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Jaguar X-Type

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  • Here is an article from another site entitled "Jaguar Feels Growth Pains". It initially seems negative towards Jaguar's expansion plans, but then it turns to a positive note. It was kind of interesting, a lot about the X-TYPE:


    <http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0208/05/c01-553112.htm>


    Some quotes:


    -"Jaguar's sterling quality reputation, the result of a decade of hard work, took hits late last year when the all-new X-Type compact sedan drew complaints about vibrating propulsion shafts, rocking seats and temperamental trunk latches -- all of them now fixed." <-- As I have been saying for the longest time, ALL PROBLEMS WITH FAULTY X-TYPE'S DRIVESHAFT NOISE ETC. HAVE BEEN FIXED! Do you guys believe me now?


    -"Derision from competitors [!] and Jaguar purists followed, capping a whispering campaign that labeled the X-Type as little more than a dressed up Ford Mondeo with which it shares some parts. Yet 2-liter X-Types, aimed at the upwardly mobile, helped push Jaguar sales in the United Kingdom up 104 percent through June."

    Also, AutoWeek found that "the chassis itself shares only six small panels with its blue-oval counterpart" and that "this particular parts-sharing, it turns out, only gives the Jag its chassis 'hard points' and its engine blocks, but not much else".


    -"A recent rough patch during the launch of the X-Type appears to be smoothing out and sales are beginning to exceed forecasts. A face-lifted S-Type, criticized at its debut a few years ago for an interior too reminiscent of a Lincoln, now looks unmistakably Jaguar and it's showing in the sales figures."


    -"Through June, Jaguar sales in the bellwether U.S. market were up 62.1 percent over last year, easily outpacing rivals Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Lexus. In western Europe, sales of Jaguars surged 66.1 percent, compared with 3.6 percent for Audi, 0.4 percent for BMW and flat sales for Mercedes."


    -"Less than two years away is an X-Type all-wheel drive wagon, called a "sportsbrake" by company insiders. A six-cylinder diesel engine for all Jaguar sedans is under development by Ford engineers in Aachen, Germany, and is expected to debut in 2004. Both innovations are expected to drive Jaguar sales sharply higher, especially in Europe."


    -"Since its introduction, residual values on leased Jaguars are rising while those of several German rivals are staying flat or declining."


    -"Jaguar had the misfortune of scheduling the X-Type's U.S. launch for September. Would-be consumer enthusiasm dampened by the terrorist attacks ebbed even further when customers learned many of the X-Types sitting on dealer lots were pricey 3-liter sport models, not more modest 2.5-liter versions with more affordable lease rates.

       Jaguar acknowledged it badly miscalculated and moved quickly to correct the error. But dealers started reporting quality problems in the early X-Types, which company executives blame for Jaguar's two-place slide from the upper reaches of the influential J.D. Power and Associates quality rankings.

       Since then, X-Type sales have continued to climb. Overall, the 18,662 X-Types sold through June are fewer than 100 cars behind the Audi A4, an established model in the segment. BMW sold 34,253 3 Series sedans and Mercedes sold 22,746 C-Class sedans in the same period.

       'We've had our glitches -- hands up to those, we're not perfect,' says Robert Dover, who heads the operating committee overseeing Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston Martin. 'Jaguar is a challenger. We're challenging the established order.'"

  • rsunicorsunico Posts: 82
    I'm contemplating purchasing my first Jag (x type). Would appreciate recommendations on dealers in the Tri-State NYC area. Also ideas on what I should pay (how close to invoice). I only want a plain 5 speed, 2.5 with moonroof and seat warmers. Thanks!
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Posts: 4,883
    Check Montclair Jaguar. Talk to Paul DeBlois.

    Cheapest deal I have heard of is about 1,500-1,700 over invoice.

    Bill
  • Jaguar's "London Calling" Sales Event special is going on right now, if that can help you in your purchase at all. If you are looking at a 2002, the seat warmers would require the weather package and the moonroof would require the premium package...

