Honda Civic 2005 and earlier

sek4mlk · November 2004

Intention was to replace all speakers. Started with the rear, but never got around to finishing the front. None of the factory speakers are a standard size so I suspect replacing the front door speakers will be at least as much "fun" as the rear speakers. Not sure why Honda can't use standard size factory speakers.

blueiedgod · November 2004

I would like to add CD capability to my 2001 Civic LX. Seems there are two options:

1. Retain current factory AM/FM/tape unit and add Honda single CD player ($120 from H and A).
2. Replace factory unit with aftermarket unit that incorporates CD player in head unit. I'd like to spend $200 or less.

Option 1 thoughts
- Seems to be cleaner cosmetically. Retains original styling.
- Satisfied w/ factory head unit (Majestic says made by Alpine). Ample power for my purposes and OK audio quality.
- Lose storage bin below head unit (never use)
- If head unit ever fails, costly to replace. Honda CD player only works with factory head unit.

Option 2 thoughts
- Requires adapter faceplate. Anyone used the adpater offered by Crutchfield?
- Perhaps better audio quality
- Added features (better display, satellite?)

Any comments appreciated. BTW, rear deck speakers have been replaced with Polk coaxials, front speakers are factory.

I would say go aftermarket. If you are a DIY kind of person and know a difference between a screwdriver and a wrench go with Crutchfield. Their price includes everything you would need to install a stereo, and it will be done better. Most shops cut corners by splicing the wires when they install new radio, which with time, if not soldered, will corrode and cause noise. Plus when you ready to sell the car, it will be harder to put the original radio back in. With Crutchfield, you get a face late adptor that slides right in, you get the wiring adaptor, so no splicing is needed. You get the instructions on how to do the swap. I have bough from them before, and I usually shop the "Scratch and dent" to get the best bang for the buck. Also, if you spend over $200 you get free shipping and I have a coupon that I can share that will take $20 off your first order. Right now their "scratch and dent" has a few top of the line Kenwoods, Pioneers and Clarions under or slightly above $200. So, if you were to get one for $200, you get free shipping and it would only cost you $180 with the coupon, no sales tax (unless you are in VA), and you won't need anything else to install it yourself.

sek4mlk · November 2004

Thanks for the advice. Agree completely regarding Crutchfield. Just installed an Aiwa head unit in my daughter's 94 Civic purchased from Crutchfield. Polks in my car are also from Crutchfield. They are indeed a first rate business. Doubtful I would consider purchasing from anyone else.

blueiedgod · November 2004

Thanks for the advice. Agree completely regarding Crutchfield. Just installed an Aiwa head unit in my daughter's 94 Civic purchased from Crutchfield. Polks in my car are also from Crutchfield. They are indeed a first rate business. Doubtful I would consider purchasing from anyone else.

Since you have installed radios before, it does not hurt to shop. Circuit city online has some good deals too. They had a Pioneer 4600 for $130 brand new, while crutchfield has it for $179 new and $152 "scratch and dent"

I have an AIWA in my car right now, and it just croaked. The radio works, but the ribbon that connected the motorized face to the unit itself chafed. Now the buttons don't respond, the screen reads out gibberish, luckily the remote still works. For the features at the price, AIWA was the best bang for the buck, but now I have to get a new radio or go back to stock and lose MP3/WMA capability. I am looking at Kenwoods, Pioneers and Clarions. Not so sure about JVC, I have a JVC camcorder, it has a hard time focusing in dim places. Although, it is 5 year old it is still fully functional and was one of the first Firewire camcorders out there in late 90's. That experience kind of turned me off JVC.
Pioneer has the strongest tuner (8 Dbf), but their frequency response is is limited to 50-20,000 Hz. XM ready. But it has a flimsy flip down face.
Kenwood has an good tuner (9.3 Dbf), and their frequency response is 15-20,000 Hz, (although human ear can not hear 15 Hz, but the body can FEEL it) but the price for the features is higher. And I don't like flimsy flip down faces. I like motorized or fixed faces. Sirius ready, but can be converted to XM.

Clarion has an OK tuner (10 Dbf), has a fixed removable face. The frequency response is good 20-20,000 Hz and is Sirius ready, but can not be converted to XM.

