Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

luvmytralblazr · February 2004

I just got my 2002 Trailblazer EXT back after the Service Mgr. at my dealership, and the GM Tech that was supposedly flown in, decided that the rattle must be coming from the engine and rather than waste time replacing it piece by piece, they replaced it with a brand new engine. The rattle is still there! 2 weeks ago I was told that my trailblazer is the only one having the problem. Now I'm told by GM customer assistance that it is a common problem with 2002 trailblazers and they will not fix it! They offered me a 75K mile warranty on the new engine only (which was obviously not the problem)and they will no longer look for what is causing the rattle. Anyone have any ideas as to what I can do now?

tblazed · February 2004

ficuss states: "I have been in the electronics field for 35 yrs. and have never heard of rush current being applied to a resistive load such as a bulb."

Quoted from "idec.com" (among many other sources, GE lighting, Osram-Sylvania,etc): "Inrush current (initial current through the filament) has an adverse effect on life expectancy. Cold resistance will have a more detrimental effect than hot resistance to inrush current. Life expectancy of incandescent lamps can be maximized by reducing occurrences of cold resistance to inrush current." Like I said... and the main reason why I don't like all the unnecessary automatic on-off business with the headlights.

above graph from Osram-Sylvania

"Describing normal battery drain as "parasitic drain" may be confusing to some"

That's how GM describes the normal drain in their technical papers, like Techlink and in the service manual. That is the accepted term.

tblazed · February 2004

Only problem doing that is, then the BRAKE light will stay on all the time and the chime will be going to remind you the brake is still on.

lancerfixer · February 2004

...please help me settle a bet with a coworker. Does the rear defroster on the Envoy also have elements on the rear side glass, or is that merely an embedded antenna? Thanks.

cameokid · February 2004

Interesting topic near and dear to me - in the recent cold snap I have also noticed my '03 TB straining to crank and did not think of the headlamps as a contributing factor.

I had problems with parasitic drain related to the ignition switch. They first replaced my ignition switch to fix a problem with the Service 4WD light coming on and disabling my 4WD. It was an elusive problem that would clear itself if I turned the ignition off then on again. I happened to be traveling and near a Chevy dealer when it happened again. While the light was on, they hooked up a diagnostic tool and commented there was no power getting to the 'rear grid'. A few days after they replaced my ignition switch, I started noticing the dash lights (gear indicators like P-R-D, etc) stayed illuminated even after the car was off and the key removed. I went on vacation for 10 days and came back to a TB dead as a doornail. So dead we had to push it out of the garage and jump it for 20 mins before it would even click when I turned the key.

They replaced the ignition switch a second time, told me the first one was installed incorrectly (done at another dealer). The look in their eyes told me I don't want to know what they really found inside my dashboard.

Meanwhile, I am wondering if the severe battery discharge incident caused damage to my battery and my less-than-robust cranking on these cold days as opposed to DRL load.

Your thoughts and opinions appreciated -

scottc454 · February 2004

It's really bad to completely drain a car battery.
That will take some life off of it.

How cold has it been?
If it's around 20 or so, I don't notice any difference in cranking. When it's 10 or less, the slow cranking is noticeable, but that is to be expected.

tblazed · February 2004

Car batteries don't like being deeply discharged. So, yes, you probably have a weakened battery. You might tell the dealer that it just doesn't start like it did, or that it hesitates to crank sometimes, and get 'em to give you a new battery. It's in warranty. Does yours have the built-in hydrometer "eye"? It should appear green if the state of charge is normal, in that cell anyway.

BTW did a search for "ignition switch" got two pages of old messages about various problems and switch replacements, so don't feel alone!

smokiejoe · February 2004

The Rear Window defogger is only in the Rear lift-up glass. It is powered by the two coiled wires connected to the rear glass.

There is no defogging capability on the side glass. You may see the On-star antenna, or other glass etchings.

This would apply for the 2002-2004 TB, Envoy, Bravada, as well as the earlier body styles 1995-2001, since I have both styles.

tblazed · February 2004

"Does the rear defroster on the Envoy also have elements on the rear side glass"?

