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Comments
If you went to an outside brake shop to get the brakes services, and one-month later the brakes failed and you crashed the car, is Toyota or the brake shop responsible? It's not that clear-cut, is it?
Forget about the receipts for a minute. Do you personally know for a fact that your mechanics actually did what you paid for? Have you ever checked the dipstick after an oil change, and then re-check periodically, to make sure that the oil is clean and there is no early signs of abnormalities? If the oil is always reasonably clean looking, then where is the sludge coming from? If you're just interested in getting receipts, I'll gladly sell you all the receipts you want for $10 a piece. Getting sludge is a bad deal, but it's no excuse to make accusations without proof.
San Jose, CA
Brake pads are as different as tires. Some are soft, and wear out fast, others hard and last a long time. If you feel a vibration when you are braking to a stop, chances are that heat build up when you were braking sometime (panic stop, or not) has warped your rotors (the surface that brake pads press against to stop you). IF you are lucky, mechanic can "turn" them or cut out the warp and re-round them. If not, or if they have warped more than once, chances are, he/she will recommend replacement of the rotors.
If you've made a hard stop lately, and then feel a vibration when you stop next time, brakes are working OK. However, eventually, you will have to replace rotors. Although dealer prices are steep for replacement, the independent brake shops usually are OK. Caveat Emptor.
r/JC
mechanic's son
i had this incident with my toyota dealer early last year and its why i stopped taking my van to them for service.
i posted the story before but i'll post it again. i took my van to the dealer for one of its routine maintenance service. the service calls for oil/filter change, check brakes, check horn, lights, check this and check that. at that time, i had my snow tires installed and it was around march/april. after service was done, went home and decided i want to take off my snows and put back my regular all-season. well, well, well... 3 out of 4 wheels were seized-up and won't come off due to the salt/rust build-up between the rim and brake drum. one of the wheels, it took me more than 30mins to remove!
now, as the service states - check brakes. if they had removed my wheels to check my brakes - i wouldnt be having such a hard time removing them,would i? so this tells me the mechanic didnt check my brakes at all! since it was fairly new and low mileage - he "guess-timated" my brake pad/shoe wear. i was so mad/upset that i paid them over C$130 for the service and it wasnt done properly!
days later, one of their reps gave me a courtesy call to see how the service was. i started to tell her about my brakes. i told her if my brakes fail coz they didnt check it - i will be down in her office with my lawyer!! at that point, she offered to have another look at my van free of charge but i declined the offer and gave her some nasty comments! from that day on, i only take my van to the dealer for services that i cannot perform myself and i mark everything that i know needs replacing or removed for service! crooked dealers!
I say keep doing what you're doing. You don't have the "horrible sludge" and there's nothing that says you will. Just keep changing the oil like you mentioned - in my opinion )
I see row of Toyota in the Dealer lot, yes, I'm shopping, Will I walk in? Hell No!
I told them my theory. It is a two fold problem. First is that customers have a higher level of expectation of Toyota. The next is that they were unfortunate enough to sell cars (or vans) to a few loud people who feel they are owed something. On this issue, Toyota is no better or worse than anybody else, but it has been owner reaction that is very different.
The SPA is genuinely a goodwill gesture. They didn't have to do it. Every arbitration I know about agrees that Toyota is not responsible for these engine failures. Toyota has voluntarily chosen to pay for repairs in a number of cases. They are also the only manufacturer I know of to actually post in this, or any other forum. Show me where a corporate representative of Daimler Chrysler has ever had anything to say here at Edmunds.
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/dai/2002/february/20020211_dai_toyota.xml
In earlier press releases, Toyota said that they mailed the letter to 3.3 million owners of 1997 - 2001 Siennas, Highlanders, Celicas, Solaras, Avalons, Camry's, Lexus RX-300s, and Lexus ES-300s, however everyone who I know who has not experienced sludge has not received their letter. Are there any people here who did not experience sludge and have received the letter? Just curious.