    Good news for you! The 2003 models which are out now have reorganized option packages, so the moonroof and split-folding rear seats are set in the "X0" package for a much lower cost than the entire X1 premium package, and the weather package has been deleted. I'm not totally sure, but I believe that seat warmers can be had as their own option now. This significantly lowers the price of the car since options that you don't want are no longer bundled with the ones you want. The in-dash CD player should also be standard equipment. If you wait, a wood-trimmed steering wheel will also be made available a little later in the year. Check out brentwoodvolvo's recommendation, he's one of the most knowledgible people here. Good Luck and Have Fun!
  • knhillknhill Posts: 33
    I see that the S-type has switched to ZF for their auto. Is the X-type auto a Ford unit? Also, who makes the X-type manual and is this unit the same as the S-type manual?

    Thanks
  • The X-TYPE's automatic transmission is made by Jatco.

    I don't believe that the manual transmission is the same one as in the S-TYPE. It could be though.
  • jonty12jonty12 Posts: 101
    ... is a Getrag. i would assume the 5 speed in the new S-Type is also. see this article:


    http://www.just-auto.com/features_detail.asp?art=444


    (just confirmed on http://www.us.jaguar.com/default.asp?levels=3110 that the S-Type manual is in fact a Getrag)

  • rsunicorsunico Posts: 82
    Thanks for all the tips on where to purchase the Jaguar! I look forward to posting more post-purchase.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,730
    Isn't the X-type engine still transverse mounted with a transfer case to get power to the rear wheels? If so, then it takes a totally different tranny than the RWD S-type. The S-type, LS and Tbird use a non-overdrive Getrag (same as BMW) but since that's a RWD tranny it's probably different than what's in the X-type.
  • I checked just yesterday night. The X-TYPE's manual transmission is indeed a Getrag unit. I still don't know if it's the same Getrag unit as in the S-TYPE however. I had the same thoughts as you, since S-TYPE is RWD and X-TYPE is AWD. I'll do some more research...
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,730
    Just open your hood and see if the engine runs North-South or East-West. If it's still E-W as I think it is then it can't be the same tranny. It won't fit. I'm sure it's a Getrag, but not the same one as in the RWD vehicles.
  • knhillknhill Posts: 33
    So the auto is Jatco. I'm surprised and pleased that the auto is not a Ford. I believe Getrag has a good reputation for quality. How is Jatco's reputation for quality? I know they are Japanese and used in some Mazdas.

    How do you auto people like your Jatcos? How do you manual people like your Getrags? Anybody feel like starting an argument whether I should buy an X-type or an S-type?
  • We all know that the X-TYPE is a world class car - just as all Jaguars are, and always should be. But did you know of the crazy places that Jaguar tested the X-TYPE to make sure it is such a great car? Jaguar took the X-TYPE all over the planet in search of the most punishing test conditions. Here is a small compilation of some of those test sites:

    U.S.A.
    -Hot weather testing in Arizona.
    -Suspension testing in New York and Dearborn.
    -Emissions and economy testing in Florida.

    Canada
    -A dedicated engineering site in the harsh winter conditions of Timmins, Ontario.

    Mexico
    -High altitudes and rough roads provided tough tests.

    South America
    -Jaguar's plans for testing here were hampered by red tape.

    Spain
    -Hot, dry conditions at Idiada were ideal for testing brakes including brake squeal.

    United Kingdom
    -Crash and durability testing at Whitley, Millbrook, Gaydon, and MIRA.

    Belgium
    -Tight security made Lommel perfect for running undisguised cars on the track.

    Germany
    -Nürburgring handling tests.
    -Wind tunnel work in Cologne.
    -High-speed midnight Autobahn runs!

    Sweden
    -Snow and ice help develop brakes and winter handling dynamics.

    Austria
    -Brake fade testing is done at Grossglockner.

    Italy
    -Wind tunnel testing at Pininfarina!
    -High-speed testing on the Nardo bowl.
    -Tire testing at Pirelli's Lombardy facility.

    Japan
    -Traffic handling and heat testing.