Good luck.

jaa37 · November 2004

On the 2004, the button you use for the trip odometer is also the gauge brightness adjuster -- just twist it.

ncampbell2002 · November 2004

I have an aftermarket Pioneer headunit in my 03 civic Ex. I actually have an entire system in there....(OZ vector 2 components in front, OZ 6x9 2 ways in back, MTX Thunder 8000 12 inch sub powered by a Directed amp). Its not the most powerful system in the world, but it will thump if you want. I am just a really big fan of quality sound and quality is what this setup produces. The tones are very rich and not raspy at all on all ranges. But anyhow you are just looking for a CD player, I would go with a Pioneer. You can get a good one for $200 that have many functions to tune the speakers you have to produce the optimal sound available from your speakers. The only downside I can think of with aftermarket is they are generally easy to steal. I'm not a car audio thief, but I can get my headunit out of the dash in less than 1 minute!

blueiedgod · November 2004

where is the world is the gauge to adjust my dashboard lights? I have a 2004 civic and my dashboard is extremely bright. In fact so bright that at night it appears that I have my headlamps on when I really don't.

I would complain to the dealer that you did not get an owner's manual. Did you?

darkskuld · November 2004

I am looking to buy a new honda civic and I got quoted 15,500 for a 2004 4D EX. I was wondering if that is a good price and if not how much do you think I should pay.

lovetosavegas · November 2004

Apparently there will be a new Civic at least for Europe next year.
Here is the latest spy shots:

http://www.autonews.ru/news/html/newsline/index.shtml?2004/11/17/- 57129

dcrow · November 2004

I owned my 2004 civic LX, current mileage around 4500miles. I watch my gas mileage carefully since I bought civic for its reputation as gas saver. But, it turned out I only get ~24 local and 33 in high way, much less than the stickers saying. Read other peoples's review, seems it is not a very common problem. Give extra air to tyre not improve it. Any suggestions??? What you guys getting if you can kindly offer this information. thanks.

steve6 · November 2004

Don't fret. I presume this an automatic? I have the exact same vehicle (albeit with less than 3,000 miles) and am getting the same. I will admit that 90 percent of my driving is the worst ... short trips, stop and go. When that's all it is, I will get 21-23. If I throw in a couple of freeway trips of any length, it will average out to 25 or 26. All freeway (which I have never done) would presumably be in the 30s. One thing I have noticed is that you have to be careful with the 4-speed auto. It *really* likes to downshift a lot, which just eats up gas. In heavy traffic, I have used D-3, which I think helps a bit. I have heard that things improve after the first oil change. There is "break-in" oil in it.

nine51 · November 2004

I think the Civic's gas mileage is very susceptible to the type of driving you are doing. I have an 04 EX coupe, 5 speed. I can get 40+ highway if I really keep the speeds below 65 and don't kick it too hard to accelerate. My daily commute is on an urban freeway and some interstate, about 40 miles/day with average speed around 65. My overall average mpg is 37.8. If I get into heavy traffic moving at 70+ and I try to keep up (so I don't get run down like a rabbit in the road) my mpg falls and I will only get 34 - 36 mpg. When I spend some time in the city, it falls to 32. My Civics mpg leveled out between 5 and 6K miles. Probably fully broken in by then. It has 15K on it now and it's pretty consistent average at 37.8 mpg. I think city driving with an automatic will also produce lower mpg because of torque converter slip on acceleration.

Cheer up, it's still better than most other cars would do in your driving situation.

ruking1 · November 2004

Well, for sure it behaves like virtually any other gasser, only the range of mpg numbers is probably better for each type of driving style (over other makes and models). The 2004 Honda Civic VP automatic that we have is too new to be stable, (2500 miles) but the new mpg's range is between 35-39 mpg. Given the same commute as a VW Jetta TD, 5 speed manual (diesel and Delvac One 5w40 synthetic oil), the fuel mileage was between 47-51 mpg.

The other thing that I will do, once the conventional oil oem factory fill (Honda oil 5w20)is due for a change is switch to a synthetic oil (Mobil One, 0w20). Since I have not used normal oil for a very long time (INXS of 660,000 miles), preliminary indications are I should gain anywhere from 1-3 mpg with this change. (anticipate then, 36-42 mpg, given the same conditions) If this is of interest, I can report progress as it occurs.

dgs · November 2004

I'm in the market for a new car and the Honda Civic EX 4 door sedan was on my list. I ended up special ordering a 2005 Ford Focus ZX5 SES model with manual transmission. I'm getting the car fully loaded with heated leather seats/mirrors, ABS, side airbags, moonroof, and traction control. The dealership is doing invoice minus $2,000 rebate which will bring the price to $16,700. The SES model already comes with stuff like 6-disc in-dash CD/MP3 player, duplicate audio controls on steering column, fog lamps, 16" wheels/tires, and a tilt + telescoping steering wheel. The Focus also has excellent handling, more horsepower and torque than the Civic (136 hp/133 tq), and the reliability has improved enough to put it on consumer reports best buy list.

