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Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

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Comments

  • keithd1949keithd1949 Member Posts: 4
    The wife and I looked at the new Trailblazer and Envoy on Friday. She absolutely loved the Envoy.

    My question is about towing and gas silage. The LT with the ERAS only comes with the 4.10 rear end. How much does this effect the gas mileage when not towing.

    I can get the standard suspension with a 3.73 rear end that should be sufficient to tow my 3,000 lb boat trailer but no ECAS.

    Anyone have experience with towing or the mileage with the 4.10 rear end?

    Thanks,
    keith
  • immoeimmoe Member Posts: 15
    Has anyone seen or driven an Envoy SLT with the $1500 Off-Road and towing package? Also has anyone seen a green vehicle? A dealer here in RI has over twenty Envoys but none of the above.
  • rjvicarsrjvicars Member Posts: 12
    Can anyone describe, in detail, the retrofit that will be made to the 6,000 vehicles? Also, can anyone speculate as to what this will do to depreciation, resale, and incentives for new purchase?
  • sostroublesostrouble Member Posts: 65
    My husband took me to look at the Trailblazer LTZ, then we went and looked a white Envoy SLT with the top premium package, 4.10 gears, automatic load leveler, BOSE Stereo, heated seats, everything but the sunroof. After test driving the Envoy SLT, it went home with me. In the 4 days and 164 miles that I had it, it handled great. I didn't get to tow our trailers before they took it back. I wanted to break in the engine first.

    I didn't get the off-road package which was the less expensive package, because I didn't want the off-road tires, they can be noisier on the highway.

    With the premium package load leveler you also get an air compresser built in. I had this in my Pontiac STE, and it was great. You can fill bike tires, trailer tires, etc. If you go to the river to tube, you don't need to fill the tubes up first, you can do it right there.

    I can't wait to get it back, but I think that GM is doing the right thing by correcting the problem. I just hope that if they are going to give incentives on future ones, they give it to us for patiently waiting while they correct the problem.
  • hambone7hambone7 Member Posts: 130
    Sunroof/OnStar/TrailBlazer LS model

    Messages have been posted earlier on this topic, but there was never any closure on the issue. Here's the story: For some reason, GM has decided that if you want a sunroof on an LS model then you must purchase the OnStar option (which is standard only on the LT and LTZ models. I had a salesman calling me to find out "when I was ready to buy", so I posed the sunroof/OnStar question to him. Well, he stopped calling me as expected. I don't want to spend an additional $985 for OnStar just for the priviledge of being able to order a sunroof. Is this just a sales ploy from GM to sell more OnStar?
  • rpageaurpageau Member Posts: 94
    Since the recall, a few have asked about getting their money back. Check the link below. It indicates cars have been bought back by GM, as well as dealers.


    http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories/fordgm417.htm


    I called the dealer today about the repair procedure. He said he did not know the specifics, but no welding would be required, which was my biggest concern. If true, I am far less concerned about the repair. It would seem the dealer ought to be competent enough to remove and replace a whole assembly that is bolted together. I can't even imagine GM would send out parts they weren't certain would do the job, especially after volunteering the recall in the first place.

  • akajoeakajoe Member Posts: 69
    Welding would not have been an acceptable repair procedure because it would have introduced validation challenges and work that the factory cannot control. They would not have been able to "prove" that such a fracture would "never" occur again with any kind of credibility. Therefore, a procedure requiring welding would have resulted in cars being taken back to a certified GM facility for rework - not something that their budget ($15M) for the recall could have accomplished. They would also have had to increase their product liability insurance on those vehicles reworked - which would have probably written off any profits on those vehicles for GM.

    As for the repair itself, most dealers employ GM and ASE certified mechanics who are probably much better qualified and skilled at such dissassembly and reassembly work than the assembly people on the production line who assembled the thing in the first place. The recall procedure will have been worked out many times by the engineers at GM before they initiate the procedure at the dealers. This is to make sure that it is straightforward and not "risky" and can be easily inspected to ensure proper execution.

