Canada, and it appears to be completely on the up and up.

For an Echo, which is made in Japan, I understand that the US will charge an import duty when the car is brought in from Canada. Other makes or models may not have the import duty: if the car is actually made in Canada, then the import duty is not levied. This is apparently due to free trade agreements between the US and Canada.

I will post more as I learn about this. Meanwhile, for those of you who want to do their own research, here is a link to a government booklet on importing cars. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/imports/quiktext.htm#canversion

kneisl1 · December 2003

I was just reading that sales of the PT Cruiser and the New Beetle have collapsed. They just arent selling any more. BMW has limited imports of the Mini to 25,000 a year because they fear a saturated market. So the hot trendy cars are falling by the wayside while the ECHO keeps chugging along. Not even the so called experts in the field like Edmunds could kill ECHO with their disparaging comments. We ECHO owners know a good thing when we se it and are able to look beneath the surface to see the quality within.

jackiedoodle · December 2003

the other day, my ignition would not turn nor would the auto shifter move. i started to panic, then i moved the tilt steering lever and everything worked. i put the tilt back in the original position and everything is cool.

mcvarney · December 2003

So far I have not found anything about the TSB on rattling door lock pulls. My dealer here in Oregon is also unaware of the TSB, and the service manager says there is no record that the part has been updated. If we can't find any more information, he will order the current part and see if it is any wider than the existing pulls.

A couple members of this board (sfecho and babyboomer?) mentioned that they had this one fixed. If so, it would be very useful to have the name and location of the dealer(s) who have done this. Then I can hopefully track this one down. : )

BTW, thanks for the response to my previous post. The TSB forum didn't respond, so I assume there isn't any information there.

- Matt

babyboomer · December 2003

My side of the story: My son took the Echo to dealer for oil change and I told him to fuss about the rattling door lock pulls since under warranty. And if they ever came out with a TSB then we could say we had the problem when car was under warranty. Later after next date with the dealer I remember telling son they must have put thicker ones since no more rattling.

His side of the story: He does not remember telling them about the pulls. He did not save any paperwork from his trips to the dealer (He said they did not give him any paper about warranty work). I ask for and save all paperwork when I have maintenance done but no trace of dealer replacing the pulls in my files. My son now drives the Echo and does not complain about any rattling. They may have done an adjustment.

Hoping there is someone out there who can help.

romig · December 2003

I am talking about by 1911 Colt 45, my l960s BMW motorcycle, and my Red ECHO sedan.They are truly works of Art. Even when I dont use all three I appreciate just looking at them..My Toyota dealer has no ECHOs in stock but they still get requests for them..Go to a dealer that has a scion, they will let you drive them.. The salesmen get a demonstration credit and if he sell then he gets a 200 dollar commision.. I dont like Scion a but after awhile Scion b grows on you. I wonder how Scion b holds up with sidewinds, is it just another Fad car? I am wondering how long the car discussions on the ECHO will continue. It isn"t dead yet..

lakelandfl · December 2003

Still love my Black 2 door Echo 5 speed.It's the best small car on the road and it's a Toyota so what more could you ask for .I know it could have more bell's and toy's on it but i still think it's a cute car .

kneisl1 · December 2003

Imagine that: a car you drive simply because you like to drive it and not because it has power outside mirrors, PL,PW etc etc.
Merry Christmas everyone! This is my ECHO's fourth Christmas.

dgecho1 · December 2003

By now thre must be somebody? Any problems/
Thanks,
Don Gillespie

sfecho · December 2003

Babyboomer... message 4162-
I checked my records about when I got my door locks fixed under warranty and here are the details:
San Francisco Toyota
415-674-0640
Service Advisor- David Chu
Invoice TOCB21588
1/29/03

fuelmiser · December 2003

I was planning to drive up to the Buffalo, NY area and go over into Canada to get the hatchback. The recent orange alert has me worried about delays at the border, so now I am thinking of the US version again. Is the US Echo supposed to be phased out to make way for the Scion? Maybe I need to make a decision on this one soon. I don't want the Scion. It is heavier, more expensive, and gets less gas mileage than the Echo.

fuelmiser · January 2004

which was made by Suzuki and which, in the ER model, got up to 60 US mpg. That was 17 years ago. Admittedly, it is a small, lightweight car, but the technology that created it seems to have foundered. For those in the US wanting an environmentally sound car at a reasonable price without all the bells and whistles, there is nothing offered today to compare to the Sprint.

The complaint I have about the hybrids is that 1)they are not inexpensive to purchase initially, 2)the batteries, which surely have a finite life, are extremely expensive: I have heard a figure of $US 5000 to replace the Prius batteries, and 3) the environmental cost of producing them cannot be small.

