Toyota Echo

kneisl1 · July 2006

There isnt a timeline for replacing the timing chain. Its not like a belt. When a timing chain goes bad the engine runs lousy and makes a lot of noise. Why do you ask? Is there a problem with your ECHO that might be TC related?

babyboomer · July 2006

I could not find anything in the manual about replacing the timing chain. A friend with an old 100,000+ Camry had timing chain failure so I was curious. My mechanic and you correctly told me not to worry about it. Thanks.

kneisl1 · July 2006

Well have you checked your valves adjustments? If your ECHO has 60 k miles on it the manual says to check the valve adjustment. Its easy to check the clearances but hard to actually adjust them should that be necessary. You didnt say how many miles on your ECHO but Im guessing its getting up there.

nippononly · July 2006

when a timing chain is beginning to go, because for six months beforehand it is very noisy, sounding just like you would think a loose chain would sound. They give you lots of warning, but you do have to listen to the engine once in a while.

Alternatively, you can have the car serviced and inspected every 15K miles or so, and the mechanic will catch it if the chain is beginning to wear out and need replacement.

babyboomer · July 2006

My Echo has 65,500 miles. No warning noises. Mechanic said all is okay and that the Echo is like a tank: it takes a lot of abuse and still keeps going.

kneisl1 · July 2006

65k miles doesnt appear to be even breathing hard for the ECHO. I wouldnt imagine the timing chain would need any attention for possibly 125-150K miles. If you are thinking of making your ECHO a long term project, may I suggest to have the valve clearances inspected at this time though. Its almost a DIY to CHECK the clearances and if they are OK then thats all thats necessary. What you are looking for at this point is a clearance that is too TIGHT. A tight valve can lead to a valve with NO clearance and that means it will be held open in the cumbustion chamber during ignition. This will result in a burned valve. Your car wont pass emissions, will get worsening gas mileage, and will eventually need an expensive valve job. (probably resulting in selling the car)
I can walk you through checking the valves no problem.

babyboomer · July 2006

Echo will be a long term project. Waiting on checking valve clearances instructions. Thanks.

kneisl1 · July 2006

This message is just whats involved in doing the check. Ill get more specific when I have a look at the service manual this weekend. Ive been thinking of checking mine this fall (when it gets cooler) even though the car has only 33k miles in it (after six years). I can get really specific after that.
To check the valves you need to remove the black plastic valve cover (four 10mm acorn nuts), the spark plugs, (so you can turn the engine over easily), and the metal valve cover itself. Ive never removed mine myself so I cant tell you whats involved right now, but it should be easy. The main thing to think about is putting it back on so it doesnt leak afterwards. I would suggest delaying putting back the black plastic one for a week or so (engine wil run fine without it) to make it easy to ensure there are no oil leaks.
Once the valve cover is off, youll see the cams. There are 16 valves to check. Youll need a feeler gauge to check the clearances, about $5 at pep Boys or a similiar store. I dont know what the actual clearances are without looking at the book. Ill get to that another time. There are two rows of valves. The intake valves are the ones nearest the FRONT of the engine. The exhaust valves are the ones nearest the REAR of the engine. To check the clearance, you will rotate the engine so the cam of that valve is pointing UP (or nearly so it doesnt have to be PERFECTLY up) You can do this by putting a wrench or socket on the nut in the center of the alternator pulley. Or just pull on the belt like I do. The spark plugs must be OUT to do this. You will check each valve and write the result on a piece of paper. I like to make 16 circles in two parallel rows of eight (just like the valves are laid out on the engine) and write each valve in the corresponding circle. Ill get more specific how to do this another time.
Right now you need to know why you are doing all this. You are looking for a tight clearance on an exhaust valve. It almost doesnt matter what the intake valve clearances are. (as long as theyre not zero or really out of wack which is RARE) The exhaust valve clearances can be too loose (even out of spec loose) but there CANNOT be too little clearance. The result of that is eventually a burned valve. This is what you are looking for a tight exhaust valve.
Now a word about checking valve clearances. It is unusual to find valves clearances out of spec. They are probably fine. But if you DO find one really wrong, dont freak out. Thats what the check is for. You can have the dealer adjust it and all will be well. The WORST thing is NOT checking the clearances and having a tight exhuast vlave go undetected. That would mean an expensive valve job at some point.
Thats enough for now. Ill check what the values are for the exhaust and intake valves tonite in the service manual.

