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Comments
They give a little more meaning to it, IMO:)
So how is VW different? In my non-marketers view, it has a very positive image as a well built european vehicle that does not have to cost an arm and a leg. You don't have to be a doctor or a lawyer to own one and enjoy the engineering and driving dynamics of a well built car. Recently, probably starting with the B5 Passat design, they have also become stylish and trendy too. I think that's great. Vwguild keeps mentioning the cradle to grave concept, and I think that makes some sense. It presumes that some products will remain affordable to the average consumer like myself, while others become image leaders for those able and willing to spend alot more. An abandonment of the "lower end" of the market may be coming, but I'm not looking forward to it.
I also don't think an expensive Jetta is a possible substitute for someone looking for a base model Passat. I like the Jetta, but it is too small.
My Passat is a 2000 1.8T wagon. The only other car I considered seriously after a test drive was the Subaru Legacy wagon, either in the GT or Outback version. The Subaru may be better in snow than the Passat, but it is not nearly as pleasant to drive, and my personal experience is that the 1.8 Passat is more reliable. (Mine has 61K essentially trouble-free miles, and just passed a state inspection that included the pads and rotors. At the same mileage my 1994 Legacy had had the front-rear transmission clutches replaced under warranty, the oil and water pumps replaced at my expense and had gone through two sets of brake pads and a pair of front rotors.)
I would buy another Passat today if I were ready to replace this car. My understanding, though, is that the next generation Passat will not share the A4/A6 platform. If it turns out to be just a fancier Jetta, I would instead begin comparison shopping all over again.
The Passat 1.8 GLS is a bargain, providing amazing value for money. The same cannot be said of any Jetta currently sold in the United States. The Jetta wagon offers especially poor value when compared to the GLS 1.8 Passat wagon.
I just hope that VW, in it's upwardly mobile striving, does not go the way of the Volvo division of Ford, or the SAAB division of GM. Volvos used to be somewhat expensive, boxy-looking and reliable. Now they are very expensive, stylish and unreliable. SAABs now are little more than fancy Opels with the ignition switch on the floor, and this is about to worsen. The next generation of SAABs will not have a hatchback version. Can you believe that? IMO, this is the dumbest marketing move since Datsun became Nissan, and promptly lost a third of its customers in the United States.
One other thing -- I didn't mean to infer that the next generation Passat would be a Jetta derivative. markcincinatti's argument was that if the Passat became out of reach financially, consumers in a certain price bracket should be satisfied to buy an upmarket Jetta.
Do you (or anyone else on the board) know anything about the next generation Passat? If it will change to the Jetta platform and be built in Mexico I may want to order my Passat wagon now!
I really agree, I have never thought of VW's as "cheap" cars -- I am aware that they went through some quality issues when the manufacturing started in Mexico, but I believe Dr. Piech made "quality, Job 1" (or words to that effect).
I too, hope that there are, lower cost VW's on the market after 2005 -- the "grand scheme" of Piech's and his follow-on (sorry I won't attempt his name) seems to me to belie this, however. The grand scheme that I am referring to was in what ever month's issue of CAR magazine that was out about 5 or 6 weeks ago (perhaps the June issue?).
In the magazine, the conclusion that was drawn and that the reader could possibly draw was for VW to move up. I don't think this means the end to a Jetta, for example, I think it may mean that the Jetta will move up content and up price. In the US, at least, even the bottom of the model range will have its, content, quality and price increased steadily but relentlessly for at least the next 3 or 4 model years, when the transition of "differentiation" between VW and Audi will be much further along.
I am not saying LITERALLY that Jettas will be way way more expensive (although I think the term "expensive" is one of those relative terms, and therefore very subjective) but I do believe they will be considerably more costly to acquire than a bottom of the line one is today.
In the US, there is no Audi A3, no A4 with a powerplant less than a 1.8T -- and many luxo touches are standard. I rented an A4 with a 1.6 engine, stick shift and front only power windows (in Germany) the car was great but it had 0 - 100kph acceleration "same day." Here in the US, what we get as the bottom of the model line is actually much higher up from the true bottom of the line.
I suspect that, as I said, what we now call "GLX" trim levels will become, in effect, the entry level configurations for VW's (by calendar 2004, model year 2005). The price, therefore will not go up (in relative terms), it is just that model choices of a shall we say "lower cost" nature will no longer be brought to the US. The effect will be that the lowest cost Jetta of then (the future) will perhaps be closer to the highest cost Jetta of now.