The problem is improper maintenance: Tell me if the maintenance is/was done by the dealer, Ha, Ha! may be you guys are putting your own stingy shoes right into your own mouths again, and then blame the consumers for improper maintenance, consumers are all suckers, I guess from the Toyota point of view, a recall is a recall, just don't come up with a weird terms like: good will, improper maintenance etc., oh! let Toyota reminds your guys how to change oil, right, I owned 3 cars and they ran over 200k miles when I get rid of them, right, don't tell me I can't read the schedule maintenance table.
WHY DOES TOYOTA HAVE TO HAVE A "SPECIAL" PROGRAM TO REIMBURSE A CUSTOMER FOR AN ENGINE FAILURE THAT OCCURS DURING THE WARRANTY PERIOD WHEN THE CUSTOMER HAS PROPERLY MAINTAINED THE VEHICLE??? ISNT THAT WHAT A WARRANTY IS SUPPOSED TO COVER??? WHY DOES TOYOTA CONSIDER THIS GOING THE EXTRA MILE???
WHY HAVEN'T THEY HONORED THEIR WARRANTY IN THE PAST???
THE QUESTION IS WHY WOULDN'T TOYOTA PAY FOR AN ENGINE FALIURE DURING THE WARRANTY PERIOD FOR A CUSTOMER WHO MAINTAINED THE VEHICLE PER THE TOYOTA RECOMMENDATIONS?
IT ALL MAKES YOU WONDER HOW COMMITTED TOYOTA IS TO THE CUSTOMER!!!
Cliffy? Didn't it start showing up on most of the Siennas to assist with the transmission and possibly to alleviate the problem that occured with a few of the 2000 models that went out in a bad production run in the summer of 2000? ..sometime end of 2000, the towing package became standard.. does that sound right??
I’ve been reading Town Hall for several months but I haven’t come to any consensus about this sludging problem. Now my questions. Has anyone who changed their oil every four to six months or 3,000 miles experienced sludge? Is the sludging related to climate? How many of you had the dealer perform oil changes and still got sludge? What was the mileage and time frame between service? I still plan to change my own oil, even after allot of you said take it to the dealer. I know, I know, but I hate dealing with those service reps. So, in conclusion, if I change my oil often, say every four months or three thousand miles, which ever is first, can I expect a sludge-free engine? Thanks in advance, Rudy
The sludge issue MAY be connected with high engine operating temps., but this is not clear. THe engine on top of the tranny adds to heat build up in the tranny case and such may have led Toyota to install the cooling package as a matter of practice.
You seem to be familiar with the sludge issue. Are you aware of any cases before the SPA was initiated where a customer was able to get an engine repaired after agreeing to sign a non-disclosure agreement? One person I have communicated with signed an NDA in order to settle with Toyota.
Thanks, j mcd
TRANSMISSION WENT OUT AT 75 MPH/TACHOMETER WENT TO ZERO, AND ENGINE KEPT RUNNING. DEALER INFORMED CONSUMER THAT SHE WAS # 49 ON WAITING LIST FOR A TRANSMISSION WHICH WAS ON BACK ORDER. *AK
the link is too long for edmunds, you have to cut and paste the whole address.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/ComplaintsSum.cfm?
odino=883438&make= TOYOTA%20TRUCK&model=SIENNA&year=2000
Does anyone using 100% synthetic (not blend) motor oil and changed their oil at above stated interval also experiencing engine sludge problem?
I have a 2001 Sienna and I had my first oil change at 2K. I replaced with Mobil 1 oil & filter. I changed the oil 6 month later using Amsoil oil & filter. I have no problem. I changed from Mobil 1 to Amsoil because Mobil recently changed their formula in their production of Mobil 1.
Maybe using 100% synthetic motor oil might avoid sludge problem because synthetic oil can absorb a higher tempeture so the oil would not breakdown so easily. Any comments welcome and will definitely help all Sienna owners.