kneisl1 · July 2006

I looked at the service manual. I forgot one thing. Before you can check the valve adjustments the engine must be COLD ie not run in less than 8 hours. Best to leave it sit overnight and check the valves first thing in the morning.
To get the metal valve cover off there are 9 bolts and 2 nuts. Probably 10mm. The sparkplug connectors need to be removed from the plugs as well.
The clearance for the exhaust valves is .010 - .014 inches. The clearances for the intakes is .006 - .010 inches.
Have you ever used a feeler gauge?

kneisl1 · July 2006

OK the engine is cold. The plastic and metal valve covers are off. The sparkplug connector/ignition coils are removed. (each one is held in place with a 10mm bolt which had to be removed) The sparkplugs are out. You have plugged the sparkplug holes with a rag or similiar.
The 16 valves are in two parallel rows of eight. They run fron left to right across the sideways mounted engine. The front row of eight are the intakes valves. The rear row of eight are the exhaust valves. We're looking at the exhaust valves first.
Get out the .010 inch feeler gauge blade. Now look at the cam which is above each valve. They are in pairs. Each pair of cams operates a pair of valves. To check the valves, the cams must point upwards. Doesnt have to be perfectly straight up. Turn the engine clockwise until the first valves you want to check has their cams pointing up. Slide the 010 blade under the cam between the bottom of the cam and the cam follower. Check all of the exhaust valves in the same way. Check off each valve as you do it on a piece of paper. I sometimes mark the valve with a black magic marker.
Did the 010 blade fit under all the cams? Good you're ready for the next step. If you couldnt get the 010 under even ONE of the cams STOP RIGHT THERE. The car has to go to Toyota for an adjustment. Its that simple.
If the 010 went under all of the cams, get out the 014. Its marked right on the blade. Try the 014 under all the exhaust valves. It either should not go at all, or br fairly tight. Put it this way, the 015 should NOT go in. If this is the result you get, youre finished with the exhaust valves. If however, if the 014 fit in any one of the valves, try successively thicker blade until you find one that wont go. Then try the next smaller. It should go in. Play around with the various blades until you find the clearance for the valve. Write the value you get down on a piece of paper. When all the exhaust valves are checked, your ready for the intakes.

kneisl1 · July 2006

The intake valves are the front row of eight valves. Each pair of valves has an identical pair of cams operating them. Youre going to check the intakes the same way you did the exhausts. This time start with the 006 blade. This is the minimun clearance. Turn the engine clockwise using the belt or the alternator pulley until one of the pair of cams points straight up. See that you can get the 006 blade between the bottom of the cam and the follwer beneath it. Youll have to turn the engine for each of the pair of intake valves until youve checked them all. If you find a valve where the 006 WONT go, try thinner and thinner blades until you find the one that does. Write down the value for that valve until you have done them all.
When you are finished with the 006, get out the 010. Try this under all the intake valves. This blade should either NOT go under the cam, or be very tight if it does. If it goes under the cam, try the next thicker blade until you find the one that WONT go. Try the next smaller blade. It should go. The value you are looking for is the blade that WILL fit under the cam, but the next thicker one WONT. Play around with the blades until you have a value for each valve. Write down the values for each valve thats out of spec so you can identify each one.

