Subaru Impreza WRX

mitsugst · February 2001

Here's my view on what the WRX will compete with.
First of all let's lay out what the WRX is. It's a rally car image vehicle. Lets see now how many of these are there in the US... NONE. Subaru feels this will be a totally new market vehicle. I think the WRX will in some respects define the market. The market, which a lot of manufacturers are preparing for, is a an SUV type utility and a sports car type performance vehicle that will be combine and become an entirely new market. The performance vehicle craze came and left, the SUV craze is here alive and well, although the youth segment has no real entry into it unless they want to get real bored with a PT Cruiser and a RAV4,etc. What manufacturers are betting on is this knew cross between the two. So, the market is a rugged-sport most-terrain performance vehicle at an afordable prize.

Here's is the Competition lineup to come:

2003 Pontiac VibeGT/Toyota MatrixSport
Mitsubishi Lancer (which may never happen, see the next entry)
Mitsubishi RPM 7000 (rally car derived)
BMW X Concept
Ford EX (rugged sport dune buggy)
Pontiac REV
Mazda RX-8(sort of, since it has four doors for utility)
PT Cruiser (with the new Mercedes turbo diesel, if it ever happens)
Chevrolet Borrego (with SUBARU all wheel drive!)
(GM owns 20% of Fuji Industries AKA SUBARU)

barresa11 · February 2001

I, for one, love the fact that the WRX looks dull, especially in light of its performance potential. It will make seeing the surprised looks on the faces of the "performance looking" set that much more amusing to view from my rapidly departing rear view auto dimming mirror on my WRX wagon (a wagon, to add insult to injury!) Now that's what COOL is!!

Stephen

ottos · February 2001

With this car looking so boring, it is easier for my insurance agent to turn a blind eye. Even if he did know what it really was, he would still turn a blind eye, because the car simply doens't look the part. This stealthiness goes nicely with my enjoyment of tricking people. So when I leave them in the dust, I'll be saying trick or treat [non-permissible content removed]!

I think the looks of this car will turn some people away from it. Therefore I will get to pay less for it. Ok, as long as it can discreetly haul [non-permissible content removed] with 4 wheels peeling out as a plus.

I have to admit, I wouldn't have bought this car sight-unseen were it not for the rave reviews it has received for the past 6 years. The steering, the chassis balance and the engine have the British magazines declaring this car one of the best cars of the decade. And we know what kind of cars the British like: awesome handling cars for little money. Hey that's what I like! And this one has power and 4WD too? Are we at the nexus of the universe or something, like at 1st Ave. and 1st Street?

jk111 · February 2001

wrx is all about performance, so I guess if you are buying for looks.. you are better off with a Celica or something. But it does look a bit like a neon to me still...
I still can't believe they are offering this car for 24 grand. Import wise, it will destory all of the near price competitors ..

barresa11 · February 2001

I'd like to see the soon to be new owners of the WRX (sedan and wagon) get together, at least regionally to swap experiences, impressions, etc. Just something I've been toying with since the car is illiciting such great response. BTW, I'm located in the Seattle area and would volunteer to get something going for the NW contingency. Just something to think about as we wait for the WRX boat to come in.

Stephen

mjgplm · February 2001

I've been following this discussion from the beginning and I cannot wait any longer to ask the people who incessantly harp about the low MSRP: don't you realize that MSRP is not the true cost of the car? The true cost of the car is how much it will cost you to drive it for the length of time you plan on owning it.
Others compare this car to Audi and BMW models and, on paper, the Subaru seems very economical in light of its' performance and MSRP. But guess what? After 3 years of owning the Subaru, it will probably end up costing you around $3500/yr to drive whereas almost any Audi or BMW will cost you around $2000. The WRX is going to get killed in resale because anyone savvy enough to want this car, won't want one with 40,000 miles on it, out of warranty. I know I wouldn't. Hell, dealers are goingas far as to try and avoid test-drives.
I think I am going to start shopping for a Honda S2000, that car looks like it is actually appreciating. I have my $ down on a WRX, but I am almost hoping I hate it to avoid the big dilemma on the horizon. I know if I love it all this logic goes out the window, but I am trying to go into this with my eyes open: Subarus aren't exactly burning up the road here in Los Angeles. If this car kicks Subarus reputation up, it won't trickle into the main stream, this is an enthusiasts' car, plain and simple. Anyone else worried about this or do you all keep your cars for 10 years?

kostamojen2 · February 2001

MY98 Impreza RS's are still selling for around $15k, thats only about $6000 of depreciation over 4 years... Thats not bad at all. I think your logic is flawed MJG, sorry...