After looking and test driving a Civic I fail to see how this car represents a good value at it's current price of $17,660 (with the side airbags). The warranty stinks, ABS is no longer even available, the radio is a single disc with poor sound and no MP3 capability, the wheels are skinny 15 inchers, the handling is poor, the hp and torque are weak (the Focus would spank it good in a stop light race), and the car is featureless (compared to the Focus). Plus, the two Honda dealerships I went to seem to think they are selling a BMW or something, they refused to come down more than a couple of hundred dollars off MSRP. I fail to see how the Civic represents any kind of good value, other than getting great gas milage and stellar reliability.

I found the Civic to be an utterly forgettable car, and left the dealership scratching my head as to why it sells so well. The only thing I could think of is that people who buy a Civic put reliability above everything else, because if not for reliability there are other cars in the class (like the Focus) that offer much more car for the money. Sorry if I offend anyone, just my opinion.

3c3 · November 2004

And I'm scratching my head why you're comparing Civic with Focus. You said yourself that Civic has great gas mileage and stellar reliability. These are two very important factors when I shop for a car. You're saying that you want a unreliable car that spends a lot of time in the shop? My 1992 Civic EX is at 175K miles and still going strong. Two other Civics in my family passed 175K-180K miles as well.

Civics are selling for around invoice minus holdback. If you're negotiating down from MSRP, you're not shopping the right way. ABS is standard on EX (the one you're using for comparison), so I don't know what you're talking about not being available.

Consumer Reports on reliability/satisfaction/depreciation/safety: Civic A/B/B/A, Focus C/D/F/B. Obviously your priorities are different from mine.

blueiedgod · November 2004

Hello Troll.

You obvously did not shop, or have no negotiating skills whatsoever.

First of all, no one negotiates down from MSRP. You negotiate up from your lowest acceptable monetary figure.

Second, if you wanted you could have gotten the Civic for what you paid in Focus. Just, remember that the $2000 rebate on your Focus just lowered your resale by $4000 in a year. Prime example, I have a 2002 Civic Si, my girlfriend has a 2002 Focus Se. Both manual, both have similar equipment (Si has sunroof, racing seats, fully electric steering, Focus does not). Si's trade in at 16,000 miles is about $12,000, retail $13,000. Focus' trade in is $8000 at most, retail $9000. I paid $500 less for my Civic than she did for her Focus. She got 0.0% APR, I got 1.9% APR. I will pay $700 in interest over 60 months. Overall, we paid the same price (with interest included) But, I have $2000 to $4000 more in resale than she does. Both cars are meticulously maintained and have no visual blemishes.

The Civic does have in-dash 6 CD changer with MP3, it is called Special Edition EX.

By the way, the optional engine on the Focus is 150 hp. Seems like you got every option, but the most important 150 HP engine.

Be happy with your Focus and stop trolling around Honda board.

dgs · November 2004

Wait a minute, I'm a troll because I come to the Civic forum and post a comment that is not gushing with love? Please...

First of all, I know exactly how car negotiation works pal. I did start at invoice and the best they said they would do on a 2005 Civic EX sedan with side airbags was a couple of hundred dollars off MSRP. Neither dealership was willing to sell me the car at invoice.

Second, am I supposed to be impressed by "fully electric steering?" I can't stand the artificial feel of electric systems. Neither the Si nor the regular Civic has anything on the Focus in terms of steering feel and control. Your electric system is far from a plus in my eyes.

Third, sure, I would never argue the Focus has better resale value than a Civic, I know it doesn't. But resale value should only matter if you plan on dumping the car before you've finished financing it. That is not a concern, this will be a car I own for the next five years, I could care less about what it's resale value is when I go to sell it in six years. Whatever I sell it for will be all profit at that point. I'm not one of these people who flips a car every two years, so resale value does not figure into my purchase decision at all.