kneisl1 · July 2006

If the 010 blade was loose under all the exhaust valves. If the 014 was tight or didnt go at all under the exhausts. If the 006 went under all the intakes. If the 010 was tight or didnt go at all under the intakes. You have an engine whose valves are adjusted. This is what 90% of people checking this type of valve train find. The similiar valve train on my Honda ST1100 motorcycle had valves which stayed in adjustment until I sold the bike at 109,000 miles.
If on the other hand you find an exhaust valve(s) the 010 didnt fit under. An adjustment is required.
What happens if you found a valve just a little out of spec? Even a somewhat tight INTAKE valve is probably OK. If its 002 or less out of adjustment Id leave it alone. Thats 010-014 for exhaust valves and 006-010 for intakes. Its better the valve be LOOSE than TIGHT. But a little tight wont hurt intakes. A tight exhuast valve needs attention.
Its possible you found a valve with ZERO clearance. None of the feeler gauges, even the .001, would fit under it. Well this one needs to be adjusted even if its an intake but theres more. Youve found a significant wear in the cylinder head. As the valve wear and sink deeper into the heads, the clearance gets LESS. Valves with ZERO clearance are trouble. You probably want to do a compression check on that cylinder when the valve is adjusted. It might be time far a valve job.

inharmsway · July 2006

Even if I do not need a valve job right now, I must say how nice it of you kneisl1 to take the time to explain the work to us all. THANK YOU.
Niels

kneisl1 · July 2006

Thats no problem. If anyone actually wants to check the valve adjustment and has questions right in the middle of it just ask.

reba05 · August 2006

I know many of you on this page LOVE your Echo's, but honestly, the only good thing about this car is the gas mileage. I have had my '03 for 1.5 years and in the beginning it seemed fine and the reviews on it were great, which supported my purchase. But now, its sounds like it is going to fall apart. Every bump I hit causes cheap plastic rattling sounds inside, the back-end squeaks even after lubing it up (cannot figure out where it is coming from), there is a buzzing sound in the plastic piece that covers the spedometer area, if I put pressure on it it stops, but can't exactly do that when driving, the windows are getting less firm in the door so when they are open, they shake/rattle in the slot, and last but not least, the doors are so skinny that the speakers I installed are going to vibrate their way right on out of them. It is starting to become an embarrassment to drive. I suppose it is nothing major, however very annoying that such a new car, and a Toyota for that matter, seems so completely cheap.

I wonder if the new Yaris will eventually turn cheap as the years go on also, or if they have improved upon that...? Nevertheless, I will be moving on to a different vehicle soon.

Also, for those in winter climates, this car was awful to drive in snow, keep a shovel with you at all times.

kneisl1 · August 2006

My ECHO will be six years old this November 12. I was thinking the other day that it hardly seems to have aged at all. The paint is like new. The interior is still perfect. (even though I took out the rear and passenger seats several times) The only thing I have replaced are the windshield wipers.
Some things to be happy about:

1) Outstanding ergonometric design. Small on the outside BIG on the inside. Easier to get into and out of then my wifes 05 Camry.
2) Great storage pockets through the dash and doors of the car.
3) One of the most reliable cars made
4) Easily the most cost effective fuel efficient vehicle made. Youll pay $10000 more for a Prius which will save you $2000 in fuel over the life of the vehicle (compared to an ECHO). Im driving mine over 110 miles a week for $7.50 in gas. Thats @$3 a gallon. Wait till it hits $4 a gallon.
Heres an idea for some therapy. I saw a Kia Rio as old as my ECHO the other day. Not a pretty sight!
I agree 100% about the ECHO being poor in snow. Easily the WORST car I have ever owned in that respect. However I noticed in the Tire Rack Survery that the Potenza 92 tires that came standard on my ECHO are the WORST on the chart for performance in snow. I bought a set of four Kumho PowerStar 758s (for $29 a tire) which score very high on the chart. Im hoping thaey will remedy the problem.

nippononly · August 2006

I am not totally surprised at a complaint like reba's, given this car's low price point.

However, I have been pleasantly surprised in mine, which is a year older and almost certainly has more miles (coming up on 75K any day now), and certaily has none of those problems.