'02 Envoys had an optional diversity antenna system, with antenna elements on the L & R rear side quarter windows. That's probably what you see. Also, there's no vertical mast antenna if it has the diversity antenna system. I think they did away with that option on the '03s.

ficuss · February 2004

One result of a goolge search for tungsten halogen bulb rush current

"Most of us have played around with halogen bulbs and found out that the only thing that really decreases life is over voltage and high G-forces."

tblazed, why would anyone describe a normal condition "normal drain" as a "parasitic drain". The two are not the same. As far as rush current is concerned, if the bulbs are designed to withstand the .004 second rush of higher current the first time they are turned on, they should last for the average expected life of the bulb. The .004 second of higher current is factored into the life expectancy rating. I have never seen a warning label on a bulb "caution, turning this bulb on will shorten its life expectancy". Every part in our cars will break sooner or later. Sooner if you use them , later if you don't. I once heard that the life expectancy of the average car driven an average of 50 mph. was only 2000 hours. I could not believe it until I did the math, 50 m/h x 2000 h = 100,000 miles. Most cars don't reach 100,000 miles.
BTW, are tungsten filament bulbs and Hologen bulbs considered the same for your graph?

01_hoe · February 2004

Origionally posted by rctennis3811
"The new Envoy Denalis will be unveiled next week at the Chicago auto show along with the Chevrolet Uplander, Pontiac Montana SV6, and the Buick LaCrosse."

Any pics available of the Denali Envoys available?

cnemie · February 2004

Check out the Edmunds front page and click the link for the Chicago auto show........they have the pics right now.

kpp14 · February 2004

Took an Acura MDX 2004 w tech package for a test drive today. Thought I would like it and it was my second choice in 2002. How can this MDX be called a luxury vehicle? It was slightly more money than my Envoy 2002 slt but certainly not as well appointed. Kind of plain looking to unless you get various add ons. Our trucks make a statement. The voice activated navigation system was pretty cool but failed to work properly on the demo. The touch control screen was also neat but it takes your eyes away from the road. The Envoy steering wheel controls for everything is much better. The third row seating is a joke unless your legs are 12 inches long. The second row offers the knee in the face as well. This is a front wheel drive jacked up sedan that transfers power to the rear when neededopposite from our triplets. Rear wheel feels better in the corners. Speaking of cornering. I took it for a rip through a large, snow packed, open parking lot to check out the under and over steer auto correction. The MDX applies the brakes and cuts the gas as it sees fit for those of us not paying attention. You couldnt power slide it or get any type of action if your life depended on it (or while filming a commercial with Led Zep cranked to the max) Think Ill stick to my grunty truck. On the positive side I found the engine some what comparable to our triplets.

My 2cents

tblazed · February 2004

ficuss says... "Most cars don't reach 100,000 miles."

You must be very hard on your vehicles! I had over 190,000 miles on my '68 GTO when I sold it. And about 140,000 on my '71 Chevelle when I sold it. My '88 S-10 has 98,000 miles on it, and still going fine, no problem. It is certainly going to "reach" well over 100,000 miles. What are you talking about??

"BTW, are tungsten filament bulbs and Hologen (sp) bulbs considered the same for your graph?"

It's not my graph, it's Sylvania's.
They all have tungsten filaments. The "halogen" is a gas added to allow the filament to burn hotter, put out more light and not evaporate the filament onto the inside of the quartz glass bulb.

ficuss · February 2004

Ed, I think if you were to look in the bone yards across this country, you would find most of the cars have expired well before 100,000 miles. Perhaps you keep your cars longer, but after so many miles they are way to expensive to keep up. It is much cheaper to buy new at that point.
My point was the figure of 2000 hours for a operating life of a car. If your car lasts 140,000 miles that comes out to 2800 hours.
You got me on the spelling of halogen. That was carelessness not ignorance.
I still think your belief that bulbs burn out quicker if used more often is short sighted. Halogen bulbs will burn out quicker due to surface contamination from hand oils rather from turning them on and off as designed. Vibration is another factor in bulb longevity. More vibraton, less life. How would you explain the longevity of radio tower bulbs. They flash on and off all night for years before burning out. Certainly they are exposed to rush current.
Your recommendation would hold true for HID headlights. They will burn out quicker if turned on and off often, especially if they are not allowed to cool off between cycles.

tblazed · February 2004

Inrush current is reduced by the wiring itself between the power source and the lamp, which acts to limit the current for that instant, so about 10X is the theoretical max. Also those tower bulbs are designed for that purpose, not for the whitest brightest light possible as with automotive headlights, but for continuous cycling. And, once the filaments heat up the resistance is going to be higher than it would be at ambient temp. Those filaments in the tower lights don't have time to cool down between cycles. Not too sure about your reason why halogens burn out from finger oil on the surface of the bulb. That will cause a hot spot and uneven strain in the quartz glass, causing the bulb and the filament to prematurely fail. But that's just carelessness. Most failed lamps I've seen, the filament simply goes open after so many hours.