Plus, Subarus are very reliable, and compaired to the S2000, Audi's, Beemers, even VW's, their repair costs are CHEAP, If you ever do need repairs :P You might want to do somemore ressearch before you make your decision...

silver_bullet · February 2001

Hate to tell you this, but virtually all cars depreciate if you use them - even S2000s. Go to your Honda store and buy an S2000, then drive it around the block and back to the dealership, and ask them how much they'll give you for it. Be prepared to get mad. My friend recently bought a 2000 BMW 323i, and started thinking he'd actually like the extra power offered by the 330i, so about two months into owning it he went back to his salesman to discuss a trade. His 323i had about 2000 miles on it, and was cleaner than the day he picked it up (I was there). The dealer offered him $8K LESS than he paid for it on trade! Needless to say, he still has the 323i, and a new respect for highline depreciation.

I think it's dumb to buy an enthusiast car like the WRX if you are already worried about being able to resell it. Buy it because you WANT IT, and don't worry about what other people think. If the "investment" aspect of car ownership is most important to you, maybe leasing a Camry is a better idea.

FrankMc · February 2001

I would suggest you buy a used car, Something so ugly that it depreciates like crazy (a Pontiac Aztec in a couple of years would be ideal). You can save money by buying a used Chevy Cavailer.

Frank

ottos · February 2001

Who said anything about selling this car? I'm keeping this car until the body rusts off. I have 140k on my truck now, and it is 12 years old. I'm not getting rid of that either, it is worth a lot more money to me than I will get for it.

Besides, almost all cars depreciate. If you are interested in making a good investment, don't buy or lease a car at all unless it is like my truck, which still runs perfectly but is worth about $2000. You would be getting the most for your money.

I also think of my car as a way to keep from making car payments after I buy it.

ateixeira · February 2001

I disagree.

First, you say MSRP is not the true cost, but some dealers are selling the WRX for $400 over invoice, and $1000 over is common. So MSRP is too high(!), not too low.

Second, if you drive one for 40k miles, it IS still under warranty. You have another 20k miles, as a matter of fact (5/60k powertrain). Your S2000, on the other hand, carries the industry's shortest warranty, expired at 36k. So, add another $1000 for an extended warranty to even it out.

Finally, if you do calculate total cost of ownership, the Soob's advantage sky-rockets. Cheaper maintenance costs, much lower cost of acquisition, less interest, etc.

Styling isn't cutting edge, but those flavor-of-the-month coupes come and go in just a few short months. The WRX is stealthy, and I actually thought it looked better in person. Give me a wagon, yank off the WRX label and put a "GL" or something like that in its place.

Then the guy next to you gets spanked by a mere Subaru station wagon! Oh my, I don't know if too many Celica owners could handle that! It would be such fun!

-juice

ateixeira · February 2001

BTW, I don't dislike the S2000, it's actually pretty sweet (shifter and front seats in particular).

But 0-60 times range from 5.8 to 6.8 or so, and that's only if the pavement is perfectly dry. The Soob has been clocked a bit quicker (5.5 to 6.1), so don't bet pink slips just yet.