Sorry if I don't know about a Civic "Special Edition Ex." Neither dealership mentioned anything about some special Civic. It was difficult enough finding a manual transmission civic with airbags. I'm sure "special" also means special pricing too. At $17,600 the Civic is already a bad deal, I couldn't see paying even more money to get stuff the Civic Ex should already come with.

Lastly, the optional engine only comes with the sedan body style. I need the functionallity of a hatchback so that wouldn't work for me. The model I'm getting already has plenty of hp and torque for every day driving, and compared to the Civic I test drove it felt like a Lamborghini. Sluglike is the best way I could descripe the Civic's acceleration, I was scared trying to get that car to merge into highway traffic during my test drive. Forget about the incessant road noise and racket from the engine, spinning at 4,000 rpms doing 80 mph. I fail to believe the Civic gets anywhere near it's claimed gas milage on the highway or city for that matter, considering how hard you have to wind the engine out just to get it to go anywhere. The Focus is rated at 25 city/35 hwy and I believe it actually achieves those numbers compared to the EPA figures for the Civic. At 80 mph the Focus is turning 3200 rpms.

I will be happy with my Focus, I'm counting the days until it arrives at the dealership. And please, drop the tired argument about Focus reliability. For every horror story about a Focus I can find one equally as bad with a Civic. My wife owns a 2000 Focus SE, you know the one with the supposed bad model year? Well, she's had 60K trouble free miles so far so please don't talk to me about reliability.

cptsesso · November 2004

Our 2004 4dr sdn, auto gets 37mpg hwy with a/c on or off. I travel the same 150 mile trip several times a week and check regularly.

sandman46 · November 2004

Alot of us small car owners read and sometimes post on other car forums, that's the beauty of Edmunds.com. We don't "troll", so please get over yourself and take a "chill pill"!
Everyone has, and is entitled to, an opinion and talking about our love for the automobile in an adult and intelligent dialoge is why we're all here on Edmunds afterall.
I think you owe Dgs an apology for your rude comment and let's keep the "personal" attacks outta here!!

The Sandman :-)

dgs · November 2004

Very kind sandman46. As you can see, I'm far from a troll. I test drove a Civic and I wanted to share my experience here. I'm sorry if I did not like the car but as you obviously understand, the conditions for posting are not that you post something that is positive. I'm not trying to stir up trouble.

He doesn't owe me any apology. Some people get very offended when they feel you are attacking the car they drive, they take it personally. You should be able to let that stuff roll off your shoulders. If you paid for it, and you like it, that's all that matters. I've already had a few people in my family say I'm nuts for purchasing a Focus, but guess what, I don't care what they say because it's my money, and I feel it offers the best mix of performance and features for the money.

isellhondas · November 2004

That's what counts.

I wouldn't have responded to your post but I feel compelled to since you touted the great "value" of a Focus so strongly. If you happen to like it better that's fine but it sure isn't a better "value".

You trivilize the horrific resale value of a Focus. I can't think of too many cars that depreciate faster. It's Total Cost of Ownership that determines value.

Only time will tell if their dismal reliability has improved.

Enjoy it! Everyone shold drive what THEY like!

imidazol97 · November 2004

"It's Total Cost of Ownership that determines value."

Some brand's dealers and such have loaded the maintenance up on what has to be done and mandatory visits to the dealers and the dealers intimidate people to do more than is really necessary. All this adds to the total cost of ownership.

ruking1 · November 2004

I don't know about other peoples factors in buying a Honda, but the resale value DEFINTELY was considered in mine. In one narrow sense it really doesn't make much of a difference, BUT if you ever hope or want to sell it down the road......

mthexuma · November 2004

I have a 2004 civic ex auto that I paid 16000 for. It does not cost 17600 like you say. Also, it is much better than the focus which feels like crap when you drive it. Everything rattles and shakes and the car is extemely sluggish. My civic can beat out most cars on the road and acheive great mileage.
Word of advice for the one who chooses the focus. My cousin bought one only to have the tranmssion blow after just 6 months of owning it. I got a good laugh out of that one since she laughed at me for wasting extra money on the civic. The only reason the focus sells is that Ford puts massive rebates on it. If they left it it's original price I doubt it would sell.
My civic is sturdy and at 80mph does about 3100 RPM's. It also cruises easily up to highway speed for merging and is great at passing on the highway. Best of all is the radio which I always have blasting.