I also notice that reba purchased his/her car used as I did, which of course leads to that eternal question when not buying new: how did the first owner treat my car? Some of reba's complaints could be the result of hard use when new (loose windows, squeaky noisy back end). Cheaper cars are always more susceptible to give trouble later on when they get poorer care and/or harder use while young.

scjfan · August 2006

I also own a '03 Echo coupe with AT but bought it since new. Its dash makes little noise under certain temperature but very rarely. Otherwise, it is a very solid, reliable, fuel efficient car. The engine has seen 50k miles, and is still running very smoothly. The gas mileage keeps getting better. Now I get 47 mpg routinely in the summer, but as high as 50 mgp. I maintain it all by myself. Replace air filter every 15k miles, PCV every 12k miles. All Toyota OEM parts. Clean TB/IAC/MAF every 2k miles. Use Techron in the gas tank every 2k miles to clean the fuel system. Install Frantz TP (Toilet Paper) bypass filters for oil and ATF. Change oil TP every 3k miles with 1 quart of makeup oil, ATF TP every 5k miles with 1 quart of makeup ATF, so, my Echo always runs with clean oil/ATF. I use Mobil 1 5W30 synthetic oil, and Toyota Type IV ATF exclusively. Use engine block heater and transaxle pan heater in the winter to reduece powertrain wear. Next week I will install a pre-luber to further reduce engine wear from cold start. I am still running the original spark plugs, brake pads/shoes, and tires. I pamper my Echo, and never drive it hard. Echo is a real gem which is easy/cheap to maintain/operate. It never let me down.

reba05 - It does not matter what car you buy in the future. You will always have something to complain about the car if you abuse it by driving hard and not upkeeping the maintenance. Even a car with built-in reliability requires proper maintenance. Toyota cars are no exceptions. I would not buy a used Toyota car because its owner(s) tends to skip maintenance and runs it to the ground.

reba05 · August 2006

Thanks for the advice but I do take very good care of my vehicles and stick to a strict maintenance schedule, however mine was a former rental car, so you could have a point with the "used" factor.
But I do feel its a pretty cheaply made car and wish I would have paid more attention to that when I purchased it.

tncarman · August 2006

i saw a Toyota Echo Hatchback today on the show Pysch. I was wondering, how? This car is only sold or was only sold in Canada, so how is this in a show in Santa Barbara, CA? Am I wrong? I know I'm not crazy.

nippononly · August 2006

at the mall tonight - went in to see a movie, came out to find not one but TWO other silver Echos parked right next to mine, all of them pre-'03s so all with the identical body styles. Mine was the only manual of course.

It was kinda cute to see them all gathered together there! I wondered whether their owners parked next to mine on purpose or if it was just the best parking spot available when they arrived. Now that I own one of these cars, I am noticing that they are everywhere around here. Knowing the sales figures as I do, they must have sold most of the Echos on the coasts, for there to be so many of them in the San Francisco area.

I was on the freeway next to one yesterday, driven by the oldest woman I have ever seen driving a car. Well, she saw my car and turned and gave me a broad wink! Most Echo drivers I see seem pretty happy with their cars. They say the gas prices are about to spike up again for a while - can't beat the Echo's gas frugality in these times of high prices. :-)

kneisl1 · August 2006

Ive heard of hatchback ECHOs from Canada showing up on US car lots on the American side of the border. Perhaps this one migrated all the way to CA! Also, its possible the producers of the show wanted a distinctive vehicle and an ECHO hatch is certainly that.
Its pretty rare I even see an ECHO on the road let alone two at the same time! Im old enough to recall VW Beetle owners waving enthusiastically to each other and did it a lot myself. I can only recall one return wave from another ECHO owner however.
Yes the cheese is about to get binding with the gas situation. Why manufacturers were allowed to sell six and eight cylinder cars given our dependence on foreign oil is hard to understand. This "let the market decide" approach might end up burning a lot of people and our economy to boot.

nippononly · August 2006

I just discovered there is another one in my own complex! I had never notced before - the complex is pretty large, with part of the parking in the back which is where this person parks.