Here's some GM reading material for those interested in battery "parasitic drain".

4-2002 Techlink Battery Parasitic Drain Issue

redline65 · February 2004

That's how my wife and I felt when we shopped the Pilot vs. our Envoy XL. Except with the Pilot you couldn't get sunroof, heated seats, or power passenger seat. The engine felt really weak too, like it revved high but didn't have any torque. The third row was a joke, my knees were almost straight up in the air! With the Envoy XL my knees don't even touch the back of the 2nd row seat. As much as I'd like to have the resale value of the Honda, the GMC just had so much more to offer.

tommc · February 2004

Been hearing about cooling fan noises on the TBs. Might unhook the fan belt for a minute and see if noise goes away?

ross1962_99 · February 2004

What's this? Does it get you more ethnic radio stations? :-)

quickdtoo · February 2004

"Might unhook the fan belt for a minute and see if noise goes away?"

This will cause a check light, at least. The fan clutch is managed by the pcm (computer), wouldn't recommend it.

2002slt · February 2004

A diversity antenna is used to get the best signal from a station. Have you ever sat at a stoplight and noticed the radio station came in better when you pulled up a few inches? The radio looks for the strongest RSSI (signal strength) and chooses the appropriate antenna to select.

ficuss · February 2004

mine automatically tunes to another station whenever it hears mega dittos . I can't figure out the problem. Any ideas?
Mind you, I'm not complaining. It's one of the few intelligent designs in the car.

brian211 · February 2004

I'm looking for a 4x4. Looking at all contenders. Trailblazer, envoy, ranier, explorer, 4runner, endeavor, pilot et al. I'm wondering why you decided on your vehicle and are you satisfied. I've never had a 4x4 before. Does it really perform better in wintry conditions to justify the extra costs associated with them over other 4x2s.

quickdtoo · February 2004

If you have wintry condtions regularly the 4x4 will be appreciated. The difference in 2wd and 4wd can be night and day for get going traction, not too much difference in stopping. Having a good set of winter tires can make or break the satisfaction though so choose wisely. As far as why I chose a TB, the answer is simple, the most value for the least cost, in Nov. 2001 anyway. That may have changed since. Tim

ficuss · February 2004

Are you looking for a 4x4 that is also a SUV or just a 4 x 4? If you need the size of a SUV then you are in the right ball park, otherwise, if you want a sportier car, I would look at the Infiniti G35x. It is a newer automatic awd car that combines sport with traction. I have the 2wd G35 and am very happy with it. My TB has been ok, but I doubt I would by another G.M. mid size SUV. Adding a Triplett SUV to your life may be the best or worst decision you can make, it's a coin toss. Look at the resale values of Tripletts vs. the others. It may be the deciding factor. G.M.s aggressive sales rebates and promo's have really hurt resale values. Take some time and read through the 13,000 or so posts here about the tripletts and you will get a feel of whats going on with G.M.

Good Luck

brian211 · February 2004

I live in nyc. Work 365 days a year. A day like today a 4x4 or all wheel drive would come in handy. Wouldn't need it for other 8 or nine months. So that's the question. If I decide for a 4x4 or all wheel, which one is best. Seems all have pros and cons. I've been told gms have electrical problems. Fords transmissions. Toyotas are too expensive. Honda pilots are expensive too. Mitsubishi has the endeavor which is nice, but am not sold on mitsubishi. Its very difficult to know what to do.

cameokid · February 2004

I will second a couple of prior comments:

quickdtoo said, "If you have wintry condtions regularly the 4x4 will be appreciated." Where do you live? Last year was our snowiest on record here in the Mid-Atlantic area, and with 4x4 I didn't skip a beat (because of snow, that is). My boss lives in FL last year got a 2x4 and now is relocating to PA and he is selling it to get a 4x4. Also, consider if you will ever want to go off-road. I've had some fun in deep sand on the Outer Banks of NC, and climbing a fairly steep hill on a washed-out abandoned dirt road in VA to find an old church/graveyard to do some genealogy research.

ficuss said, "My TB has been ok, but I doubt I would by another G.M. mid size SUV" Because of all of the quality problems I have had (2003 model year) I seriously considered a buyback and I will never buy another American-made automobile. I decided (at least for now) to keep my TB because they gave me an extended service plan and feature for feature, the TB does offer a lot more creature comforts for the price than the others. However, had I test driven a Nissan Xterra before I bought the TB I probably would have bought it because:
(1) My past positive experiences with the legendary Japanese engineering and manufacturing quality
(2) $6,000 less for top of the line model Xterra compared to my mid-level TB XT
(3) the difference between the two was not worth an extra $6K IMHO.