What amazes me is people spending a great deal of money on a vehicle and then all of a sudden they want to get cheap with the single most important thing you can do to preserve the life of it, change the oil faithfully and regularly. Now I know you are going to say, the manual says....... I know what it say's but how many of you followed the break in instructions word for word, how many drive the posted speed limit, or slow down to the suggested speed limit on a corner. We are all given a brain that offers us some flexability and the ability for common sense.
If all the 98' Siennas have the same engine, why don't all of them develop sludge? Why, beacuse something very unigue come's into play, owner treatment and attention.
> I am in the sales side of the dealership and
> while I can listen and ask things of the
> service guys, I don't deal with it on a daily
> basis.
Thanks. My experience with my Toyota salesman was great. My experience with the service department was characterized by accusation, contempt, and instant defensiveness. Unfortunately the salesman will suffer for the poor customer skills in the service department.
jmcdan
I have a 98 Sienna with 47,000 miles. I too found a thin layer of black gritty sludge in the oil fill hole. This black grit seems to be limited
to the small area at the oil fill hole. Why? No idea.
My question is what caused this grit? "
Is there some sort of a (black) filter in the fill hole that filters the oil ( dont know why it needs a filtration) before it enters the engine
block that we may be mistaking for sludge.
anyone working for toyota probably could take a look in a new sienna by opening up the cap of the oil filler hole and let us know. Or other owners maybe. No one has really addressed this point.
thank you
I have an oil change scheduled for tomorrow and will have someone take a look and hopefully explain why it would concentrate in the filler area. Cliffy said what I described was what sludge looked like. I've had oil changes around 3000 miles and used the dealership from day one, so based upon what Toyota is saying about proper maintenance it shouldn't be sludge.
i was told this black stuff is carbon build-up and i check other cars and i did see the same stuff. i also understand that the only way to find out for sure if you got sludge or not is to pull off your valve cover or you see puff of blue smoke from your tailpipe
That said, I had to find some humor in this hot topic. ..I was just thinking that IF the sludge issue really ends up being just a myth and mainly a side-effect of poor maintenance, Toyota owners are going to have some of the best maintained vehicles around ..maybe it's really a strategy by Toyota to keep it's cars regarded as the most reliable cars out there.. gotta try~
To relieve your stress, I would recommend getting an oil change now and ask the dealership to let you take a look under the valve cover. They will charge for this, but it will be worth viewing to ease your mind. Then, proceed with normal maintenance, preferably at 5000 intervals or less. Doing this, your van will do exactly what you expected it to when you bought it.
There's got to be someone out there that has experienced a real case of sludge with real proof of proper service. I'd sure be disappointed to be the first. On the otherhand, I would think Toyota wouldn't hesitate in correcting the problem if it did arise.
Since I have never really required warranty work from a Toyota dealership, I'm still uncomfortable in guessing if they really back their warranties.
just wondering coz i may need to adjust mine soon.
if you have, please provide whatever info u have.
thanks.
sounds like self-adjusting rear brakes which is not very common. i thought only VW's have self adjusting brakes.
i'll remove the drums again and have a look.
thanks again
1. Not only do these lucky owners with sludge get new cars to drive around for free, Toyota should pay them monthly salaries since these people are now "official sludge testers".
2. Since the entire reputation of Toyota now hinges on these chosen few, Toyota should pay for semi-annual Hawaiian vacations for these lucky few to make sure they provide nothing but glowing reports of their ownership experience.
However, you can't have your cake and eat it too, so here are additional conditions for participation. If, at the end of the test, that the participants agreed that properly maintained vehicles do not get sludge, and that sludge was his/her own fault in the first place, he/she would agree to the following:
1. Reimburse Toyota for the use of car for the one-year test period, the vacation, and the monthly salaries.
2. Pay for the entire bill of the original engine repair due to sludge.
3. Get his/her name published and publicly apologize to Toyota for false accusation.
4. Toyota reserves the rights to sue these people for defamation and loss of revenue.
It's only fair. (End of day dream.)
San Jose, CA