The Echo might be considered the heir to the Sprint. However, the Echo's mileage is considerably less, the car is somewhat more expensive and (in the US at least) cannot be purchased without a number of pricey extras. It is not available in the US as a hatchback design, which is the only sensible design for such a small car.

It appears that the relaxation of the CAFE standards in the US has sent unfortunate signals to the economy: that it is not important to save fuel, that it is OK to indulge in massive environmentally damaging cars and trucks, and that the current price of oil accurately reflects all the external costs (such as war, global warming, pollution, and the problem of finding a substitute when this diminishing resource becomes scarce).

A small, simple, and relatively cheap car which gets high mileage could be (and should be) available to US consumers today, but it is not.

kneisl1 · January 2004

I recently wrote a piece on hybrids in the Prius section. With the $10,000 you save buying an ECHO over a Prius, you can buy enough gas to drive the ECHO 16k miles a year for ten years. For $4000. That saves you $6K. I agree with you entirely about the unsuitability of hybrids. Its time they were revealed for what they are. A colossal waste of money and resources.
PS if you want a stripper ECHO, try a dealer which is in an out of the way location. Big city dealers wont trouble you get you a stripped ECHO, but a hungrey one in podunk usa might. They might even have one in stock.

suvshopper4 · January 2004

I wonder how much of the weight difference is due to safety design and equipment.

Were the Sprints built to last, like a Toyota is? (I truly don't know, I'm asking here.)

How much does safety equipment add to the cost?

And I wonder how much the price difference would be in inflation-adjusted dollars. (Seventeen years is a long time.)

fuelmiser · January 2004

My Sprint has 201,000 miles on it and still runs fine. It has some rust; for that reason I think it is important to replace it. How much does it weigh? I am not sure, but I would guess less than 2000 lbs, empty. It is powered by a 1000 cc 3 cylinder, OHC engine thru a 5 speed manual transmission. I do not consider it underpowered, because it goes down the freeway quite happily at 70 MPH.

How much weight does safety equipment (mainly airbags) add to a car? I would guess not much. Anti-lock brakes? Again, I would say not much.

The Sprint cost me $US 6000 and change in 1987, not including taxes. That was a stripped car: no air, no power windows, no radio even. The 2004 Echo I got a quote on was $11,500, at a dealer in Maryland. This Echo had the usual package with air and other stuff, so it is not a perfect comparison to the Sprint. I would guess that, if one were to adjust for inflation, the air bags, and the (not optional) extras, the price would come out much the same for the 2 cars. But then, the Sprint comes out way ahead because of its phenomenal gas mileage.

I often hear the argument that light cars are not as safe as heavy cars. From the standpoint of physics, I would have to agree that if everything else is equal, the heavy car, when it collides head-on with the light car, will be safer to be in than the light car. To counter that gloomy realization, I offer this point of view: it is true that I am exposing myself to a slightly greater danger of dying or being injured by driving the light weight Sprint. (I try to offset this a bit by driving more defensively.) But I feel that our nation, partly due to its obsession with huge cars, is dangerously dependent on oil imports. This dependence in part has caused us to engage in war, thereby costing the lives of our young men and women. One might by extension argue that by driving small cars and accepting a bit more danger as drivers, we could collectively lessen our nation's oil addiction, and the wars that are fought (and the lives that are lost)to sustain that addiction.

mcvarney · January 2004

Babyboomer and sfecho: thanks for the updates. If I find out anything more specific about the situation, I will post it here.

- Matt

suvshopper4 · January 2004

Wow, great miles, especially out of a very small engine (1000cc, 3-cyl).

In the 201k miles you put on the Sprint, did you need to do anything other than routine oil & filter/fluids maintenance, such as timing belt, water pump, tranny, suspension, etc?

fuelmiser · January 2004

I have had to put about 4 new exhaust systems in it (down stream from the catalytic converter). These were after-market systems and I put them on myself. This is a great argument for a stainless steel exhaust system!

I have had perhaps 3 timing belt replacements. They are fairly simple and cost about $120 each. For comparison, the local VW dealer quoted me $640 to replace the timing belt on a VW Golf diesel.

I replaced the rear axle due to rust problems near a welded joint. This cost about $300.

I replaced the carburetor with a rebuilt one. I don't think it really needed this; rather I think the mechanic did not know how to work on it.

I have been religious about oil changes, which I do myself. I replaced a thermostat once. Except for that, the cooling system has never needed attention.The clutch is still holding up fine, as is the transmission. I have been very gentle with the clutch and I don't detect any significant wear on it.