Have fun with your Focus. I'm sure when the transmission blows up or the car falls apart for no apparant reason you might be able to donate the car and even then I'm not sure if they'll take it.

dudleyr · November 2004

Depreciation is based on retail price. If you pay less than retail your actual depreciation is lessened.

backy · November 2004

Even Honda has had its share of transmission problems. No need to get all haughty about the "superiority" of the Civic. There are those in auto-dom who think the Focus is a very good car wrt the Civic, e.g. the folks at CR who rate the Focus better overall than the Civic EX. So enjoy your Civic and let those who prefer other cars enjoy theirs.

dudleyr · November 2004

The Focus is a fine car and I think it handles better than the Civic and rides better as well. Reliability is now average or better. The Civic wins in attention to detail and refinement. The Focus does not even have rear headrests (a peave of mine).

I have only driven an EX civic, but it seemed very slow compared to my Integra (which has similar hp and weight). I think it is the peaky engine though. I think the LX may actually feel a little spunkier with better torque down low. I have not driven one lately though.

The Focus felt slower still, but I drove an automatic (the civic was a manual) so that is to be expected.

In fairness I did drive the Civic with 2 adults 3 small children and the A/C on at an altitude of about 3,500 ft.

spectraman · November 2004

Hey all!

Has anyone on this board (who's objective) driven both a new Civic and the new Kia Spectra EX? How do they compare?

I purchased one of the new 2004.5 Spectra EX's back in August and have absolutely loved it. The really positive article in the July issue of Car and Driver magazine caught my attention, and a month later I owned one!

From what I've read, gas mileage and resale value are pluses for the Civic, but in all the other area's I'm not so sure. I've looked at some Civics up close, and I'd put my Spectra up against them head-to-head from an appearance and functionality standpoint. Performance (acceleration-wise) is definitely not a problem with the new Spectra. NVH and ride quality is also among the best I've ever experienced... esp. in light of the lower-end nature of the car.

So... to reiterate... are there any Civic owners out there that have had a chance to compare the Civic to the new Spectra?

-SM

backy · November 2004

I'm a former Civic owner and I've driven the current Civic and the Spectra EX. I agree with your comments, except I would add in the Civic's favor that it has a better predicted reliability record than the Spectra (the new model has an unknown record, the old model's was terrible). Also I think the Civic's 5-speed is one of the best in the business, and the Spectra's was OK but not as good as the Civic's. Civic also has superior crash test ratings to the Spectra.

dgs · November 2004

Yes, I am a bit purturbed the Focus doesn't have rear headrests, but that is a minor irritation for me. I had to look at the whole picture, and when looking at the whole picture I had to ask myself what other car is going to give me these features for $16,700 (which includes the $2,000 rebate from Ford):

1. Leather seats
2. Heated leather seats
3. Heated mirrors
4. Tilt/telescoping steering wheel
5. Redundant audio and cruise controls on steering column
6. Fog lamps
7. 16 " wheels/tires
8. ABS
9. Side airbags
10. Moonroof
11. 6-disc in-dash CD/MP3 player
12. Multi-link independent rear suspension
13. Traction control

Some cars in the class have some of those features, but none have all of those features for the price I'm paying.

I'm not so sure about the attention to detail/refinement thing either. Have you sat in/driven a 2005 SES Focus? Ergonomics are perfect, and interior materials were just as good at the Civic EX I test drove. I found nothing about the inside of the Civic that made me feel like I was driving anything other than a cheap econobox, from the way the tiny doors sounded when you closed them, to the excessive wind and road noise that intrudes into the cabin. The Focus on the other hand feels very european and sturdy, and was a much quieter ride on the highway.

Bottom line, I feel like I'm getting a hell of a lot of car for the money in the Focus. Honda seems to be charging as much as they do because of their reputation only. If the Civic was sold by any other manufacture I think a lot of people would think it offers poor value for the money. Competitior are simply offering more car for the same or slightly higher price. The sub $20K econo class is becoming populated with companies like Ford, Mazda, Suzuki (the Reno was also on my list), and Kia to name a few, and they all offer more car for the money. Honda needs to step up to the plate and start offering more features for what they're charging, or else more people like myself will start defecting to the competition

dudleyr · November 2004

The thing about the Focus interior that bugs me the most are the gauges. They just look so shiny and cheap. Even my 1980 Scirocco had much better gauges (VDO). Gauges should be crisp, readable, and matt black (silver and white are trendy and less readable).

The rest of the interior is fine.