    Australia
    -Hot-weather testing transferred here during the European winter.

    (And all that the Cadillac CTS has claims to is the Nürburgring - HA!)
    __________________________________

    In other news, I found scans from a 68 page "book" created by the European Autocar. The different reviews were a tribute to the X-TYPE. It had articles covering everything from the great lengths Jaguar went to to disguise the car before introduction to what training the workers who build the cars undergo. They also drive the car in a variety of places (some tests were of prototypes), from the deserts of Arizona to the frozen glaciers of Iceland. To sum up what they thought of the X-TYPE:

    "If Jaguar is genuinely going to take the desirable compact saloon class by storm, then it needs to create a car with nothing less than genius running through its veins.
    Machines like the 3-Series and Mercedes C-Class will not be seen off without a fight. But genius, if the development mule I've just ridden in is anything to go by, could well be what we're about to get.
    When they discover how good the X-TYPE is, I suspect you'll be able to hear the accountants in Munich and Stuttgart weep to begin with, before they break down completely. Because as far as I can tell, the X-TYPE could be that significant for Jaguar...
    ...building a car better than the 3-Series was a natural priority."
  • These guys liked the X-TYPE the best out of its class. It's not a terribly recent article, but it is a nice read.


    <http://www.racecar.co.uk/roadtest/xtyperoadtest/main.htm>

  • desertguydesertguy Posts: 730
    Hey jagboyxtype, you're just partial to that review because all the pics show a carnival red car right?
  • pluskinpluskin Posts: 79
    The X-type manual transmission is shared with the Ford Mondeo. Its not shared with the S-type.
  • Of course. Obviously that journalist had excellent taste!
  • "There is a choice of gearbox: a five-speed manual or a five-speed self-shifter, both of them new. The manual is a unique variant of a Getrag design, said to offer a precise, low-effort shift action; the noteably compact auto is from Jatco in Japan."

    The manual is confirmed not shared with the S-TYPE. If it is shared with the Mondeo, then it is a unique variant of that transmission as it had to be setup for AWD.
  • pluskinpluskin Posts: 79
    Don't get me wrong. I think the X-type's manual is a perfectly suitable unit, and is exactly the sort of thing that should be carried over. But the Xtype manual is a MTX75 used in Mondeo's (and Focus's as well I believe). X-type's AWD uses a separate transfer case and does not need a unique transmission.
  • That was just a quote I pulled from some magazine (see the " and "). I've also just seen another article say that it is the MTX75 transmission. Either way, it seems to work well in the car.
  • Okay, I have a question now. After a moderately fast drive (freeway and some high-speed winding roads), my X-TYPE's engine was naturally quite hot (but not hotter than usual, the temp gauge reads right at the half-way mark and always does when or right after the engine has been used). And after use, I'd always turn the car off and have everything turn off - it would be completely silent. Well, today, I turned the key to position "II" just a few minutes after parking and turning the car off to check all of its gauges and the trip computer, and after I had, the X's huge cooling fan turned itself on. I turned the car completely off and removed the key but the engine cooling fan stayed on. I got out and put my hand over the grille and could feel cool air being sucked into the engine compartment. The fan would come on if I'd put the key in and turn it to position II or higher, but it would always turn itself off after I'd remove the key. This time, no matter what I did, it just stayed on, cooling off the engine. Now I know that our S-TYPE does this, but the X-TYPE never had before. How does everyone else's cooling fan work? Does everyone else's stay on after removing the ignition key? And does everyone else's come on when the key is turned to at least position II after the engine has been heated (e.g. after a drive).

