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Honda Civic 2005 and earlier

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,355
    That's what counts.

    I wouldn't have responded to your post but I feel compelled to since you touted the great "value" of a Focus so strongly. If you happen to like it better that's fine but it sure isn't a better "value".

    You trivilize the horrific resale value of a Focus. I can't think of too many cars that depreciate faster. It's Total Cost of Ownership that determines value.

    Only time will tell if their dismal reliability has improved.

    Enjoy it! Everyone shold drive what THEY like!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 17,711
    "It's Total Cost of Ownership that determines value."

    Some brand's dealers and such have loaded the maintenance up on what has to be done and mandatory visits to the dealers and the dealers intimidate people to do more than is really necessary. All this adds to the total cost of ownership.

    This message has been approved.

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,490
    I don't know about other peoples factors in buying a Honda, but the resale value DEFINTELY was considered in mine. In one narrow sense it really doesn't make much of a difference, BUT if you ever hope or want to sell it down the road......
  • I have a 2004 civic ex auto that I paid 16000 for. It does not cost 17600 like you say. Also, it is much better than the focus which feels like crap when you drive it. Everything rattles and shakes and the car is extemely sluggish. My civic can beat out most cars on the road and acheive great mileage.
    Word of advice for the one who chooses the focus. My cousin bought one only to have the tranmssion blow after just 6 months of owning it. I got a good laugh out of that one since she laughed at me for wasting extra money on the civic. The only reason the focus sells is that Ford puts massive rebates on it. If they left it it's original price I doubt it would sell.
    My civic is sturdy and at 80mph does about 3100 RPM's. It also cruises easily up to highway speed for merging and is great at passing on the highway. Best of all is the radio which I always have blasting.

    Have fun with your Focus. I'm sure when the transmission blows up or the car falls apart for no apparant reason you might be able to donate the car and even then I'm not sure if they'll take it.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,407
    Depreciation is based on retail price. If you pay less than retail your actual depreciation is lessened.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    Even Honda has had its share of transmission problems. No need to get all haughty about the "superiority" of the Civic. There are those in auto-dom who think the Focus is a very good car wrt the Civic, e.g. the folks at CR who rate the Focus better overall than the Civic EX. So enjoy your Civic and let those who prefer other cars enjoy theirs.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,407
    The Focus is a fine car and I think it handles better than the Civic and rides better as well. Reliability is now average or better. The Civic wins in attention to detail and refinement. The Focus does not even have rear headrests (a peave of mine).

    I have only driven an EX civic, but it seemed very slow compared to my Integra (which has similar hp and weight). I think it is the peaky engine though. I think the LX may actually feel a little spunkier with better torque down low. I have not driven one lately though.

    The Focus felt slower still, but I drove an automatic (the civic was a manual) so that is to be expected.

    In fairness I did drive the Civic with 2 adults 3 small children and the A/C on at an altitude of about 3,500 ft.
  • Hey all!

    Has anyone on this board (who's objective) driven both a new Civic and the new Kia Spectra EX? How do they compare?

    I purchased one of the new 2004.5 Spectra EX's back in August and have absolutely loved it. The really positive article in the July issue of Car and Driver magazine caught my attention, and a month later I owned one!

    From what I've read, gas mileage and resale value are pluses for the Civic, but in all the other area's I'm not so sure. I've looked at some Civics up close, and I'd put my Spectra up against them head-to-head from an appearance and functionality standpoint. Performance (acceleration-wise) is definitely not a problem with the new Spectra. NVH and ride quality is also among the best I've ever experienced... esp. in light of the lower-end nature of the car.

    So... to reiterate... are there any Civic owners out there that have had a chance to compare the Civic to the new Spectra?