So I have a fellow Echo owner living right next to me! Not only that, but his/hers is a really good-looking dark green - I wish that was the color of mine. Mine is silver of course, which it seems about 80% of them were, with the other 19% being white and 1% the very rare red. They should have made more of the green - it is a really good color on this car.

kneisl1 · August 2006

Yes the green is nice. But so is almost everything else but white! Ive seen them in a beautiful dark blue and of course theres SeaFoam Blue. An ECHO looks sharp in black, if you like a black car. Red is good. About the only thing I truely WOULD NOT buy even an ECHO in is white. Unfortunately When I bought mine new about the only thing you could get in less than six months was silver. But the car I learned to drive in was silver and my Mercedes was silver with a black interior.

nippononly · August 2006

it's not that I MIND silver, it's just that many of the last decade's worth of cars I have had have been silver. I vow the next one will definitely be a change!

In the meantime, I would love to see either of those blues you mentioned, as even with all the Echos I see regularly around here, none have ever been blue. I don't particularly like Toyota's seafoam blue (presuming it is approximately the same color as the one of the same name on the Prius), but I bet this car would look gorgeous in a dark blue.

I am waffling on the next purchase, what with interest rates going up and all. I may just end up keeping this Echo longer than the couple of years I originally intended. Seven months in, I still miss having a tach, so my next car will not be a Yaris, as the tach is still absent in the liftback. If I go with a Fit, that is spending more money than I already spent on this car, so I might just take out a much smaller loan to mod this car some - the 14" rims have to go once these tires are used up, to be replaced by 15" alloys and slightly wider tires, and I would like to find a rear sway bar and perhaps lower it a little and change out the shocks as well.

This car has the awesome advantage of the lowest curb weight of any passenger car on the roads today, which makes it peppy and agile. But the suspension is a TOTAL letdown, unnecessarily I feel. For a few hundred bucks of cost, Toyota could have given this model a proper economy-car suspension like the Corolla's, so it didn't just keel over in any hard turn. At first I thought that the body roll matched the chassis response to turns, but it doesn't AT ALL. The tires never lose traction even in very spirited driving, and the steering follows the driver's commands quickly and accurately, but if you want to drive it fast and fun, you have to settle for gradually becoming sea-sick. :-(

Anyway, for now I am putting off these decisions until it needs tires, which is probably two years out. Maybe by then new car fever will have overwhelmed me! If not, I will look into some of these upgrades.

PS Just got Sirius satellite radio as a gift, so cruising around in the Echo has become even more fun! :-)

kneisl1 · August 2006

If gas really goes to $4 a gallon like they're saying, the ECHO looks better and better. A big plus is I doubt you will find a more reliable vehicle for any money either. A Sirius radio is just the icing on the cake! Sweet! Thats got to cover for a lot of the handling shortcomings. (what am I talking about I dont really believe my ECHO is any slouch in that department)
I myself have succumbed to the "New" car bug however. Having had to sell my mc I went out and bought a 1999 Miata today for $7500. 28k miles, female owner, pretty much new condition. There a lot of deep scratches on the bumper and some on the rear deck and the top has a tear in it but over all pretty nice.

nippononly · August 2006

the nicest thing you could say about the Echo's suspension is that it is set up to be suuuuuper-comfy, which it is. But as a result the handling is as bad as a base-model Camry. Which it shouldn't be, given the much smaller size and lower weight of the Echo.

I want a bit more of a balance between sport and comfort, so I am willing to give up a little comfort to achieve it.

scjfan · August 2006

It is very easy to install an aftermarket tachometer to your Echo. I bought an Autometer tachometer off eBay and installed it myself.

nippononly · August 2006

Where did you put it? Does it mount to the A-pillar? I don't want anything on the dash, preferably. And there's no other handy spot.

When I think about getting one that mounts on the A-pillar, I get all hung up on how it might look silly - sort of like I was trying to be "Fast and Furious" in an Echo! :-/

Which is strictly a personal hang-up, BTW, in case yours is mounted there.