Mercedes missed the mark with the 190, BMW ditto with the "baby bimmers" -- perhaps Piech was correct, it is harder to go downstream than up. I do not claim to know what will happen, I just claim to have read a ton of magazine articles and web columns and the like to have arrived at the conclusion that VW and Audi will be highly differentiated over the years (2 - 5) and that VW will be attempting to compete as 95% of Mercedes in content at 80% of the price. Hence the Phaeton will compete with Mercs that cost 25% more than it will cost. The Passat will compete with the Mercedes "C" class perhaps, or maybe they will move even further up to make the Passat be (in someone's mind) a real alternative to an E class.
Audi, too, will take a similar approach but will consider its rival to be BMW -- and Audi wants to be seen as a truly sporting luxury car -- VW and Audi, today, IMO, share too much for the NEW strategy to work, hence the temporary market overlap and -- for me -- confusion. I still think that a Passat W8 is a heck of a deal and when compared with an A4 or A6 MIGHT be attractive to some -- but not to those of us "in the know" by virtue of our participation on the Edmunds town hall.
So, David, I don't know if you think we are still in polite, friendly disagreement or not -- I find that I am pretty much in "violent agreement" with your POV.
BTW - the transmission on our Legacy fully self-destructed at 115K miles, a few months after it had been serviced and inspected by a Subaru dealer. Subaru says that there is no generic problem with its transmissions, and that the dealer's "inspection" I was charged for is not intended to verify that the transmission is fit for continued duty, just that it seemed to be working the day they serviced it. Sure.
George -- My transmission self destructed about 6 months and 10k miles after the dealer serviced it to replace a seal. I've always wondered whether Subaru transmissions are crap, or if the dealer did something. All I know is they gave me a great trade in deal for a car that was not in driving condition (acted a little guilty). There will be no Subarus in my future.
I, for the life of me, cannot utter the words Camry and Passat together as if they are competitors. I know every car is at some level a competitor of every other -- but I do not look at the Camry as a sporting family sedan. I do, however, see the Passat in that light.
Car and Driver television (Sundays on the TNN network) calls the new Camry a "fine appliance" that doesn't do much to stir the soul -- and they add, that's what most Camry buyers want.
As I recall, they were far more enthusastic about the Passat.
So while I suppose people do indeed shop for a Camry and a Passat ($ similarities) I cannot imagine one would ever confuse one for the other.
I put them in separate, unequal, compartments.
Told you I was almost certainly WRONG!
But they are competitors. Of the other cars I mentioned (Taurus, Impala, Accord, Altima), only the Altima has as much or more sport in the equation (actually more, from what I've read). But they do compete based on configuration, size, and price.
They seem like straight up guys... would they be pulling my leg? ;-) hehehe... Of course I have wanted to ask them about the thread on Edmunds regarding trouble shooting Subarus but I haven't the heart to ask... :-) Hmmmm why would there be a need for such a thread if those cars are so bulletproof? These Subaru owners defend their car of choice assiduously and readily call into question the Passat reliability issue with gusto. The knock on Subarus I have heard about is they blow seals...I've had my 2002 Passat wagon almost seven months without even the slightest malfunction...Knock on wood (walnut trim on my dash) LOL. Actually a few of the Subaru guys are ok :-)
What is owner experience with this car in the upper mileage range?
Dealership?
used car.
Dave ;^)
M
Other than that: WOW! What a steal! Replace those wheels/tires, option sat nav and perhaps sat radio -- keep the price under 40K (and of course bring the 6spd/sport edition SOON) and they should sell as many of these things as they can mint!
Oh, now but to drive one!
And -- the above comments pertaining to the 190 were dead on accurate. The Merc 190's were Merc's Cimmarons in my opinion.
Sports Pkg. was already cut in stone, and will add
about $1500.00 to MSRP, but you must subtract out the TipTronic at $1075, leaving about a $500 add..
Available around Christmas...
We had an opportunity on this past Tuesday to drive the W8, 330xi, G35, E320 Sport Wagon, and
the X-Type Jag...The W8 did more than hold it's
own, even with the stock wheels & tires.
--'rocco
Nothing like a tarted up Chevy that Cadillac tried to peddle. Other than rear-seat room it was all Benz.
M
I do love the car and drive it with passion, however I have had a Honda CRV for 3years, a Nisan xterra for two years, and a mazda 929 for five years and all three cars combined never gave me these annoying problems. I sincerely hope that this kind of unreliability does not continue as all the warranties in the world can not replace time lost waiting in service departments. I hope that these are isolated problems.