-juice

hersbird · February 2001

All Sedans depreciate within about 5% of each other, from the worst to the best. This is a percentage of MSRP so the lower the MSRP the less the actual dollar value of the loss. Most all new cars will be financed so add in the intrest. In 3 years the car will be covered under warranty so you have no repair cost. Gas mileage should be a pretty small difference. I guess the Subie may require tires more often as it actually has the power to abuse them but all in all the WRX's actual cost of ownership is right in line with it's MSRP. Something else to think about, what if you invested the difference in MSRP (say $15,000 in the case of the S4 or S2000 to WRX) for those 3 years. Even with a crappy return that $15,000 would more then make up for any depreciation on the WRX.

mjgplm · February 2001

Thanks everyone for the responses. I guess I should have clarified some things. First, 3 years is probably the most I can drive any car before wanting a new one; I like learning the subtleties of different cars and once I get to know them inside and out, I usually drive them at 9/10 of their capabilty for a year or so before becoming bored, whether the car is fantastic or not. I figured everyone did this which is why I am scared of buying a performance car more than a year or so old.
. I''ve heard the S2000 is a somewhat difficult car to drive(there is a learning curve), that and it being a convertible(never owned one) is what is interesting to me. Plus here in Los Angeles, pavement is bone dry and sun is shining 350 days of the year.
I wasn't trying to compare the WRX and the S2000, that would be silly. The S2000 is a convertible and the WRX is a sedan. Comparisons can(and inevitably will) be made, but they are both purpose-built vehicles and reflect the focus of their respective manufacturers(Honda-track racing; Subaru-rallying). Let's leave it at that. BTW, ateixeira, 2001 S2000 warranty is 3yr/60K.
It all comes down to the drive for me, the difference in price is(luckily) not an issue for me at this point. I figure the WRX will be $29000 including tax and those 17' OZ Prodrive wheels with Potenza tires. My issue is how much more is the convertible worth to me? I can buy it for $33000 new, out the door. So now we are talking about a difference of only $4K.
I actually hate how the S2000 screams "look at me and my 9000 RPM redline!" The Subaru is much more my style being very modest considering its' ability. I want the Subaru more at this point never having driven either car. I drive the S2000 this SUN, but then have to mull this over until my WRX comes in.

See the dilemma?

outbackguru · February 2001

If you aren't going to keep one 5 years or more, I recommend doing a lease/balloon financing. I sell cars and looking at new ones all day long makes it hard to hold one to an old car. I have done several 3 year balloons and it makes it so easy to and you don't have to worry about a trade in. In my experience all cars take a big hit as soon as you take them home, it is part of owning a car. Don't worry about it, just deal with it! As for pricing on the WRX, I have 3 orders in, (we aren't a big dealer) and they are all at MSRP. I don't think that's unreasonable for this car, we sell plenty of cars at not much over invoice, we have to make money on something right? My wife is a year and half away from her current car being ready for turn in and is drooling over the WRX, I have that long to teach her to drive a 5 speed well enough that the cost of replacing clutches does not outweigh the cost of an automatic!

ateixeira · February 2001

You have a tough (fun) choice to make. I'd take as long as you can trying both! :-)

Just my opinion, but if you plan to drive at 9/10ths, both the WRX and S2000 will get you close and personal with Officer Bob. A WRX maybe less so.

I have an older Miata (plus a Forester) and they are a hoot, plus you can drive them at 10/10ths and not attract too much unwanted attention. Just a thought.

As far as convertibles go, you really have to want one and be in the right frame of mind. They are loud, cramped, impractical, less safe, and cold.

Solution: get both! The WRX is a great all-season performer. The S2000 can be your sunny day pal.

-juice

j_coleman · February 2001

Can you do any off-road rally racing in the WRX, or is it strictly a street machine?

Also, I found the following resale values in a magazine:

Impreza L 4dr - 2 years 55% / 4 years 42%
Impreza L 2dr - 2 years 54% / 4 years 41%
Impreza 2.5 RS - 2 years 58% / 4 years 44%

ottos · February 2001

"I figured everyone did this which is why I am scared of buying a performance car more than a year or so old."

I would just like to say that driving at 10/10's doesn't imply increased wear and tear on the important parts of the car, even the engine. Full throttle does not significantly increase wear on the engine. Full-throttle even helps to clean the engine a little. However, what's really bad, of course, is not allowing the engine to fully warm up, over-revving, or high-revving when the engine is cold (though giving it lots of throttle at low revs is ok when cold). Another bad thing, but something that can't be helped, is cold-starts.