    -SM
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    I'm a former Civic owner and I've driven the current Civic and the Spectra EX. I agree with your comments, except I would add in the Civic's favor that it has a better predicted reliability record than the Spectra (the new model has an unknown record, the old model's was terrible). Also I think the Civic's 5-speed is one of the best in the business, and the Spectra's was OK but not as good as the Civic's. Civic also has superior crash test ratings to the Spectra.
  • dgsdgs Posts: 20
    Yes, I am a bit purturbed the Focus doesn't have rear headrests, but that is a minor irritation for me. I had to look at the whole picture, and when looking at the whole picture I had to ask myself what other car is going to give me these features for $16,700 (which includes the $2,000 rebate from Ford):

    1. Leather seats
    2. Heated leather seats
    3. Heated mirrors
    4. Tilt/telescoping steering wheel
    5. Redundant audio and cruise controls on steering column
    6. Fog lamps
    7. 16 " wheels/tires
    8. ABS
    9. Side airbags
    10. Moonroof
    11. 6-disc in-dash CD/MP3 player
    12. Multi-link independent rear suspension
    13. Traction control

    Some cars in the class have some of those features, but none have all of those features for the price I'm paying.

    I'm not so sure about the attention to detail/refinement thing either. Have you sat in/driven a 2005 SES Focus? Ergonomics are perfect, and interior materials were just as good at the Civic EX I test drove. I found nothing about the inside of the Civic that made me feel like I was driving anything other than a cheap econobox, from the way the tiny doors sounded when you closed them, to the excessive wind and road noise that intrudes into the cabin. The Focus on the other hand feels very european and sturdy, and was a much quieter ride on the highway.

    Bottom line, I feel like I'm getting a hell of a lot of car for the money in the Focus. Honda seems to be charging as much as they do because of their reputation only. If the Civic was sold by any other manufacture I think a lot of people would think it offers poor value for the money. Competitior are simply offering more car for the same or slightly higher price. The sub $20K econo class is becoming populated with companies like Ford, Mazda, Suzuki (the Reno was also on my list), and Kia to name a few, and they all offer more car for the money. Honda needs to step up to the plate and start offering more features for what they're charging, or else more people like myself will start defecting to the competition
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,407
    The thing about the Focus interior that bugs me the most are the gauges. They just look so shiny and cheap. Even my 1980 Scirocco had much better gauges (VDO). Gauges should be crisp, readable, and matt black (silver and white are trendy and less readable).

    The rest of the interior is fine.

    The best thing about the Focus is that it has a roomy and practical wagon version. I wish Honda brought over a wagon. Civic or Accord. Or even a Corolla or Camry wagon would be nice. And no Matrix, Highlander et all are not wagons, even though Toyota claims they fill that role. They are too heavy, tall, clumsy and inefficient.

    Hopefully when the Civic goes upmarket they will offer a practical wagon version. I won't hold my breath though.
  • mautomauto Posts: 75
    The Civic has nowhere to go BUT "upmarket". When competitors like the Elantra offer leather and the Mazda 3 offer xenon headlights, the Civic seems to be stuck in the 90s. Other than slightly better fuel economy and high brand loyalty, the Civic has absolutely nothing to offer in terms of features and performance. It's about 5 years behind the times. Yes it's a nice car, but the rest are even nicer.
  • gogiboygogiboy Posts: 732
    As individuals we all have such different "wants" and "needs" with respect to our vehicle purchase. While my 1994 Civic EX 5 speed isn't the most glamorous or exciting ride it has proven itself to be amazingly reliable and trouble free in the 10 years I have owned it. Even better everything still works, the paint is still lustrous despite spending its entire life outdoors and I can always count on it to get me where want without fuss.

    Thus, from my perspective, those attributes outweigh anything that a Ford Escort (or now, Focus) could/can offer. I could easily have bought a 1994 Escort for less (I even have relatives who work for the Ford Motor Co.), but I rarely see any early to mid-90s Escorts on the road; in fact, I rarely see any, period. Meanwhile there are dozens and dozens of similar Civics to mine in the college town I live in.

    The fact that Ford offers more amenities for a given price point only reflects Ford's need to compensate for poor/average reliability, unconscionable number of recalls and significant depreciation compared to Honda and Toyota. Of course, I buy and hold while others may trade-in every two-three years, which might mitigate the importance of reliability and depreciation.
  • mautomauto Posts: 75
    "I rarely see any early to mid-90s Escorts on the road". You're not looking hard enough, I see plenty about.