The best thing about the Focus is that it has a roomy and practical wagon version. I wish Honda brought over a wagon. Civic or Accord. Or even a Corolla or Camry wagon would be nice. And no Matrix, Highlander et all are not wagons, even though Toyota claims they fill that role. They are too heavy, tall, clumsy and inefficient.

Hopefully when the Civic goes upmarket they will offer a practical wagon version. I won't hold my breath though.

mauto · November 2004

The Civic has nowhere to go BUT "upmarket". When competitors like the Elantra offer leather and the Mazda 3 offer xenon headlights, the Civic seems to be stuck in the 90s. Other than slightly better fuel economy and high brand loyalty, the Civic has absolutely nothing to offer in terms of features and performance. It's about 5 years behind the times. Yes it's a nice car, but the rest are even nicer.

gogiboy · November 2004

As individuals we all have such different "wants" and "needs" with respect to our vehicle purchase. While my 1994 Civic EX 5 speed isn't the most glamorous or exciting ride it has proven itself to be amazingly reliable and trouble free in the 10 years I have owned it. Even better everything still works, the paint is still lustrous despite spending its entire life outdoors and I can always count on it to get me where want without fuss.

Thus, from my perspective, those attributes outweigh anything that a Ford Escort (or now, Focus) could/can offer. I could easily have bought a 1994 Escort for less (I even have relatives who work for the Ford Motor Co.), but I rarely see any early to mid-90s Escorts on the road; in fact, I rarely see any, period. Meanwhile there are dozens and dozens of similar Civics to mine in the college town I live in.

The fact that Ford offers more amenities for a given price point only reflects Ford's need to compensate for poor/average reliability, unconscionable number of recalls and significant depreciation compared to Honda and Toyota. Of course, I buy and hold while others may trade-in every two-three years, which might mitigate the importance of reliability and depreciation.

mauto · November 2004

"I rarely see any early to mid-90s Escorts on the road". You're not looking hard enough, I see plenty about.

The difference between the best and worst reliable cars TODAY isn't that much. The Civic has had numerous recalls too and the Accord just announced another one a few days ago. No one is immune to recalls and when you make over 1 million Focuses sold worldwide, that's going to happen. The 05 Focus is light years ahead of the 05 Civic in terms of features and performance. Where's the stability control on the Civic? In fact, where's ABS on the Civic LX? It's not even offered at a time when the competition offers side curtain airbags - nowhere to be found on any Civic.

gfedchak · November 2004

Why is "upmarket" better? Why are more "features" good?

It's interesting to note that the most expensive home audio equipment has the fewest bells and whistles. It's the lower-class, mass-market department store nasty stuff that has all the flashing lights, buttons, and other nonsense that so fascinates proles.

In other words, "upmarket" is a codeword for truly "downmarket."

Honda knows exactly and precisely what it's doing. It's appealing to those in higher demographic, educational, and economic categories by making its Civic an extremely clean, sophisticated, and aesthetically-pleasing device.

backy · November 2004

More features for the money = value. Value is good. Features like side air bags and ABS are much more than "flashing lights"--they are useful saftety features. Honda thinks so, too. Honda has already announced they will add side air bags, side curtains, and ABS to all Civics by 2006.

As for "appealing to those in higher demographic, educational, and economic categories"--unless you can back that statement up with facts, it sounds like elitist prattle to me.

imidazol97 · November 2004

" It's the lower-class, mass-market department store nasty stuff that has all the flashing lights, buttons, and other nonsense that so fascinates proles." LOL

sandman46 · November 2004

Where do some of these folks come up with this stuff? Truly amusing to read the last few posts.
I had a strong suspicion that Civics, Corollas, and other similar makes would have no choice but to add these so called "bells and whistles" as the buyimg public wants improved safety features. With the price of many new cars going up, it makes sense to offer more safety features so the increase in cost will be easier for the public to swallow.
And who can really argue with better safety features.

The Sandman :-)

mauto · November 2004

What's a "prole" ?

gogiboy · November 2004

"The difference between the best and worst reliable cars TODAY isn't that much. The Civic has had numerous recalls too and the Accord just announced another one a few days ago. No one is immune to recalls and when you make over 1 million Focuses sold worldwide, that's going to happen. The 05 Focus is light years ahead of the 05 Civic in terms of features and performance."