Hard cornering only harms the tires. Therefore, I look forward to my cheap-tired 16" wheels on my WRX!

ateixeira · February 2001

You could rally cross the WRX as-is, but I'd get mud guards and skid plates, at a minimum. You may need taller springs for rough terrain.

Those resale numbers seem lower than what I've seen in local papers. A new RS costs around $18k street price, but maybe they're calculating based on the MSRP, which noone pays.

Turbos do need extra car. Good gas, warm ups, cool downs, etc.

-juice

ramon · February 2001

the s2000 as your primary car. It works well if as secondary weekend racer. Just my 2cents.

bedabi · February 2001

I got a call from the sales manager of Van Bortel Subaru near Rochester, NY. She confirmed my order and said they'll know exactly how many WRX's they'll receive in a few weeks. So, we'll see if they live up to their "invoice + $400" line.

By the way, there's a far better picture of the yellow WRX on the official Subaru WRX site (http://www.imprezawrx.com/wrx.htm). Go the "See the Car" menu and tap on "The News" flash link. You can see that the yellow is not anywhere as pale as the photos posted here earlier. It's much flashier.

ateixeira · February 2001

I fully agree. In fact I have a Miata and cannot imagine life without my Forester. The Miata is fine for certain drives, but simply cannot accomplish half the jobs that the Forester can.

Guess I'll wait to see that yellow in person. It certainly will stand out.

-juice

kupaq · February 2001

Bad news bedabi
the yellow wrx is as pale as the pics earlier in this forum. The pic on the sube site is a little doctered. Check out the chicago auto show gallery at i-club.com. It has 20 or so shots of the L.E. Impreza. I was a little leary at first about the color, but I think its growing on me.

midnightcowboy · February 2001

>I think I am going to start shopping for a Honda >S2000,

CO TO aUTOWEEK. Latent demand is over. You can easily get one at list or below.

Good car if you only need 2-seater. Very high relaiblity.

Those who poo pah torque have lived with a high RPM engine. Still have 95 GSR (8,000rpm redline) as my winter beater car.

WRX will be good, though maybe overrated a little!

midnightcowboy · February 2001

>I've been following this discussion from the >beginning and I cannot wait
>any longer to ask the people who incessantly harp >about the low MSRP:
>don't you realize that MSRP is not the true cost >of the car? The true
>cost of the car is how much it will cost you to >drive it for the length
>of time you plan on owning it.

What is it you don't like the WRX's low price?
You don't understand economics 101 ?

Or you just can't afford to upgrade your Yugo?

midnightcowboy · February 2001

>All Sedans depreciate within about 5% of each >other, from the worst to
>the best.

My 98 BMW M3 4 door sedan 5-speed didn't and won't. Your generalization is wrong!

intrigue3 · February 2001

Mr. Midnightcowboy-

Down Cujo! This is a friendly, if not accurate, exchange of ideas and thoughts. Nothing adversarial about it.

I believe the heading for this Town Hall is Subaru Impreza WRX- let's focus on that and be nice.

silver_bullet · February 2001

Chill, Mr. M3 sedan. Back on topic, has anyone gotten a tentative delivery date from their dealer? For that matter, how many of you have been able to get your dealer to agree to a sales price in writing? My dealer still won't acknowledge the $23,995 + $525 delivery MSRP, despite all the printed evidence available from SOA... rather suspicious (and frustrating).

ateixeira · February 2001

Sounds like that dealer is holding out for a possible mark-up, depending upon the demand he sees.

I'd look elsewhere.

-juice

ottos · February 2001

Then don't buy the car from him. Come to Ann Arbor Subaru, they are offering MSRP. They are also a seemingly honest dealer, so I hope they live up to that or they won't have my money either. There are plenty of other dealers to visit (just takes a little driving).

Good thing this car is not so flashy and therefore not in extreme demand, or else I couldn't act this staunch. You know, everytime I look at my future silver WRX, I notice something else boring about it. This time I noticed that the rear brake rotors aren't ventilated. Before I noticed how boring the 16" wheels looked.