So, if you're a gambling man - go for the TB 4x4 with an extended warranty. It can be a nice vehicle - and it does offer a lot of value for the cost, that is, if you don't value your time.

cameokid · February 2004

I didn't think people who live in NYC bought cars...if you're working 365 days/year maybe you want to be snowed in once and awhile.
Get the 2x4 - it may just give you your life back!

cameokid · February 2004

GM recalls 1.8 million cars
February 6, 2004: 9:50 AM EST
DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp. said Friday it was recalling about 1.8 million cars to fix an electrical defect that can spark fires in the steering column.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/02/06/news/companies/gm_recall.reut/

GM Recalls 824,000 Cars to Fix Power Steering
January 12, 2004
http://consumeraffairs.com/news04/gm_recall.html

...and for those of you who have the pinging in your engines after startup...there's this:

GM Stealthily Buys Back Noisy Trucks, SUVs
November 26, 2003
General Motors has been quietly buying back dozens of full-sized pickup trucks and SUVs after consumer complaints about knocking noises from the engine, consumer lawyers said.

http://consumeraffairs.com/news03/gm_buyback.html

Lucky us...my spouse has a Tahoe...it's not pinging, but my TB does...

01_hoe · February 2004

what does this have to do with the triplets?

cameokid · February 2004

They're made by GM
like the cars in the articles, they have ignition switch problems - just haven't been recalled (yet)
gotta think some parts are used in more than one vehicle -
my dash still runs very hot - too hot to touch - I'm wondering when the fire will start

Bottom line,
Quality and company reputation matters.
the comments were intended for the person who was shopping for a new truck.

ross1962 · February 2004

Why I bought my 4x2 TB:
- Best Value: For the price, I could not find more horsepower and features.
- I get a GM Supplier discount. This amounts to about $1000 below invoice. It's the price the dealer paid to get the car onto their lot. They still make some money from GM due to a holdback. (GM pays the dealer every time they sell a vehicle)
- I've owned all GM since I started driving and have found them to be very reliable and good performing vehcles. I have no use for a gutless Toyota that can't get out of its own way. The downside is the resell value. If you expect to sell it in two years, you will not be happy with the price you get for it. I tend to hang on to my cars for 7-8 years / 150K-180K miles.

brunopuntzjone · February 2004

Like Chris Rock says, how the hell can we build a space shuttle and put man in space, but Cadillac can't build a bumper that will stay on a car for 10 years

cameokid · February 2004

Ross, I am curious when/where you got $1000 below invoice for GM Supplier discount. I also got GM Supplier discount on my TB last year, but not as much as you state can be had. I checked with a dealer tonight for current GM Supplier pricing who said for a 2004 TB that lists $34,075 -

Invoice price is $31,332
GM Supplier price is $31,047
GM Employee price is $29,853

The GM Supplier discount price is printed on the invoice, and from what they told me it does not change by region or for what supplier you work for. So, what's your secret? Are you a GM employee?

elevatorguy · February 2004

Are there any greasable fittings, or anything that I should be greasing at all, on my 03 TB(4x4)? Also, where are you guys getting air filters from? Are they available in the aftermarket or are the dealer only? What do they cost and how often should they be replaced?

Thanks

pepper50 · February 2004

Elevator guy wrote:
Also, where are you guys getting air filters from? Are they available in the aftermarket or are the dealer only? What do they cost and how often should they be replaced?

I'm getting ready to replace my first air filter in my Envoy at 15,000 miles. They have them at NAPA for about $21. If you have a AAA card, they also give a discount at NAPA, so I think I got it for $19. I have a question for those of you who have installed one, however. Do you have to remove that crossbar that goes across the air filter housing, or if you loosen the 3 screws can you slide that housing out from under the bar? Thanks for info.

pepper50 · February 2004

I installed some McGard wheel locks today, and I had a tough time getting the lug nuts off. I had had my wheels rotated a few weeks ago at the dealer, and they must have torqued them 150-200 ft.-lb. instead of 100 ft.-lb. I started with an X-shaped lug wrench, which I usually prefer since it exerts forces at 180-degrees opposite, but the nuts were so tight that the metal of the wrench started to spiral rather than turn the nut (this was probably too cheap a wrench). I did finally manage to loosen all the nuts with the OEM L-shaped lug wrench, and I retorqued everything to 100 ft-lb. Do most of you prefer the X-wrench, and if so, do you know who makes a good one that won't bend? Secondly, does anyone know the factory OEM nut size on the Envoy standard 17" wheels? The McGard site said the original nuts are 3/4" hex size, but the nuts themselves have the word "metric" embossed on them. Thanks.