    What I think may have happened was that some of the cooling water in the engine heated a bit after I turned the car off as it was just sitting in a hot engine. As I turned the accessories on, but not the engine, some of that hot water went past the engine temperature monitoring sensor and it decided that the engine was hot enough to need to be cooled down. The fan has never had a "mind of its own" before though, and I was just wondering how everyone else's X-TYPEs work in terms of that fan. The car still runs perfectly. I'm going to see if the fan starts doing this regularly, as the S-TYPE's does to cool the engine and flush the cabin of any unwanted odors, etc. Thanks.
  • Desertguy informed me on another board that Jaguar dealerships have been activating the option on X-TYPEs to have the cooling fan run after the car has been turned off to prevent overheating from occuring. It works the same way as on the other Jaguar models and is computer controlled, using heat sensors, etc. to determine how long to run the fan to cool the engine. The dealerships are doing this whenever the cars are being brought in - I just had the car in for a 1,500 mile oil/filter change service (I didn't take it in for any problems, I'm just babying the car). The car seems to be alive since it controls the fan now even when it's "off", and I'll probably have people telling me that I left the Jag on when I park it :-) It's actually quite nice as it flushes out the old interior air as well, and you can feel the cool air being sucked into the grille and air scoops and hot air being jetted out from underneith when outside the car. Dealerships are doing this without having to be asked and I believe all they have to do is switch on a little code in the computer. Next time you go in for a service, your car will probably also come back with this nifty new system.
  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    Someone at work finally passed along the June 24 issue of the trade magazine Automotive News. There was an interesting article which is sure to stir some debate.

    The article was titled "Mass luxury: Folly or savvy business? As automakers push cheaper models, they endanger brand value."

    The article basically focuses on the X-Type, and how many industry analysts consider the car a mistake for Jaguar the brand.

    Some quotes:

    "'Jaguar sees quick money to be made in diluting the brand, and they don't see the long-term problem,' warns Jim Twitchell, a University of Florida professor of English and advertising, and a specialist in luxury branding. '...They are taking a great brand story and (squandering) it away.'"

    Later Twitchell says Jaguar is "...bending over a dollar to pick up a dime....you don't change who you are when you buy a Jaguar X-Type. You own a cheap version of what's already out there..."

    "In a study of the X-Type's cost to Jaguar, FutureBrand, an international brand consultancy in New York, estimates that the car has erased $637 million, or 17.5 percent, of the $3.635 billion in Jaguar brand value that existed before its launch last year." Part of the loss in value is based on Jaguar's strength and stability vs. other brands in the same class.

    "'To do proper brand management, you have to do the product right,' said Steve Saxty, executive director of the automotive practice at FutureBrand. 'Clearly, people are getting it wrong. The world has turned against Jaguar because the product doesn't deliver,' he said. 'There is no excitement about the X-Type.'"

    The article goes on to say that the X-Type is selling well, but at the expense of losing sales to the more expensive Jaguar models. Although Mercedes has a cheaper car in the C230, that car is only slated for worldwide sales of 18,000 vs. 100,000 for the X-Type. Therefore, the C230 will not dilute the Mercedes brand like the X-Type will with Jaguar.

    "Those elite brands can effectively move downmarket if the cheaper products still occupy a premium position in the new segments they enter" says Susan Jacobs, president of auto consultancy Jacobs & Associates. "Jaguar is smothering their cars with incentives to get the products moving. That hurts the brand more than the vehicles themselves..."

    "'What hurts Jaguar most is that it is a brand without a strong set of loyal buyers,' said David Martin, president of the InterBrand consultancy in New York. 'When Mercedes launches an automobile, it's relative to a large pool of goodwill, so it doesn't degrade the franchise that much,' Martin said. 'But a brand in flux like Jaguar can be savaged by one bad move.'"

    I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with the article. I just wanted to pass this along.
  • While MB may not expect to sell as many C230s as the X, the C230 is so ugly IMO that it has a disproportionately large negative effect on MB image. Furthermore, MB has been increasingly sprinkling cheaper and cheaper interior bits amongst their entire lineup which may have a more lasting impression among consumers. I don't think Jag has decontented their entire lineup the same way.
  • jonty12jonty12 Posts: 101
    the other thing to remember is that in order to compare numbers to the x-type, you would have to add up C230, C240, and C320 numbers, and those are far more than the x-type numbers. the author is skewing data to his/her agenda. why only choose the c230? the 240 is priced the same as the 2.5 x, and the 320 is priced the same as the 3.0 x. let's compare apples to apples here. i don't even have to begin talking about the number of 3-series bmw's whether they be 330, 325, 320, etc.
  • You guys! I read that article way back some time around March before I even got my X-TYPE! That article is terribly outdated. Besides, I'm sure lenscap accidentally (you know, totally by mistake) left out all of the quotes in defense of the X-TYPE and the entire "entry level luxury sport class". From what I remember, the whole article was about how the X-TYPE would destroy Jaguar, and how they're going to sell too many of them, and how prestige will be lost and yada yada yada...! The whole article was quite laughable, there's no reason to get angry at all.