    On the face of it, it looks like a very involved procedure to replace the lower control arm. It is more complex for AWD models, with drive shafts. For all vehicles, it looks like brake assemblies, steering arms, brake discs, steering knuckles, axel bearings, coil springs, fron shocks, upper control arm connections, and finally lower control arm connections and mount points on the frame all need to be dissasembled and then put back again. And this needs to be done on both sides. It will probably take 8 or more hours of labor. Say it takes 10 hours, at 65/hour, that's $650 per car, plus car rentals. It will probably get over the $1000 estimated by GM per car for the recall.

    I hope there aren't any parts left after they are done, and the mechanic isn't standing there holding them and scratching his head.

    If there was welding taking place, I would seriously consider pushing for GM to repurchase, even if I planned to purchase a later build one. They can go and sell it as used to somebody who doesn't care.
  • lyndellwlyndellw Member Posts: 31
    Recall:Causing Customer Additional Problems
    Here in my town there were two vehicles recalled, my Envoy and a Bravada. I refused to leave my Envoy set outside at the dealers. Keeping it in my garage till the parts come in. The Bravada was parked outside and received extensive hail damage.Dealer says not there responsibility. I have a brand new SUV from Enterprise Rental Car,it got extensive hail damage. The manager says my insurance has to fix it. I was not offered optional insurance when I received the SUV. GM said if I had the optional ins they would have included it in the rental charge. Looks like I'm the loser.
  • debbin67debbin67 Member Posts: 35
    I sure am glad I am not alone in this fiasco. I too have (or think I have) a 2002 Envoy. My question to all of you owners is what kind of car have you been compensated with. My family is now driving a 4 door Ford Focus, roll up windows, I didn't even think that was possible, and manual locks! Doesn't seem right to be making a 500/mo payment on this tin can!
  • richardc4richardc4 Member Posts: 33
    On March 14, 2001 I bought a 2002 GMC Envoy in Phoenix, AZ. On April 5, 2001 my Envoy was recalled where I live in Tucson and taken to the nearest dealersip. It was literally taken from me. A better word would be to say that it was stolen by the factory that built it. I was given absolutely no information about what the trouble is or when I might even think about having my SUV returned. It's impounded in a locked yard baking in the hot Southern Arizona sun. It's sat through a rainstorm and a hailstorm. The temprature here is now in the 90's and in a few days could well be in the 100's. After numerous phone calls and also getting in the face of the people who have my car I learned the following: The dealer (whom I didn't buy my SUV from) has absolutely no information about what's actually wrong or when I might even expect to even think about having my vehicle returned. I was also told that GM is calling all the shots in this. When I called 1 (866) 226-6622 I was told that under certain circumstances certain 2002's might experience a failure of the lower front control arm. When I asked what certain circumstances and what certain vehicle, I was not given an answer. In short, we who have put down our hard earned money for Trailblazers, Bravadas and Envoys have for all practical purposes given GM a blank check to do as they damn well please with our vehicles. This matter is being handled very poorly. Through the years I've owned a total of 9 GM vehicles. Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick and now GMC. If I have to wait a month or even another week for my new car that's being virtually destroyed by this recall, GM can rest assured that there will not be a 10'th. Ford is just across the street from where my car is being held against my will. My last car was a Ford and my next car will be bought there. They at least try to cooperate with their customers and keep them informed. General motors with it's [non-permissible content removed] (for lack of a better word) tactics will NEVER get my busiess again, and never is a very long time. And the dealership that has my vehicle will never get it's hands on it again once it's returned. In addition, I might add that I'm a retired professional driver of nearly 50 years. I've had virtually everything that happen to a vehicle go wrong and like to think that I have some idea what I'm doing when behind the wheel. Some appear to feel that GM is looking out for us. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It's CYA time in Detroit and all GM is doing is covering it's own hindside. Things that are mechanical break. A vehicle of any kind is mechanical. Parts on it will break, sometimes with no warning. That's a fact of life so those who approve of what General Motors is doing in this matter should get a horse and find a place to buy hay.

    Dick
  • richardc4richardc4 Member Posts: 33
    I could have written a lot more but you no doubt wouldn't have printed it because to say it was X rated would be an understatement. I'm not just angry about what's being done I'm just plain madder than hell! And if you like, you can print this.

    Dick
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    richardc4 : While it's hard having your new truck impounded, would you rather risk an accident/ injury by continuing to drive it?? While your dealership should have provided more information to you, I fail to understand the purpose of your rant. Were you not given a replacement vehicle?