Really?! My 1994 Civic has had exactly 0 (ZERO) recalls in 10 years of being on the road. So yes, some cars are immune to recalls. I have been a faithful subscriber to Consumer Reports for over 10 year and there hasn't been one year where the Focus has come anywhere close to the Civic or Corolla or even the Protege based on reliability. Yes, CR ranks the Focus fairly high overall based on a broad group of attributes. Why don't you look at what owners are saying about both cars on carreview.com? You'll note that the Civic ranks considerably higher and just like CR it's actual owners writing the reviews. In my city of 60K, I've counted maybe 10 Escorts while there are literally dozens and dozens of similar vintage Civics--and this is a Ford/Chevy area. They simply don't hold up well. It doesn't matter to me if you have all the features in the world if they break after a couple of seasons or work intermittently or I have to spend hour in service for the 7th or 8th recall because of poor engineering/manufacturing.

Again I reiterate that buyers define "value" and "performance" differently. From my perspective you'd be much better off comparing the Focus to a Neon or Cavalier. Since you are espousing these views on a CIVIC chat group I can only conclude that you are deliberately attempting to provoke content Civic owners or justify your own purchase. I'm certain the majority of folks who come to this group do so to discuss Civics with the occasional reference to other similar models for comparison.

Wouldn't you be more successful sharing your views by preaching to the choir in a Focus chat group? I'm happy that you think the Focus is a better value. Perhaps you can convince enough weak-minded folks, who might otherwise get a Civic, to see the light and get a Focus. If so, I might get a better deal the next time I buy a Civic since Honda infrequently offers cheap financing and never offers rebates.

backy · November 2004

The '92-'95 Civic was a great car--I almost bought a '95 EX 4-door but got a Mercury Mystake because of its traction control and nice ride/handling instead--should have gotten the Civic. Anyway, look at the data on the current-gen Civic and you'll see many recalls. Since you follow CR, you know that their reliability ratings on the current Civic were only Average for awhile, but recently have improved to Above Average. That's a departure for Honda; we're used to seeing their reliability ratings at Way Above Average, and that's one big reason why people pay more for a Civic and other Hondas than the competition. With Civic's reliability slipping a bit in recent years and the competition doing better, the gap is narrowing.

The Civic is one of my favorite small cars, but IMO Honda needs to make major enhancements in the next generation to go back out front of the likes of Mazda/Ford and Hyundai/Kia, which today offer better cars or better values than the Civic.

gogiboy · November 2004

backy--

I agree with your contention that Honda needs to make some significant enhancements in the next generation.

I consulted the April car issue of CR. On pg. 77 the bar graph lists the reliability for the 03 Civic at somewhere between 45-50% above avg. for small cars. It is followed closely by the Toyota Corolla and Toyota Echo. Interestingly, the Hyundai Accent and Dodge Neon also rank marginally above avg. (5-10%). The Ford Focus--which Mauto insists has narrowed the reliability gap--is 5-10% BELOW avg. It still falls within CR's avg. category, while the Civic is at the top of the heap. Statistically, this would suggest that the Civic has remained significantly above the Focus--in reliability. In light of this info. I'm not convinced the Focus has narrowed the gap unless one considers the fact that the 00, and 01 were below avg. while the 02/03 are avg.

I'm not disputing your other claims and CR does like the Focus because it is "agile and fun to drive". They also say that reliability has improved (to avg.), which allows them to recommend it. Also on pg. 46 of the same issue CR notes that (based on consumer surveys) satisfaction is below avg. and depreciation is well below avg. Don't you think the advocates for the Focus on this TH chat group ought to note those shortcomings along with the better performance and amenities?

Again, we all define "value" differently and that was the original point I tried to make in my earlier posts. By the way, sorry about the Mystake. I rented one once--big MISTAKE.

backy · November 2004

I'm no big fan of the Focus, but I recognize it has improved since a dismal start five years ago. I still wouldn't buy one, as I think there are alternatives that fit my needs better for less money. The cars I think Honda needs to focus on (no pun intended) with the next-Gen Civic are the Mazda3 and Golf/Jetta on the upper end and the Spectra and next-gen Elantra (due in '06) at the lower end. While keeping pace with Toyota on the reliability front. I'd like to see the next Civic be the great small car, top in its class, that it was back in the '80s and early '90s.

gfedchak · November 2004

The facts are in "THE CLUSTERED WORLD: How We Live, What We Buy, and What It All Means About Who We Are," by Michael Weiss. But there are tons of other sources on demographics and buying habits. Studying who buys what is an industry all by itself.