    Here are some counter statements to some of the article's quotes anyway:

    -"'Jaguar sees quick money to be made in diluting the brand, and they don't see the long-term problem,' warns Jim Twitchell, a University of Florida professor of English and advertising, and a specialist in luxury branding. '...They are taking a great brand story and (squandering) it away.'"

    Well, since the X-TYPE was made to attract new buyers to the Jaguar brand who will "upgrade" to higher Jaguar models, there doesn't seem to be any "long-term problem" at all, Mr. Twitchell. It actually appears to be quite the opposite. That new XJ8 looks mighty appealing to me, and I drive an X-TYPE!

    -Later Twitchell says Jaguar is "...bending over a dollar to pick up a dime....you don't change who you are when you buy a Jaguar X-Type. You own a cheap version of what's already out there..."

    First, any idiot who buys a car to "change who he or she is" probably doesn't even diserve a car in the first place. Secondly, there is a difference between the words "cheap" and "inexpensive". Many people have forgotten this and are replacing the longer "inexpensive" with the shorter and easier to say and type, "cheap". However, my answer to the quote is "Yes", the X-TYPE is a less-expensive version of what's already out there: It is a very nicely priced Jaguar (and unless it was the very first Jaguar, it cannot be something that is not already out there).

    -"In a study of the X-Type's cost to Jaguar, FutureBrand, an international brand consultancy in New York, estimates that the car has erased $637 million, or 17.5 percent, of the $3.635 billion in Jaguar brand value that existed before its launch last year." Part of the loss in value is based on Jaguar's strength and stability vs. other brands in the same class."

    So, that would be why, and I quote from a recent article from August 4, 2002, "residual values on leased Jaguars are rising while those of several German rivals are staying flat or declining" largely in part due to the introduction of the X-TYPE. The only way for that to happen would be for demand for Jaguars to be picking up, and in turn "brand value" would be rising. Hmmm, looks like FutureBrand's estimates were off a bit.

    -"'To do proper brand management, you have to do the product right,' said Steve Saxty, executive director of the automotive practice at FutureBrand. 'Clearly, people are getting it wrong. The world has turned against Jaguar because the product doesn't deliver,' he said. 'There is no excitement about the X-Type.'"

    Really, no excitement? People against Jaguar? That's why there were many thousands of pre-orders before the car even debuted - right? That's why when the car did debut, Jaguar's sales went up 104 % in parts of Europe and up 62% in the U.S. as of June 2002! That's why it's impossible to get vehicles with in-high-demand options without ordering them from the factory directly. That's why "Nine out of 10 X-Type buyers are new to Jaguar" and "Since then, X-Type sales have continued to climb. Overall, the 18,662 X-Types sold through June are fewer than 100 cars behind the Audi A4, an established model in the segment". Again, FutureBrand is wrong. On top of that, that's also why the X-TYPE dominates an unheard of 65% and 67% of the entry-level/mid-luxury class in sales for Great Britain and Italy respectively. I'm sure the people at Jaguar are excited too.

    -"The article goes on to say that the X-Type is selling well, but at the expense of losing sales to the more expensive Jaguar models. Although Mercedes has a cheaper car in the C230, that car is only slated for worldwide sales of 18,000 vs. 100,000 for the X-Type. Therefore, the C230 will not dilute the Mercedes brand like the X-Type will with Jaguar."