    Fact of the matter is, GM is looking out for your safety. If you don't understand that then there is nothing I more can say.
  • rjvicarsrjvicars Member Posts: 12
    GM ultimately did right by me regarding my 2002 Envoy, although I did have to apply some pressure.

    I had my Envoy for less than two weeks before it was impounded for the safety defect. I loved it!!!

    I had the SLT with towing. I have recently driven the new Explorer and a new Durango. The Envoy clearly outclasses these vehicles in virtually all categories. Where it does fall critically short is exterior and interior fit and finish. The door panel gaps were large and uneven, all the way around. My other cars are German, which I know is an unfair comparison, but the fit and finish on these several year old cars is perfect. The steel used on the front fenders is frighteningly thin. Wrap your knuckles on it and you will see what I mean. DO NOT lean on them, they are that weakly supported. Maybe this will be improved over time.

    I will be watching to see how the "improved design" for the control arm is incorporated. I will also wait a year to look at Envoy's again. Though I am more inclined to put in my order for any Acura MDX or the like. GM, more than most automakers, in my experience, needs to wring the bugs out for a year when a new model is introduced.

    Again, GM ultimately satisfied me as a customer...albeit, some pressure was necessary.
  • jbossertjbossert Member Posts: 38
    Debbin67 - GM instructed all dealers to make arrangements for you to get a "comparable" vehicle. You shouldn't have to rant and rave, but I did and got a 2001 Tahoe. You should raise the roof!!!!
  • califjohncalifjohn Member Posts: 101
    Does anyone know if heated seats are available on the high end option packages with the Trailblazer, Envoy, or Bravado? What about navigation systems?
  • jhtjht Member Posts: 24
    I don't know about the other two, but my Bravada came with heated seats. It's usually available when you get leather as an option, so assuming you got the TrailBlazer or Envoy with leather, you should also be able to get heated seats.

    None of them include navigation systems, though. The ones with OnStar all have GPS systems built in - if you were so motivated you could probably hack the antenna into connecting to a Garmin StreetPilot or something comparable, then hardwire the Garmin to the car's electrical system. I do that for the radar detector any time I buy a car.

    Of course, I haven't had my Bravada in-hand long enough to do that to mine yet...
  • rambo4949rambo4949 Member Posts: 1
    question for anyone on the 2002 tb
    do the rear passenger windows go all the way down?
    does the sunroof close when you shut off the ignition?
    How many watts and speakers does the preium sound system have?
    thx anyone
  • akajoeakajoe Member Posts: 69
    Debbin67, after much complaining to GM about non-cooperation by my dealer, I got them to approve a Jeep Grand Cherokee through Enterprise. GM actually lists Enterprise as a rental agency that most dealers work with, though the one I went to claimed the did not work with Enterprise. I found that some other branches of that dealer (notably the Ford dealer) worked directly with Enterprise for their loaners. When I told GM customer service, they leaned on the dealer and got it all approved. The Jeep was brand new, with less than 50 miles on it - clean as a whistle. Not some 2 year old filthy car they wanted to give me originally.
  • rpageaurpageau Member Posts: 94
    It's a shame some dealers are treating people so badly (at least based on some of the stories I have been reading here). At my dealership they sent me straight to the showroom, and asked me what I wanted to drive. When I told them I wanted the candy apple red Corvette on the showroom floor, the truck mgr. almost had a heart attack. They politely told me that was the only car off limits, so I had to settle for a 2001 Tahoe with 4 miles on it. It now has twice as many miles on it as my Trailblazer had when it was confiscated.

    p.s. They were arranging rentals for people who bought their vehicles elsewhere.
  • ducatist4ducatist4 Member Posts: 28
    It is sad to hear the stories of poor treatment. We got a rental from National enterprise, and choose a minivan initally. It was okay, but when I told our dealer we didn't like it all that much, they gave us a fully loaded silhouette with 4 miles on it. Can't wait to get the Bravada back.
  • jeff237jeff237 Member Posts: 38
    Mr C, a man of your years should understand that not all goes smooth with new designs. You should have waited till next year. Be cool like the "Fonz"