    The difference between the best and worst reliable cars TODAY isn't that much. The Civic has had numerous recalls too and the Accord just announced another one a few days ago. No one is immune to recalls and when you make over 1 million Focuses sold worldwide, that's going to happen. The 05 Focus is light years ahead of the 05 Civic in terms of features and performance. Where's the stability control on the Civic? In fact, where's ABS on the Civic LX? It's not even offered at a time when the competition offers side curtain airbags - nowhere to be found on any Civic.
  • Why is "upmarket" better? Why are more "features" good?

    It's interesting to note that the most expensive home audio equipment has the fewest bells and whistles. It's the lower-class, mass-market department store nasty stuff that has all the flashing lights, buttons, and other nonsense that so fascinates proles.

    In other words, "upmarket" is a codeword for truly "downmarket."

    Honda knows exactly and precisely what it's doing. It's appealing to those in higher demographic, educational, and economic categories by making its Civic an extremely clean, sophisticated, and aesthetically-pleasing device.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    More features for the money = value. Value is good. Features like side air bags and ABS are much more than "flashing lights"--they are useful saftety features. Honda thinks so, too. Honda has already announced they will add side air bags, side curtains, and ABS to all Civics by 2006.

    As for "appealing to those in higher demographic, educational, and economic categories"--unless you can back that statement up with facts, it sounds like elitist prattle to me.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 17,711
    " It's the lower-class, mass-market department store nasty stuff that has all the flashing lights, buttons, and other nonsense that so fascinates proles." LOL

    This message has been approved.

  • sandman46sandman46 Posts: 1,798
    Where do some of these folks come up with this stuff? Truly amusing to read the last few posts.
    I had a strong suspicion that Civics, Corollas, and other similar makes would have no choice but to add these so called "bells and whistles" as the buyimg public wants improved safety features. With the price of many new cars going up, it makes sense to offer more safety features so the increase in cost will be easier for the public to swallow.
    And who can really argue with better safety features.

    The Sandman :-)
  • mautomauto Posts: 75
    What's a "prole" ?
  • gogiboygogiboy Posts: 732
    "The difference between the best and worst reliable cars TODAY isn't that much. The Civic has had numerous recalls too and the Accord just announced another one a few days ago. No one is immune to recalls and when you make over 1 million Focuses sold worldwide, that's going to happen. The 05 Focus is light years ahead of the 05 Civic in terms of features and performance."

    Really?! My 1994 Civic has had exactly 0 (ZERO) recalls in 10 years of being on the road. So yes, some cars are immune to recalls. I have been a faithful subscriber to Consumer Reports for over 10 year and there hasn't been one year where the Focus has come anywhere close to the Civic or Corolla or even the Protege based on reliability. Yes, CR ranks the Focus fairly high overall based on a broad group of attributes. Why don't you look at what owners are saying about both cars on carreview.com? You'll note that the Civic ranks considerably higher and just like CR it's actual owners writing the reviews. In my city of 60K, I've counted maybe 10 Escorts while there are literally dozens and dozens of similar vintage Civics--and this is a Ford/Chevy area. They simply don't hold up well. It doesn't matter to me if you have all the features in the world if they break after a couple of seasons or work intermittently or I have to spend hour in service for the 7th or 8th recall because of poor engineering/manufacturing.

    Again I reiterate that buyers define "value" and "performance" differently. From my perspective you'd be much better off comparing the Focus to a Neon or Cavalier. Since you are espousing these views on a CIVIC chat group I can only conclude that you are deliberately attempting to provoke content Civic owners or justify your own purchase. I'm certain the majority of folks who come to this group do so to discuss Civics with the occasional reference to other similar models for comparison.

    Wouldn't you be more successful sharing your views by preaching to the choir in a Focus chat group? I'm happy that you think the Focus is a better value. Perhaps you can convince enough weak-minded folks, who might otherwise get a Civic, to see the light and get a Focus. If so, I might get a better deal the next time I buy a Civic since Honda infrequently offers cheap financing and never offers rebates.
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