    Yes, the X-TYPE did take sales from the other Jaguar models, but its sales outweigh the sales of the other Jaguar models had they not had some sales taken by the X-TYPE and had the X-TYPE not been introduced. Sales-wise, the X-TYPE has been a great success for Jaguar and in what the other Jaguar models lost to the X-TYPE in sales, the X-TYPE made up for and more, as well as taking sales from competators (again, 9 out of 10 X-TYPE buyers are new to Jaguar). Also, let's not forget that the X-TYPE is a fine Jaguar saloon, and that Jaguar has been making saloons like it and the XJ and the S-TYPE for its entire existance. It really isn't a radical departure from any of the traditions or values that Jaguar holds dear. It does introduce new technology and new buyers, but all of that is good for Jaguar. Also, when Jaguar starts selling 200,000 total cars a year globally, that number is still very exclusive when compared to the 500,000 BMW 3-Series that are sold alone in one year; 100,000 X-TYPEs is not a lot. Also, Mercedes-Benz could sell just one C230 hatchback and lose more "brand prestige" than Jaguar with the X-TYPE because the C230 hatchback is a radical departure from traditional Mercedes-Benz values. The X-TYPE is a smaller Jaguar saloon in size and that's about it, everything else is there; the C230 hatchback is, well, a hatchback for Heaven's sake! But even then, if Mercedes-Benz wants to enter a new market and expand, why should we hold that against them, or BMW with the 1-Series? (BTW - Jaguar isn't going that low in the market with $47,000 X-TYPEs for sale v. $25,000 M-B's and $20,000 BMWs).

    -"Those elite brands can effectively move downmarket if the cheaper products still occupy a premium position in the new segments they enter" says Susan Jacobs, president of auto consultancy Jacobs & Associates. "Jaguar is smothering their cars with incentives to get the products moving. That hurts the brand more than the vehicles themselves..."

    The only incentive is the "London Calling" special, which is just a 2002 model clear out so that the 2003's can come in. "London Calling" ends Sept. 3, new 2003's arrive Sept. 5 - Hmmm. Also, I think that everyone here has heard the complaints about how the good lease rates, etc. are only good on "stripper" versions of the cars and we all know that options add up quickly. Besides, who isn't giving incentives on their cars these days? Jaguar's certainly not smothering their cars with them, and they are moving into premium postions in their cars' markets (especi
  • especially Europe with domination of over half of some of the market segments).

    -"'What hurts Jaguar most is that it is a brand without a strong set of loyal buyers,' said David Martin, president of the InterBrand consultancy in New York. 'When Mercedes launches an automobile, it's relative to a large pool of goodwill, so it doesn't degrade the franchise that much,' Martin said. 'But a brand in flux like Jaguar can be savaged by one bad move.'"

    Remember that Jaguar had been selling only 2 models for the last two decades though. The $60,000 XJ saloon and the $70,000 XK/XJS coupe/convertible. The average age of a Jaguar on the road in 2001 was 15 to 20 years old and that of course included new S-TYPEs. People couldn't afford to buy another Jaguar when they'd pay that much for a car, and buyers of the XJ and XK are historically much older than X-TYPE buyers - who will have a chance in life to buy another car both because they are younger and because the car is a bit less expensive. Jaguar is creating loyal buyers with their new cars, and Mercedes-Benz is actually gaining none if there is any truth to the following quote: "Through June, Jaguar sales in the bellwether U.S. market were up 62.1 percent over last year, easily outpacing rivals Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Lexus. In western Europe, sales of Jaguars surged 66.1 percent, compared with 3.6 percent for Audi, 0.4 percent for BMW and flat sales for Mercedes".

    Jaguar also only has around 150 dealerships in the entire U.S. It has 3 in Mexico and a few more in Canada. For the X-TYPE to sell so well with much less than even half the number of dealerships of its competators speaks for itself.

    In conclusion, that old article was nothing but an "Its the end of the world" cry in a futile attempt to deride the X-TYPE and Jaguar. And with the way things have actually been going for both the X-TYPE and Jaguar, things look pretty bright to me.