I get about 80,000 miles on a set of tires. I always buy the best tires - usually Michelin.

That is about it. It may not be quite as hardy as a Toyota, but it has been a very reliable car over the years.

suvshopper4 · January 2004

Good stuff. Thanks.
60 mpg from a carburetor (not f.i.)? Wow.
Sounds like original clutch? Wow again.

-ss4

m4eth · January 2004

Quote from prior message...The Yaris in Europe comes with a 1.4 liter diesel, 75 hp, with a rating of 46 MPG city, 63.5 MPG highway. I'll bet you would like it. 0 to 60 is about 12 seconds, top speed is 106 mph.

kneisl1 · January 2004

The Prius is alrready out of business but people unable to do the math arent paying attention. It makes no sense to buy a car that costs $10k more than a gas ECHO, when it will only save a couple of thousand dollars in fuel over the life of the car. Its amazing the excuses Prius owners have for thier car. Like, it seats five people whereas ECHO seats four. Duh! Hybrids are an incredibly expensive way to save on gas. But I would love that diesel Yaris.

fuelmiser · January 2004

I did a little investigation into the Yaris. See my posting here on Dec 10, 2003. I think that the reason that the Yaris cannot be imported has to do with emissions (mainly the fine particulates). The Europeans have decided that it is more important to save fuel than it is to have clean air, so they have gone for diesels in a big way. Here in the USA our fuel has historically been much cheaper than Europe, and we have decided that clean air is important (I agree). There is some work being done to clean up diesel emissions, and we may (eventually) be able to have the fuel efficiency of the diesel cycle along with clean air. If the US car-buying public insisted on fuel efficient cars, then this whole process would move along a lot faster, in my opinion.

dgecho1 · January 2004

Thanks,
Don

fdanna · January 2004

If you succeed in importing a Canadian model vechicle, I'd be interested in hearing about it. Is it still worth it after duties and government fees? How will you insure a car that the insurance companies know nothing about (or register it). Do you still get a warranty?

fuelmiser · January 2004

I have done a bit of research on this. See my postings here dated Dec 10 and 11, 2003. I am told by the import agents that, for the Toyota Echo, there would be no problem getting the car registered. It takes about 10 days, and the agents will help with this. They charge about 300.00 US. There is a modest import duty for a Canadian Toyota Echo, because it is built in Japan. When you add it up you can still get an Echo hatchback for about what you pay for a sedan here in the US. The real reason for doing it is to get the hatchback, not to save money.

Toyota US apparently will honor the warranty on Canadian Toyotas; at least that is what they told be when I called the corporate headquarters in California several weeks ago.

The hatchback looks better, and is, in my opinion, a better design for such a small car. It is a shame that Toyota USA does not offer it. I think they are hoping that US consumers can be persuaded to by the Scion instead...

fdanna · January 2004

I have looked at the Scion and I can't understand why the mileage numbers are so low compared to the Echo hatchback. Also, Scion does not offer cruise control or a sunroon.

I'm going to contact my insurance company to see how they can figure the premium and if they give me a rate comparable to an Echo.

It says on Toyota's website that the US warranty is valid in all of North America... I'd imagine that should hold true for Canadian and Mexican.

Are you still considering this option?

dgecho1 · January 2004

Can somebody with a 2003 echo that has a tach get the rpm's at 60-65-70 mph?
Thanks,
Don Gillespie

mazama · January 2004

I read in a review of the Scions that their transmissions have a lower gear ratio than the Echo to help with performance, due to their heavier weight. That and greater wind resistance (particularly with the boxy Xb) explains the fuel mileage difference.

wrgraham · January 2004

My sister had a 1984 Honda Civic, which she got new for slightly over $5000. It was a 4 speed with a 1300cc engine. And it definitely got better gas mileage than my Echo. I drove it quite a lot, it got a bit above 45mpg, while my Echo has been holding steady at 42mpg.
My 2000 Echo has 95K miles on it now. Like new.
Regarding the tach or absence, from prior Road test magazine specs I can pass along that for 1000 rpms in the 5 gears you get almost exactly 5, 10, 15, 20, 25mph. All the actual numbers are within a half mph. Hope this helps.

kneisl1 · January 2004

We're getting lots of snow here in NJ and Im getting lots of oppertunities to drive in it. Last night after 4 inches of snow I drove home in roads that were not plowed. Its amazing to me how the car is very similiar to my old VW beetle in snow. It most sincerely wants to swap ends at every chance it gets. We have few hills here, but it does not seem to get very good traction. Id hate to have to drive it on real hills back in New York. I have the Potenza tires and I wonder if getting a better tire would help.

Toyota Echo

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