    At least GM is taking the precautions needed whether or not they are watching their rears or ours. Mine was picked up on April 5th, one week after I bought it. I am asking that they make my first car payment and add running boards. They gave me a Saab 9-5SE as a sub. I have a Envoy SLT with sunroof and rear air suspension. Hoping to get the car back next week. I look forward to many years of enjoyment with my Envoy. A few weeks to fix a major safety concern is OK in my book.
  • alanialani Member Posts: 39
    I am sorry this happened to you, as I stated before, most of the positive experience with a purchase has to do with the dealer! - I think I am lucky, my dealer did everything, GM called me total of 5 times.
    Now, I got Jimmy 2001 with 16000 ml on it, GM was willing to locate a car of my choice but the dealer got me one 1st. Also, GM told me in writing and on the phone that I should get a "comparable" replacement.
    My dealer is keeping my car INDOORS!; I did a spot check over the week end and it was sitting inside the shop.

    UPDATE: just got off the phone with GM, I should get the car before the end of the month - I think they do not want to commit to a specific date.

    I asked about the monthly payment, I was told that is why I was given a "rental" I did not like the answer but I'll keep the fight for latter. Also, I asked about GM buying the car back -I have no intention to, just testing the water- I was told that they handle it on a case by case basis. Something tells me that if we fight hard enough we might:
    1- have them buy it back
    2- get a new one that is built right (I want that)
    3- get compensated in any form for the pain and shock.

    What ever the case is, I will not take my car back just like that.

    -Alan
  • rpageaurpageau Member Posts: 94
    Alan...See my post #532. There is a link to an article that references GM and dealer buybacks, if that is what you really want.
  • rpageaurpageau Member Posts: 94
    I hope no one has to resort to their state's lemon laws when this is over, but I urge everyone to review the laws for their state. The dealer should have given you a brochure at time of delivery. There are things the consumer must do to maintain their rights, and I don't think any of us had our vehicles long enough to know how it will hold up after this current crisis is over.

    I would guess that lemon laws are cookie-cutter laws pretty much copied from state to state. In Florida you are required to notify (registered mail) the manufacturer when your vehicle has been out of service for a cumulative 15 days regardless of defect. The hammer comes down hard (buyback, replacement, etc.) after the vehicle has been out of service for a cumulative 30 days. Don't make a mistake and lose credit for what is happening right now! I suppose a good lawyer could overcome this technicality, but why have to pay one.

    If it applies in your state, the 15 days are up this Friday.
  • richardc4richardc4 Member Posts: 33
    Dindak if you think GM is looking out for any one but GM you must believe in the tooth fairy. My "rant" is that according to my recall notice the right or left lower control arm bracket on CERTAIN vehicles could under CERTAIN circumstances POSSIBLY fracture and separate from the frame. From what I understand, the bracket is welded to the frame. It's done in a jig Before the car is assembled. I really don't care to have some line mechanic who fancies himself a welder cutting and welding on any part of the frame of any vehicle I own. Particularly on the front end. It will be a Joe McGee lash up at best and could very well be more dangerous than what we might now possibly have. It also appears that the cars are not being inspected to find if they actually have a problem. They're simply going to hash something up and if you like that sort of thing good for you. It's MY car I'm concerned about. It doesn't belong to the dealership or GM. I am not being given any information and in spite of what some may think, I am an interested bystander.
  • alanialani Member Posts: 39
    I looked at my brochure (from the dealer), under NJ law, 3 attempts within 18000 mile or 24 month or the vehicle is out of operation for 20 or more calendar days.
    I will call NJ dept of public safety first thing in the morning.

    However, that is not what I want, if the fix is simple, then fine. However, if it is extensive as most of you implying, then I need a replacement vehicle.