    "Jaguar is a challenger. We're challenging the established order."
  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    A few comments:

    1. There is no possible way you read the article I mentioned in March. The article, which as I said was in a June 24, 2002 industry magazine, contains sales data through the end of May. It was not even written in March.

    Further, Vic Doolan is quoted in the article and is mentioned as being the President of Volvo Cars NA. He was not named to that post until June 2002 (prior to that he was Executive Director of the Premier Automotive Group), again proving the recency of the article.

    2. According to the article, Jaguar had been using incentives to move their cars prior to London Calling. In fact, the article mentions Jaguar's strategy of moving cars by heavy discounting as similar to the techniques used by Infiniti up until this year (Infiniti has since stopped the practice).

    3. The article contained virtually no positive comments (ones you claim I left out). There were some positive notes, but most came from Mike O'Driscoll, president of Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover NA. So yes, I did leave his comments out because they are biased and not independent.

    4. You question FutureBrand's quantification of brand values. They are based on three variables: its forecast of the brand's financial performance, its assessment of the role of the brand in driving profit or cash flow, and its assessment of the finacial strength and stability of the brand vs. brands in the same class.

    5. I didn't want to interject my opinion on the article, but for the most part I disagree with it. I feel Jaguar had no choice but to move "downmarket" and capture younger buyers with cheaper cars. Further, I don't even feel they have gone "downmarket" since the X-Type is still $30,000+. I do disagree with BMW and Mercedes thinking of selling $20,000 cars.

    So, despite your negativity toward me I for the most part agree with you. As I said in my first post, the article was controversial and would surely stir debate.
  • I first viewed the article in dispute on the internet - before it reached the trade publication of which you speak. I will try and find the initial version of that article on the net, but I believe the link I have has since been severed and the article removed. Amendments are made to articles when displayed in different locations/formats: One of the last paragraphs in the "First Drive" of the Edmunds article on the X-TYPE is also located in a full-length review on the site autobytel.com and also can be found in the X-TYPE review located at womanmotorist.com, etc. The internet version of a Car&Driver X-TYPE comparison has many amendments from its initial paper printed version (changes in the actual text, not just mis-measured numbers). Again, I will try to find the version of the article I initially read which I read before I got my car - in March.

    "2. According to the article, Jaguar had been using incentives to move their cars prior to London Calling. In fact, the article mentions Jaguar's strategy of moving cars by heavy discounting as similar to the techniques used by Infiniti up until this year (Infiniti has since stopped the practice)."

    I used the "London Calling" as an example for today. That article was old as I have said. Today, the only incentives are the "London Calling" (expires September 3rd) and a good lease rate on the new 2003 S-TYPE, with the special lease rate expiring September 30th. However, at the time when I first saw the article, the only incentive was a special lease rate on 2.5 litre X-TYPEs ($349 per month for 39 months or something like that) - now over or ending at dealerships. You can go here: if you do not believe me. See "Jaguar".

    "3. The article contained virtually no positive comments (ones you claim I left out). There were some positive notes, but most came from Mike O'Driscoll, president of Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover NA. So yes, I did leave his comments out because they are biased and not independent."

    Here is what you just said. I have emphasized my perspective:

    --The article contained virtually no positive comments (ones you claim I left out). There were some positive notes, but most came from Mike O'Driscoll, president of Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover NA. So yes, I did leave his comments out because they are biased and not independent.--

    Yes, I do remember many of the positive comments coming from Mr. O'Driscoll, but not all of them came solely from him as you would like to make us believe. The article was meant to give the views of those who believed the X-TYPE would hurt Jaguar v. Jaguar's beliefs about the X-TYPE and what it does for Jaguar's future. It was your opinion that O'Driscoll's comments were biased, however, by leaving out those comments for readers here, you left out half of the article and skewed the information you posted here to your own liking. You posted the equivalent of a half-truth in my opinion.

    "4. You question FutureBrand's quantification of brand values. They are based on three variables: its forecast of the brand's financial performance, its assessment of the role of the brand in driving profit or cash flow, and its assessment of the financial strength and stability of the brand vs. brands in the same class."