I also don't want anything in the car that is going to squeak against other plastic surfaces, or rattle. I just hate that. Which leaves me in a pickle as far as getting an aftermarket tach.

I kinda wish it was possible to install the whole IP from the xA - it would be $$ I am sure, but I bet it would fit right in. And I like the look, and hey! The xA has a tach! Alternatively, it would be cool if it were possible to retrofit the IP from the '03+ Echo, which had a tach also.

scjfan · August 2006

I bought an new "old model" Autometer tachometer for $24 including shipping from eBay. It did not come with a stand, so, I tied it using several plastic ties behind the steering wheel. Green wire goes to the lower left socket of OBDII connector. Red wire goes to 12V source with a 4A fuse in between. Black wire goes to negative or ground. White wire goes to dimmer switch.

I installed 4 gauges on the A pillar by myself: oil temp, oil pressure, coolant temp, and transmission temp. There is nothing silly about mounting gauges on A pillar. I prefer functionality over prettiness. The blue light goes off at 140F. Radiator fan kicks in at 212F. If your radiator fan does not kick in at 212F, your cooling system needs to be checked. Oil temp stays at 181F, and transmission temp at 140F during crusing on a 76F day. It takes about 15 minutes of driving for oil temp to register at 140, and about 30 minutes for transmission temp at 120F on a 76F day. Short trips are definitely not good for the engine since the oil is not even heated up enough to burn off excessive fuel in the oil. Excessive fuel in the old during start up dilutes the oil and increases engine wear.

kneisl1 · August 2006

Great post! Its a little depressing for me because I almost never drive the car for any longer than it takes to get to work, about 20 minutes away. Even in the winter. Excess fuel in the oil should not be a problem however. With a carburated car yes but with fuel injection the engine always gets exactly the fuel it needs, no more no less. Its even OK to let a FI engine idle. It wont hurt it (except for it taking longer to warm up!) because with FI the engine wont run rich.
Whats an A Post anyway?

tsnook · August 2006

I was caught off guard last night when I noticed that the left light on my instrument panel went out. (134K Mi) I figured it was a LED that would last forever, but I guess not. The right light still works so I can see the gas guage and the speedometer, which gets dimmer as you move left. I don't plan on doing anything about it though, since the only thing that's not lit is the oval, which has backlit symbols anyway. I just hope the other one doesn't go out.

Also, I'm taking a trip south to San Francisco, and I'm hoping to get better gas mileage then I did last time. When I drove to sacramento I only got 33 MPG at 80 mph with the ac on, which I was a little disapointed with. I'm going to try to keep it around 75 this time get a little better gas mileage. Two things:
1) What PSI do you suggest I inflate my tires to?
2) Any advice for driving in SF with a 5-speed?

kneisl1 · August 2006

It pretty easy to get the instrument cluster out. I imagine you can get the bulbs out pretty easy from there once its out. Ill look in the service manual tonite if you want.
I keep my ties at 32 psi which is what the manual says.

nippononly · August 2006

Unless you are an ace veteran with the clutch, avoid the steepest hills like driving up Nob Hill from Chinatown, and up across Pacific Heights. If you do drive there, don't feel bad about using the hand brake to get started from a stop on the steepest parts - you will roll back VERY QUICKLY if you try to do a normal take-off with a quick move from the foot brake to the gas, and you can break traction trying to do it - I have seen countless people do it.

kneisl1: the A pillar is the plastic divider between your driver's side window and the front windshield. Lots of folks mount gauge packs there, as scjfan has. I like the idea of having oil pressure and temp gauges as well as volts - I wouldn't mind getting a 3-pack of those and mounting it below the bottom of the center stack, removing the ashtray I don't use anyway.