    -Alan
  • debbin67debbin67 Member Posts: 35
    Hi,its me again, after a long day at my dealership. They know nothing more than the rest of us, "the part is being manufactured, we should have it early next week!" No kidding! I never ranted and raved about my rental, but I did inquire today at the dealership and they couldn't believe that I was driving a Focus! Well, back to Enterprise I went and was given a brand new Mitsubishi Montero Sport (very cute!) Ranting and raving gets you nowhere, so I will sit and wait. I do agree with those of you who want the dealer to buy back these vehicles though. Don't get me wrong, I TOTALLY love my Envoy and would definitely get another one, however, I would rather order a new one and take delivery of one built without this malfunction. Its not the same once it has been taken apart. I will fight this once there are some DEFINITE answers, not just speculation.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Well I guess you know better than the engineers then. There was a truck that did in fact have a failure which is why GM pulled the trucks off the road. Yes they certainly don't want people hurt for their own reasons also, but at least they did it before people were hurt. You have a replacement vehicle so I'm not sure why you would drive something that has the potential to hurt you. Perhaps you don't put the same value on life that most people do.
  • jeff237jeff237 Member Posts: 38
    richardc4, aka richie cummingham, post #547 was for you. Take a chill pill!!!
  • jhockadayjhockaday Member Posts: 8
    I posted a couple of days ago how I had bought a new Bravada that was supposed to be fixed. The dealer was going to deliver it today (tuesday). Well after reading all the other posts on this site I called them up on Monday to verify that it was really fixed. Guess what, it had not been fixed! They offered me another vehicle to drive but I was not interested. After venting my disappointment the dealer said that he would just tear up the contract and I would be off the hook. He said that he would call me when it was fixed if I was still interested. Needless to say but I am still ticked.
  • jeff237jeff237 Member Posts: 38
    jhockaday, Sounds like a typical sales ploy. I would not purchase this SUV from this dealer. Good Luck!
  • jbossertjbossert Member Posts: 38
    I called the 866-226-6622 number. The rep. assured me that GM has not bought back ANY vehicles. She insisted that any and all buybacks were done at the dealer level. QUESTION: Is there anyone out there that has had their vehicle bought back by GM directly??

    The rep. also added that GM is planning on compensating us, but will not decide on the compensation until they see how long the fix takes. She mentioned that there is talk of extending the warranty. I explained that I already purchased one. We'll see what happens.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    GM speeds up recall campaign. Replacement parts for SUV suspension flaw due soon.

    Steve
    Host
    Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • blake777blake777 Member Posts: 6
    I asked the dealer about buying back my vehicle, and getting a full refund. There answer was that they could buy it back, BUT not for what I paid for it..........real nice! They said a full buy back was totally in the hands of GM......and, that their hands were tied.

    Also, when the wrecker came to my work to tow my Envoy into the dealer, he commented on the quality of the frame. He said it looked poorly built.......that the welding was not good. I mentioned this to my dealer, but they didn't make much comment about it.

    This is very frustrating.....especially for a vehicle that cost this much. I just wish GM would step up to the plate in this matter, and provide some kind of compensation.
  • russellfrussellf Member Posts: 1
    Has anyone heard anything lately on the recall? I have researched the Louisiana Lemon Law. It calls for 4 repair attempts or 30 calendar days out of service. I have already spoken with a lawyer and he is ready to move if needed. Is there any interest in a class action suit for all of us 2002 GM SUV owners?
  • timxlbtimxlb Member Posts: 2
    I was told yesterday by GM Recall Team that both the brackets (left & right) and the lower control arms (also, left & right) will be replaced. The brackets were shipping this week and the control arms will be shipping next week. They could not tell me exactly what is involved in replacing these parts.
  • allenrallenr Member Posts: 89
    What we need to find out if the bracket is welded-on or bolted-on. If it's bolted on then the fix is easy. However to cut off a welded part and weld on the new one requires a lot of experance to do it right and make it strong. One could very easly compromise the frame at the weld if there not carefull.