Hondas - not just Civics - appeal to younger, better educated, and more affluent consumers, and they milk that image for all it's worth, because it's a prized one in marketing terms!

gfedchak · November 2004

It's a term used by Paul Fussell in his book "CLASS: A Guide Through the American Status System." In marketing terms it means a low-end consumer.

mauto · November 2004

Actually, Hondas appeal to an ever aging group, particularly the Civic. Younger people are now moving to brands like Scion, Subaru and Mazda.

In the early 90s, the Civic was the best small car, no argument there. But since then, Honda has stood still in producing innovative features for the Civic and has offered only a 2HP increase in its aging rubber timing belted engine since 1992. That's right, a 1992 Civic EX had 125HP and a 2005 Civic EX has a 127HP. Meanwhile, Mazda has come up with the "3", a car that makes the current Civic look positively old fashioned.

By the way, I drive a 2002 Civic now. It's a good car, but not particularly better than the 1994 Civic.

blueiedgod · November 2004

The Focus on the other hand feels very european and sturdy, and was a much quieter ride on the highway.

Ha ha ha, "European" handling is what killed Caddilac Catera, Infinity G20, is one thing that most americans don't want -- feel the road. Although Focus is a decent car, it is no where near the "European" handling. Unless Ford changed a few things from 2002, Focus can not handle corners without getting tail happy, which is fun in itself IN HANDS OF A SKILLED DRIVER.

You want to know what true "European Handling is like" drive a mid-90's BMW M3. The new BMW's destined for US have been "Americanized," although still better than other cars on the road.

Please remeber that Honda is still one of the few "stand alone" manufacturers that have not become a conglomerate. Of course it is remarkable that a small guy Honda can threaten the huge corporations like Ford (Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda, Jaguar, Volvo, Aston Martin, Landrover...) GM (Chevy, Buick, Olds, GMC, Subaru, Daewoo, Opel/Saturn, Caddilac, Holden, Saab...) and VW (VW, Audi, Porsche, Bently, Bugatti, Seat, Skoda...)

blueiedgod · November 2004

" It's the lower-class, mass-market department store nasty stuff that has all the flashing lights, buttons, and other nonsense that so fascinates proles." LOL

Lesson in socioeconomics, as I see it.

Laugh all you want, but it is true. The more flashing lights you add the more interested certain segment of the population becomes. There are people who know true value and people who think they know true value. Call it profiling or what not, but it works. Otherwise you would not have more gold jewlery displayed in certain parts of town than others. I swear there are more people wearing gold north of 125th street in NYC than midtown. You could drive by the PJ's and you will see not one but a few a Escalades with 24 inch gold plated rims, but you would be hard pressed to find one in Greenwich, CT (Although there is one or two). True value is to buy a house in Greenwich, CT. Perceived value is to live in the PJ's and drive a Caddilac with 24 inch gold plated rims.

When was the last time you saw a Wall street guy with a cellphone that has a flashing antenna light and fancy music? I haven't, but there are poeple in certain parts of town, who can not live without it.

How often do you see a person in nice car (Mercedes 500-600, BMW 7 series, Audi A8) blasting his radio to the point that car alarms go off? Not often, but the same Escalade with 24 inch rims, or a beat up 1980's econobox has that set up.

All of those describe true value and perceived value, you decide which is which.

Some people, similarly, place leather seats over resale. Leather seats have no appeal to me, sitting on a dead cow's hind is not something I dream about every day. Especially after having a car with leather, I would never come back to one. Too much work to keep your hind in the seat when driving "enthusiastically"

ABS, although is a safety item, can be had on a Civic. Adding ABS to LX would add $800 more to the sticker (if it were optional), and bring it closer to EX, so a person who truely values safety would get the EX ($1000 to $1500 over LX) bacause it has ABS.

I can go on, but it will probably get me banned from Edmunds.

imidazol97 · November 2004

"few "stand alone" manufacturers that have not become a conglomerate"

I see Hondas (Civics, Accord, Odyssey, Pilot), Acuras, Honda lawn mowers, Honda motorcyles, Honda home generators, and what else with the Honda name. What's your definition of a conflomerate?

backy · November 2004

Or if a person values safety, they'll wait another year or so and get even the low-end Civic, or the Honda Fit, with standard ABS, SABs, and SACs. Or they can buy another car now that offers ABS, SABs, and SACs even on their lowest-priced trim levels.

Honda Civic 2005 and earlier

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