As for a tach, I was considering scj's words this morning as I came in to work. Behind the steering wheel probably would be a good spot to put it - I was kinda checking it out to see how it would mount. I dunno. Call me crazy, but I may just ask the dealer how much it would cost to retrofit the stock unit from the '03 in there, and I might even do it if it's not outrageously expensive - I prefer the stock look inside the car, you know?

kneisl1 · August 2006

Besides youd be giving up the benefits of the center mounted speedo!

nippononly · August 2006

Well, it would be kind of like the Mini which has exactly the same arrangement: big (BIG!) speedo in the center, small tach behind the steering wheel. It would be acceptable to me as long as it was fully visible through the top part of the steering wheel. But I would rather the manufacturer IP have a tach, DARN Toyota on this one!

scjfan · August 2006

I am not sure I will agree that no extra fuel present in the oil with fuel injected engines during star up. Besides, water from condensation is also present in the oil. You really need to heat up the oil to burn off water to prevent engine corrosion unless you want to install a toilet paper oil bypass filter like I did to aborb the water. BTW, toilet paper can not absort fuel.

kneisl1 · August 2006

Your right about the water. That will be interesting to see the long term effects because I almost never run the engine long enough to boil off the water. At least I dont think I do. Muffler is six years old with that treatment so far so good.
Im right about the fuel. Assuming of course Fi is working right. You WOULD get increased carbon buildup, assuming a cold start. Once the engine is warm idleing wont hurt anything from a fuel contamination standpoint.

scjfan · August 2006

I would suggest the use of OEM engine block heater with the additions of heat pads for oil and transaxle pans in the winter. This will cut down the time of rich fuel/air mixture to reduce carbon buildup. In 40sF use the block heater for 30 minutes, and in 30sF for 1 hour is sufficient.

The automatic transmission will be greatly benefitted with warm ATF in the winter. I was incorrect in my earlier post abbout the ATF temp. It actually takes 30 minutes of driving on a 76F day for the ATF to reach 100F instead of 120F. I measure the ATF temp after ATF exiting the OEM cooler built inside the radiator. Since I installed the temp gauge this spring, I do not know how high the ATF temp could reach in winter. But, when I touched the canister of my ATF bypass filter several times after 35-mile drive to work in winter, it felt warm and never hot. I think the OEM ATF cooler is working too well.

I replace the toilet paper (TP) of my oil bypass filter every 3k miles, and notice the used TP is dirtier (blacker in color) in winter than in summer. For those using dino oil I would recommend changing oil every 3k miles in winter to reduce water/carbon buildup in the oil and engine.

To further reduce carbon buildup I would recommend putting a 12 oz of Techron in the fuel tank every 3k miles, and then changing the oil. For those who are more adventurous try a 32 oz bottle of MMO in the gas tank once a year followed by an oil change.

kneisl1 · August 2006

Filled up today after driving 293 miles over three weeks. It took 6.9 gallons of gas to fill the tank ($20) This works out to 42.46 mpg. 220 of those miles were trips involving distances of less than 7 miles of stop and go at a time, while the remaining miles were pretty much non stop freeway travel at 65 mph.
Gee if Scjfan is right about cold weather affecting automatic transmissions then people who drive n places like South Dakota must have drastically reduced transmission life.

tsnook · August 2006

I was surprised to see when I turned on my lights that the second instrument panel light came back on. Maybe it's a loose bulb? I ended up only getting 34MPG with 90% AC usage on my SF trip. I didn't really stick to my 75 MPH plan though. I wonder how much, if any, the high mileage on my echo might affect gas mileage. I read about the 3 cylinder Geo Metros from the 90's that got decreased gas mileage as they got more miles on them. I hope that doesn't happen.

kneisl1 · August 2006

I would say you definately are not getting the mileage from your ECHO that others are. Finding out why will take some effort on your part. Its possible its your personal driving style. (although I doubt it) You arent lugging around 500 pounds in your ECHO for instance? At what point are you shifting gears speed wise?
After that there are some mechanical possibilities. Are your sparkplugs and air filter in good shape? Are you looking after your tire pressure? You havnt installed wider/larger tires and rims have you? Do you have a seized brake drum/caliper? Have you done a compression test/leakdown teat on the engine to determine its state of health? Are you using gas from cheapo gas stations? How is your wheel alignment?
Im thinking of more.