quickdtoo · February 2004

3/4" = 19mm.... I use an 18", 1/2" drive breaker bar and a deep well socket for mine, takes up less room than the X bar and just as much leverage.

quickdtoo · February 2004

I've been using K&N filters for the last 20 yrs, once I buy one, never need to buy another, just clean em every 15-20k miles. Installed an E-1009('02-'03 models not sure of '04) K&N as soon as they were available from K&N, ~$50-$55 at online sources. Bought mine at Martel Performance, $52 and free shipping.

elevatorguy · February 2004

Anyone here using a high performance re-usable air filetr? If so, which one? I was looking around online and see that K&N, Accel, AirAid, and Green Filter all make the cotton gauze type for the TB. I had a foam type reusable that was made by Amsoil for my F-250 diesel (R.I.P. ;-))but Amsoil doesn't have an application for our trucks. I have read horror stories online about the cotton type not trapping dirt well enough and causing engine damage. I would like some real world feedback. Anyone notice any power or MPG increases from these filters? Anyone see any debris like sand or dirt in their airbox when servicing the filter? Which filter is best and where is the best place to get one?

Thanks,
Todd

elevatorguy · February 2004

Guys,
Anyone ever heard of True Flow? They make a foam filter for our trucks, as well as an intake system. I like the idea of the foam. If anyone here is using one, I would love to hear an opinion.

Thanks

gam2 · February 2004

You want quality? How about something as fundamental as putting gas in the damn thing. This morning I couldn't. Two different pumps, as slow as they could pump, pump, click, pump, click.
Took 10 minutes to put 10 gallons in. Toyota passed Ford for #2 in the world, won't be long before they are #1 if this keeps up.

GAM

2002slt · February 2004

I've had the fill-up problem you're referring to a few times, probably like 5 or 6. It's always been at the same BP station and nowhere else. No matter what speed I pump, the gas will not go into the tank after about a gallon. It actually will start to backflow if I continue trying. I just go down the street to another station and all is well. A real pain if I'm in a hurry, though.

tidester · February 2004

Will it help to avoid letting the tip of the nozzle touch the inner wall of the intake tube on the gas tank?

tidester, host

2002slt · February 2004

It doesn't mater how I position the nozzle when this occurs.

bobfish · February 2004

Does anyone know if the load leveling rear suspension option improves the ride or handling?

pepper50 · February 2004

gam2 wrote:
You want quality? How about something as fundamental as putting gas in the damn thing. This morning I couldn't. Two different pumps, as slow as they could pump, pump, click, pump, click.
Took 10 minutes to put 10 gallons in.

I was once told that the dreadfully slow gas station pumps were due to a clogged filter on their pumps, and that they need to change their dirty pump filter.

gam2 · February 2004

It's not the pump that's slow, it's that the truck won't take the gas. The pump shut's off at any speed above a dribble. Doesn't matter what angle the pump is at or whether it's inserted all the way. Only happens on occasion, but it's irratating as hell. At least it doesn't burp back a gallon or so like two Trailblazer owners at work!

GAM

cameokid · February 2004

It's definately a design problem with the vehicle. It's not that the pump is slow - the gas is splashing back and triggering the auto-shutoff on the pump nozzle.

The first time I went to put gas in my TB, mine went pump, click, pump, click too. I pulled the pump nozzle about 1/2 way out and found a position where it would fill without cutting off, but if you set it and walk away it doesn't shut off before it overflows and runs gasoline all down the inside of your rear fender, then the fumes fill the inside of the car and stay for hours.

Hasn't happened to me in awhile because now I stand there and hold the nozzle 1/2 way out for the entire fill. Not fun on these 10 degree days in freezing rain. I estimate how much gas it will take to fill 'er up, then when I get within the last gallon or so, I slow the nozzle and listen for the gas to come up the neck so if it doesn't shut off, I don't spill too much. I'm getting pretty good at guessing how much it will take (but it shouldn't be this hard).

Gotta love those undocumented features!

01_hoe · February 2004

Does this problem occur with all size tanks? My '03 Envoy SLT with the 18 gal tank has not shown this problem yet at 12500 miles.

Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

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