At this rate, I won't even need a radar detector, because when the police see the silver flash, and then later try to look for the violator, they will drive past the silver WRX toodling along and target the silver Mustang in front of me haw haw.

ateixeira · February 2001

There were some nice surprises, too, though.

I like the in-dash CD changer (not player, changer) and side air bags. Also, the seats are MARVELOUS, both comfortable and supportive, plus have height adjustment. I want some for my Forester!

The sedan also has a rear arm rest, which is nice since there is more room too.

-juice

barresa11 · February 2001

Scott: I ordered my WRX wagon through Carter Subaru in Seattle. The price is at MSRP and in writing including options. My salesguy did say that there may be a possibility that Subaru would raise the prices on the options. I don't have a delivery date yet but am waiting for it...patiently (ok...it's a relative term!) :-)

Stephen

silver_bullet · February 2001

I agree with you guys - if I hear any BS from my dealer about ADM or a second sticker due to high demand, I'm gone. This car will be a totally discretionary purchase for me - I don't really need a new car right now. Down here in TX, Subarus aren't exactly in big demand, so I'm thinking my dealer will see the light and treat me right

silver_bullet · February 2001

Before moving back to TX a year or so ago, I lived on Mercer Island and commuted to Redmond - I remember Carter Subaru and VW. Subarus and that climate seem like a natural combination. I recall being amazed at all the Subarus on the roads up there. Here in Houston, its rare for me to see more than a few Subarus per week. I'm amazed you were able to get a firm deal at MSRP, especially with all the money up there chasing every new, desirable car that comes along.

ateixeira · February 2001

For that exact reason I often recommend people in high-demand areas (Colorado, New England) consider a road trip to other places to purchase a new Soob. You can often negotiate on-line and just make the pickup in person.

Another competitor for the WRX wagon will be the Lexus IS300 Sportcross. 215hp, RWD, 5 door hatchback look, you name it. Just pricier.

-juice

dianne4toyota · February 2001

You guys, don't pay over sticker for the WRX! The website at irvinesubaru says she is fleeting them all at MSRP and the automatic models possibly at under the MSRP... I know you guys are mentioning the yellow being lighter but there is a photo at that www.irvinesubaru.com website that shows it is a bright yellow, banana yellow like Toyota Spyder MRS. Is it at all possible that the paler creme version is a different yellow? (Wondering)... I have done a lot of reading and checking articles on this car, as the Toyota Matrix is still a year from debut, but this Subaru seems tight and fun! I owned a 95 Impreza wagon stick and one of the main reasons I nabbed that car, at the time, was cost vs. fun and handling. It cornered thru a horrific rainstorm on test drive like no small car I had ever driven.

Di

rsholland · February 2001

So... you're a closet Subie fan!

Did you come (lurk?) over here from the Highlander forum to see what we're up to? Or, are you just scouting the competition?

As you might have gathered, Subie fans here are pretty excited about the WRX. We think it will be a wake-up call to rest of the industry. Myself and bunch of other members of the "Subaru Crew" (see Edmunds Owners Club) went to the Philly Auto show a couple of weeks ago, and we were able to sit in, poke, prod, and explore a WRX sedan and wagon to our heart's content. Needless to say, the WRXs drew a large crowd.

Bob

dianne4toyota · February 2001

I really think that in the past few years, from 1994 or thereabouts to now, they have done a complete turnaround with design, style, and accomplished a lot as a car company. Their all-wheel-drive on all cars and the 4-channel ABS are applaudable, and now that they seem to have their fingertips on the pulse points of the public need, I expect big things from them. I think their customer satisfaction levels are excellent, and repeat purchase ratio is high as well.

--Di

countzero · February 2001

I got a tentative date of March 15th from Clements Subaru in Rochester, MN. It's not in writing, but I think I can get my $500 deposit back if it isn't here by then. I've heard that they might be here the first week of March, but that's probably the earliest..

rsholland · February 2001

I don't know if you're visited the Subaru Crew over in the Owners Club, but if you do, you will see that there is a rather large group of Subie zealots that reside here.