kneisl1 · August 2006

Well another thought occured to me about why your car might not be getting all the mileage it could be. The engine in your ECHO is a VTTi which stands for variable valve timing (with) intelligence. This means the engine LEARNS the owners way of driving and adjusts itself accordingly. I suspect your engine has learned soome bad habits, at least as thery relate to mileage. So, are you a lead foot? Do you wring the living #$A%^ out of your engine? If so its possible your engine has said to itself "OK this guy wants maximum performance, so thats what hes going to get!" Of course, this comes at the expense of fuel economy. When I drive In MY ECHO I almost never exceed 45 mph. I cruise around the neighborhood in 4th at 25 mph. I shift into 5th at 35 mph. I drive as though the gas pedal is an egg shell that will break if I step on it too hard. I accelerate as SLOWLY as I possibly can. I also slow down for traffic lights when red so they will turn green by the time I get there.
Id be willing to bet you can train your ECHO to get better mileage. I thought of this because I just bought a Mazada Miata. I was suprised how much difference in performance there is between the ECHO and the Miata, and the engines are only like 25 hp apart. And the ECHO has VTT which the Mazda doesnt. I think the "i" part of the VTTi might be the reason.

hopeful4echo · August 2006

My wife really, really wants a Toyota Echo.

I really, really don't want to become a widower if she gets in an accident with a Navigator.

So we've been looking for an Echo with ABS and side air-bags.

Supposedly these were available options, but we have yet to find one.

Do they really exist in the U.S., or this just a tailpipe dream?

Thanks!

nippononly · August 2006

My guess? Tailpipe dream. I never saw one on a dealer lot with those options, and I was looking from time to time. Perhaps if someone special ordered one, but that will be the needle in the proverbial haystack. :-(

But lots of Scion xAs have side airbags, and all of them have ABS. They have been around a couple of years now, and have the same powertrain and approximately the same price (when new) as the Echo. They also look similar to the Echo from the front, and are decently cute in ther own right. Perhaps you could look for one of those?

tsnook · August 2006

That's an interesting thought. I drive pretty modestly 90% of the time, but it really depends on what roads I'm on. I always try to keep my RPM's at a low when I'm not accelerating, but I'm no conservationist while accelerating either (a couple times a day).

I wonder how long a time frame we're talking about for the "learning" of the engine. I always assumed that if it did any learning, it was just adjusting based on a very short term basis, such as being in the city vs the highway.

I don't think I'm getting too much rolling resistance. I can put in the clutch in and roll extremely well - with the MPH not decreasing much at all.

I can get about 38MPG driving to school and back at ~40-50MPH with a few stops, (11 miles each way) it's just the freeway that really kills me. Do you know if outside temperature has an effect on gas mileage besides air-conditioner usage. It sounds like you're all in cooler climates than I am.

kneisl1 · August 2006

I would imagine high temperatures would if anything tend to increase your mileage because the car will take less time to warm up to operating temperatures. I would try to find out more how the VTTi works and the best way to program it. My ECHO is a veritable slug now perhaps because its been taught to be that way. (and Im not complaining one bit!)

geoseph · August 2006

Can you tell me the procedure required to remove the lens? i have a 2005 Echo and have a small piece popped out of it. I think it can be glued, but I need to remove the lens first

Thx

kneisl1 · August 2006

It been a while Since I did mine and the details are a little fuzzy. But as I recall the tail light is held on by nuts from the inside of the trunk. You have to get a little of the carpet out of the way to access the nuts. Ill look at mine and the service manual when I get home and fill in the details later.

kneisl1 · August 2006

Hmm either its not in the service manual at all or I just cant find it. (not unsusal) But you need to remove 2 0r 3 fasteners that hold the carpet to the area in back of the turnsignal. The lens itself is held on by four nuts I believe. It isnt hard to change. Its an excellent design which allows good sealing for the bulbs even if there is dammage/rust to the body.

Toyota Echo

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