    Allen
  • guy21guy21 Member Posts: 129
    This is only a guess, but from what has been posted here recently, I'll predict the following: GM is issuing a bracket of some sort to allow owners to safely drive the vehicles without risk of the a-arms falling off. The vehicles will then be given back to their owners. This has be done quickly as there will be a herd of valid lemon law suits if these cars go 30 days out of service. Then, when the redesigned a-arm is ready, a second recall will be done for final replacement. Again, this is only a guess. I can remember back to the 70's when the fix for defective engine mounts was a steel cable bolting the engine to the frame so it couldn't go through the hood.
  • jbossertjbossert Member Posts: 38
    allenr: I couldn't agree more. If the bracket(s) need to be cut off and re-welded I will relentlessy pursue a refund, even if it means litigation. I do not trust Joe Chevy Mechanic to correctly weld anything to my vehicle, let alone a front-end suspension bracket!!
  • blake777blake777 Member Posts: 6
    I just heard from my dealer.....they said they were to get the part by end of week, and that my Envoy should be ready sometime next week. I do have concerns about whether this part is having to be welded on. I need to call the dealership back to find out more info. on this........that is, if they are honest with me about it.
  • jeff237jeff237 Member Posts: 38
    I requested from both GM recall center and my dealer a schematic of the assembly. I asked that they highlight the bracket so I can see how it is fitted on. Also my dealer said he has received detailed repair instruction on how the replacement part is to be installed. He will fax that to me also. He is waiting for the part to be shipped. GM said today that all dealers will have the parts by the end of the month. I hope they ship to California first. I feel my dealer has been honest & straight forward. Believe it or not!!
  • trek1420btrek1420b Member Posts: 32
    I find it amazing all the different information we are all receiving, be it from GM or our local dealers. It should be a simple matter in this day and age of getting out the correct information to everyone. Besides that I thought the recall notice I received in the mail was very vague on what would be done by the dealer calling it a "repair procedure that can be accomplished at your....dealership." Come on, after telling us to "stop driving the vehicles immediatetly" they should have the brains to think we are going to want to know more about EXACTLY what was wrong and EXACTLY how it will be fixed! I applaud GM for getting them off the roads but little or no information only leads to disinformation.
  • fiber700fiber700 Member Posts: 18
    I read a news article, at autonews.com at http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories/fordgm417.htm

    The articles gives several examples of GM buying back these SUVs.
  • ducky87ducky87 Member Posts: 11
    my salesman called me back today after i called and told him i wanted my money back, he said gm would but it would take a few days to work out the details. i had to laugh at some of the reports that dealers would fill gas tanks and wash the vehicles before returning them to their long lost owners. my envoy was nearly full with its first tank of gas when recalled and was spotless. i have mixed feelings about returning the envoy, it is a unique vehicle and fit my needs perfectly, but i am uneasy about this control arm problem and the questions about the rear suspension (why no four wheel independent suspension? this question never was satisfactorily answered) my instincts tell me to dump this rig, and i will. if you keep yours get gm to throw in a bunch of stuff, i recommend free inspections, alignments and extend the warranties, toss in additional life and disability too while your at it.
  • richardc4richardc4 Member Posts: 33
    For didak and jeff237. At least I had the guts to use my name. obviously dindak didn't and Jeff can't seem to spell. With my ranting and raving I got some results that thanks to you two and your smart [non-permissible content removed] remarks I have no intention to sharing with anyone. Others pay because of you two jerks who obviously don't give a tinker's damn aboaut your new vehicles or anyones feelings.
  • teoteo Member Posts: 2,508
    Relax! I understand how you feel, but there is no need to get personal...

    Others:: Lesson to be learned...NEVER EVER BUY A FIRST YEAR GM CAR OR TRUCK!

    I have test driven the Trailblazer and it is an amazing truck. The Envoy is my favorite as far as looks are concerned. I find the Bravada quirky looking with that Saturn inspired front end. But folks, unfortunately as far as GM goes, you just can't fully trust GM products from first year production runs. A GM product is much better by the second or third year of production...

    Beautiful trucks anyway. Hope everyone can have their rides back as sson as possible.

    Best of luck,

    TEO
  • jeff237jeff237 Member Posts: 38
    Richard, again an over reaction. I don't understand why you have not requested a refund. Sorry if you can't laugh at the situation. If you share your info or not, we will all get our SUVs back about the same time. Sorry if I cannut spel goood. Life is too short!!!
  • billsoterbillsoter Member Posts: 49
    It really would be useful if Edmunds could pursuade a knowledgeable GM rep to post status reports, etc. on this board concerning this recall and any other similar recalls for that matter.
    Without mentioning anyone in particular, I have read some really over the top comments regarding this recall. Official comments would at least minimize those.
    I understand the concern of those who have had their vehicles taken away and I sympathize with them.
    I ordered a new Bravada on March 8 and have my own concerns although they are not as serious as those who have had recalls.
  • lspanglerlspangler Member Posts: 102
    I heard on the radio today that GM is supposed to be firing the assembly line back up next Monday so whatever they were waiting for must have happened.
  • rroman8420rroman8420 Member Posts: 23
    This is a little old new, but has more detail in one place than most others!





    http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45967-2001Apr5.html

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