Although certainly not the only reason, when this first happened to me, then to my wife then to one of my co-workers (and his was on a Toyota) I now make certain I click the gas cap every time.
And,yes,Mercedes did share engines for decades. When the sedans were large and medium,that wasn't a problem. But the 190 was smaller than they'ed gone in many years. And I think it would have been a far more satisfying car with FWD.
Otherwise,it's fairly easy to modulate acceleration enough to avoid torque steer.
I own a RWD Catera and a FWD Passat-I think you should choose a car,not a drive system. And I love both my cars,and although very infrenquently the VW might seem a little "untidy" because of its FWD,what I notice every day is that compared to the Caddy it gets incredible fuel economy and has a back seat just about as hospitable.
So I feel that in every way the 190 completely has Benz DNA,and drives really great. I'm just saying I couldn't live with its tiny back seat.
While I agree that the 215/55 x 16 Continentals (EcoPlus . . . plus what?) are probably not the best tire choice for those in the W8 target market, I am not so sure about the wheels. My personal preference would have been something like 225 or 235 section, 50 aspect ratio tires. And on 17” rims.
But I can probably live with replacing the Contis with more aggressive rubber on my W8 – probably in a 225/50 x 16 size.
Wheel styling (in fact, most styling), OTOH, is such a highly subjective call that I think there is an excellent chance that whatever the factory chooses for the 17” Sport wheels, many would not choose. And the stock wheels actually fit well with the ‘stealth’ aspect of my W8. I am not interested in anything that would potentially draw unwanted attention (say, from the local or state speed limit enforcement battalions) to my car. I prefer to drive a Q-Ship.
And - I find it MOST interesting that the W8 tested by (BBC) Top Gear in their April 2002 issue had what appear to be identically styled wheels, except in size 17 X 7.5. I wonder if these will end up being the US Sport wheels?
Cheers,
- Ray
Who is now about two thirds of the way through the break-in period – and struggling to decide between Michelin and Dunlop tires . . .
Dear David,
Thank you for contacting the Volkswagen website. Volkswagen does recommend
using premium fuel, which is 91 octane or higher in the 1.8T and VR6, V6
engines to receive the best performance out of your vehicle. However, the
vehicles are produced with engine knock sensors, which allow fuel
flexibility, therefore, it is not harmful or detrimental to the engine if
you were to use a lower grade fuel. But you will receive less performance
out of your vehicle, for example, you may lose mpg and overall performance
may be less.
Thank you again for your submission. Have a nice day!
Anett
Volktalk
Take a FWD Passat (mine's a 2000 1.8T wagon with Tip)and find a stretch of straight road with no other vehicles alongside. Slow down to a steady 20-30 mph, take your hands off the steering wheel and push the gas pedal to the floor. The passat will accelerate without the least bit of torque steer, wobbling or straying from where it was pointed when you hit the gas.
If VW can manage equal-length drive axles and good engineering design at the Passat's price level, why can't all those other guys?
Anyway......
I paid a private owner $8,150 for it and he was looking to get $9,500. The car is clean as a whistle inside and out.
I took it right to the shop for new rotors and pads in the front. You could feel the shimmy in the car when you stepped on the brakes. It seemed like you really had to push hard to completely stop. Although the pads were new, it still had the symptoms of bad rotors. When I took it to my mechanic (before I bought it), he confirmed that the rotors were indeed bad. The owner drove it like that for a month and he said he got used to it. I wasn't comfortable with the way it felt.
I have been hearing that you can not grind down the VW rotors and that it's wise to replace them each time you replace the pads. Does anyone know if that's true? Should I expect to pay $300-$400 every time my front pads wear out?
Thanks
M
2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav
Since this totally agrees with my assesment, well I can only say I feel vindicated, but seriously, this car right now would make me forget about any other Passat -- it is so much more car for so little more money. (relatively)
Note in the article the part about the push upmarket.
My experience with VW has been that they are fun cars but cost a lot to repair. I had a 1984 Vanagon that produced many high repair bills several in excess of $1000 - like $500 headgaskets plus labor. I had real second thoughts about the new Passat but it sucked me in with one drive. The problem that I fear long term is the cost of parts. I know from a friend who worked at VWOA that the company started gouging us on parts to make up for slow sales. Now sales are up but the parts are still some of the most expensive to replace of any car. Anyone hear of any initiative by VW to address this issue. Do you believe that long term (beyond 100K), a VW will be much more expensive to maintain and repair then say a good japanese or american car?