    I do not question them, I stated that they were incorrect with some of their estimates. I understood how their assessments work. And with those three variables, you would think that their information would be closer to the correct answer, but like a poor marksman, they keep missing the target. As I stated before, all FutureBrand has are estimates, where as the real world data for Jaguar and the X-TYPE speaks in their favor and against FutureBrand's predictions. "[X-TYPE] sales are beginning to exceed forecasts" was one of the latest quotes from the new article I found from August 4th, along with it mentioning how residual values for Jaguars are rising where competitors are in turn declining or staying flat. Jaguar's "brand value" has been rising with having more cars on the road v. less, even though the opposite would seem to be true in that situation. Also, "Halfway through the year, Jaguar is the fastest growing brand in the United States and Western Europe. Through June, Jaguar sales in the bellwether U.S. market were up 62.1 percent over last year, easily outpacing rivals Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Lexus." That's called demand, which FutureBrand gravely miscalculated in their Jaguar predictions.

    "5. I didn't want to interject my opinion on the article, but for the most part I disagree with it. I feel Jaguar had no choice but to move "downmarket" and capture younger buyers with cheaper cars. Further, I don't even feel they have gone "downmarket" since the X-Type is still $30,000+. I do disagree with BMW and Mercedes thinking of selling $20,000 cars."

    No matter how rude I may seem at times (and I'm really not trying to be - you have to kind of read my latest posts in a monotone kind of way), or how annoyed we can make each other, your opinions are always welcome, even when they differ from my own (!). I don't feel that Jaguar has moved "downmarket" either, by your reasoning and for another one. Along with the X-TYPE starting at $30,000+ as you said; to "move downmarket", a company would have to move all of their offerings to a lower "class" (for lack of a better word). Jaguar, with the X-TYPE, simply expanded its coverage of the luxury/luxury-sport class by offering a car in a slightly less expensive category of that class. They didn't decide to make cars only to compete in the "economy class" or "hatchback class", which would be "moving downmarket".

    As for Mercedes-Benz and BMW creating cars for anything less than the "entry-level luxury-sport" market, I don't necessarily disagree with them, yet I'm still at the "I wonder why they'd do that?" stage. They especially cause me to wonder what their market plans/predictions are as BMW has Mini for the $17,000 - 20,000 hatchback class and Mercedes-Benz is supposed to be the "higher" offerings for DaimlerChrysler, able to use Chrysler/Dodge (and Hyundai and Mitsubishi) for "lower" offerings in the teens-to-mid-$20,000 range. Premier Automotive Group has stated that Jaguar will not compete any lower than the "entry-level luxury-sport" class, as they have Volvo for that as well as for SUV's and Land Rover for SUV's etc. as well. I would think that Mercedes-Benz and BMW would try to "preserve prestige" by doing something similar and utilizing Mini and Chrysler/Dodge, Jeep, Hyundai, Mitsubishi. Remember that the BMW and Mercedes-Benz names were not deemed "prestigious enough" for the companies' ultra-luxury Rolls-Royce and Maybach level offerings - I don't see why a similar but reversed plan would not apply for below</i
  • the other end of the luxury market. Lexus will not go below the IS300 and ES300 offerings in the "entry-level" class as they have Toyota for that. However, Acura has with the RSX (even though they have Honda), but because of their offerings like the RSX, they are arguably considered lower on the prestige scale than Lexus and those other marques which will not create lower-than-entry-level offerings. Oh well, it's their choice and I don't really have a problem with them choosing to do so. Besides, in Europe, M-B has the little A-Class, a "micro" minivan-type vehicle below the C230 hatchback (and they're thinking of bringing the A-Class here); and Audi has the A3 hatchback.

    And to think that the "radical new Jaguar X-TYPE" could stir up so much commotion when all it did was complete Jaguar's saloon lineup and set Jaguar to double global sales while bringing in "the new Jag Generation" of buyers!

    Best Regards,
    Jagboyxtype
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