Bob

ateixeira · February 2001

I heard early March too.

Can't wait to try one.

-juice

ramon · February 2001

you callin' Subaru zealots?! If only Lada continued to exist, I would've been driving one of those superb Russian automobile!!!

kostamojen2 · February 2001

Entaru Adun! (Starcraft Pun :P)

ramon · February 2001

For Adun!
Zangkaladas

orr · February 2001

Hi All, I too went to the Philly Auto Show to poke n prod the WRX sedan. It was kind of funny, I knew more about the car and options and cost than two of the Subaru reps, but did talk to one rep who had actually driven the car and said it was a screamer. He also confirmed the price of the BBS wheels at $3000 and change without tires! Too rich for my blood!

Don't mean to brag but I am fortunate enough to be a member of the Subaru VIP purchase plan via my company, meaning I'm getting a blue WRX sedan with short throw shifter, gauge pack, and spoiler at dealer cost. BTW invoice price for the sedan sans options is $22,048. My car should be in last week in March, first week in April. Anyone have any information about aftermarket sunroofs? That may be the deciding factor on whether or not I buy the car. Of course driving it will be a factor too, but if a sunroof is available next year, along with performance upgrades, it may be worth the wait...we'll see.

-Bob

pdx1 · February 2001

I placed an order for a WRX Wagon with the internet sales guys at Carr Subaru in Portland Or. and got a written quote for $800 over invoice. I still haven't received firm pricing or a delivery date.

Portland seems to be a pretty Subaru friendly city for buying - lots of volume and no sales tax.

JR

mmcbride1 · February 2001

I don't think you can compare the WRX to BMW or Audi. Yes, the car will undoubtedly outperform all but the Audi S4 and BMW M3 (cars that cost more than $40k). The difference is in the interiors. While the Subie is OK, the Audi and BMW offer much more luxurious interiors. Not many people who are seriously looking at either the BMW or Audi will look at the WRX. The Subie interior is just not plush enough for most of those buyers. The Audi/BMW owners want luxurious cars that perform well. The WRX owners want a car that performs great and will tolerate less luxurious interiors.

barresa11 · February 2001

Hence my history of being a Subaru buyer! Oh, and did I mention reliability and cost of repairs...didn't think so.
:-)

Stephen

mmcbride1 · February 2001

That's your opinion. I'm actually in the process of shopping for a new car. I'm probably going to get the A4 1.8T Quattro. I also considered the BMW 325xi (my favorite, but also the most expensive at about $33k well-equipped), and I want to look at the WRX before I decide, but I imagine the WRX to be a pocket rocket with little in the way of creature comforts or amenities, while the Audi is nicely loaded and is very comfortable and nice inside. The Audi is only about $2-3k more than the WRX equipped the way I want it ($27k vs. $24-25k). I think that's a small price to pay to get a truly beautiful car (inside and out) vs. a fun, fast car that is, IMO, not very attractive.

For me, it boiled down to this: What is more important - performance or luxury/accomodations? I chose luxury/accomodations. You may decide differently, but that doesn't make the Subie better. It just makes it better FOR YOU.

And as for reliability, I'd like you to show me some PROOF that the Subie is more reliable than either the A4 or 325i, not just your opinion.

And for repairs and maintenance, my cost will be zero. Audi offers free maintenance (including oil changes, tire rotations, wiper blades and anything else I might need) for 4 years/50,000 miles, and a b to b warranty of 4 years/50,000 miles. Subaru can't touch that.

outbackguru · February 2001

Well, I havn't driven it yet but I did get a ride in the WRX yesturday. What Fun! Subaru training rep. is touring with one right now and it stopped in Houston for a few hours for the various dealers to see it. The interior was nicer than I thought it would be and the seats were very comfortable. It was only a short ride but I was impressed, I've sold Subaru for 5 years and own an Outback which I am very happy with. I think a WRX and an Outback would suit me just fine in the garage!

Subaru Impreza WRX

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